Olive grove of old trees in South of Italy. How to even start?

Mar 03, 2023 12:31:05

Hello!

I have a 3 hectares olive trees grove composed of very old trees. Mostly it's like in the picture I have uploaded, some parts I have a bit more space.

The place is in the South of Italy, therefore Mediterrenean Climates with hot dry summers and mild winter season with not much rain (mostly concentrated).
The soil is clay and sometimes even hard or rocky. Not much soil. In other places is a bit better. The land is mostly flat or at least 1-2 meters difference from one side of the land to the other.

I am thinking that with such a big space I should just let nature do its own thing and grow grass and maybe start considering planting a tree with herbs, bushes, flowers around. Maybe use a partial shade of the olive trees.

But I am not really sure. Should I first plant cuttings in a pot and let them grow at least one meter and then move it?

Do I need to have at least some compost for the trees since the soil is too hard?

Should I plant herbs around with seeds?

I am new to permaculture so I am learning a lot in few weeks and it's not like having a good soil in a rainy climate where you can just throw the seed and see what it happens.

Also having such big trees around it's very scary as I am scared of doing some mistakes.

On another note I would like to put lavender just below the olive tree. Maybe not even plants them In case I ruin the root, but just throw seeds around, throw some water and see what happens.

How should I approach this?

Thank you!

Mar 03, 2023 23:10:20

Welcome to Permies! Hopefully some people from your eco-system will have some ideas. Years ago, something I read suggested that one of the reasons Olive plantations had been planted was because the soil had been exhausted. That suggests to me that planting things that can be chopped and dropped to rebuild soil in place might be an approach.

Here on permies, a place to start might be Dr. Redhawk's excellent soil series: https://permies.com/wiki/redhawk-soil

Mar 04, 2023 15:07:17

What plans do you have in mind?

Mar 05, 2023 13:04:32

John C Daley wrote:What plans do you have in mind?

Basically we are going to be 4 people actively working on the site after our working hour. We have remote jobs therefore we are going to have plenty of physical energy available (and also a strong need to be physically active).

Wind is strong at NW and SW. We have clay terrain and just big olive trees around. The site is 3 hectares. Rains are low in summer and a bit higher in winter, but it is getting dryier every years.

I would like to have a part of the land used for vegetables which have to produce enough for diverse food for one year for at least 6-7 people (our parents and a child). I would also like to have chickens for egg productions which I may also sell or give it away for free if in abbundance. Then fruit trees and also oil production and olives from the trees.

Slope is <1-2m across the site, I still have to spend enough time to understand what's going on, mostly I will have my brother who can make reports of it.

I am thinking about cattle for milk production and grass grazing. But I may just use sheeps as I am not planning of eating meat. But that may change and I need to see what others would like as well.

I would also love to use a big part for restoration of the land with good soil and basically a forest that doesn't have to be productive. If in general I can monetize from over production that would be great as I would be able to buy more lands and try to make more forests with time. I am 30 years old, so I may have other 40 years of strong physical activity which I can dedicate to restoration and protection of the environment mostly as a part time activity but if it becomes full time because of over production that would be even more great.

So my steps would be:

1) Let cattles from neighbour eat the grass occasionally
2) Let woodchips which don't have any disease decompose in the ground (I am not sure about this, there is a too high risk of fire in the summer)
3) Wait for the house to be build there (which it is around 1-2 years)
4) Start knowing the site, maybe make some measurements and make a map, I would love to try to go there during an heavy rain events and afterwards and see what happens. How the land behave.
5) Make soil tests to see if the terrain needs NITROGEN or if ph is not good for the olive trees
5) Start planting perennials and trees and see what happens. Maybe out of the 3 hectares I would plant between olive trees on the S SW part of the site to start creating a protection from the wind from South which may dry the rain where there is rain.
6) After the season of olive in autumn and the start of rain I may prune the tree and mulch around the new planted trees.
7) If weed grows again let the cattle feed and fertilize the soild

At this point I may have moved into the house and I may have a more active role with the garden. I have to decide if I should make raised beds or not.

Also I really don't know how to design this for the winds, and which species would work without killing these centuries old trees. Can I use legume trees for chop and drop and mulch? How to avoid fires?

Mar 06, 2023 01:40:39

Well the plans are clear,
- develop the place,
- grow vegetables
Looking at your list can I suggest a better order of steps.
1 Start knowing the site
2 Make soil tests to see if the terrain needs NITROGEN or if ph is not good for the olive trees
3 research olive trees, feed, pruning, effect of cattle grazing
4 I would love to try to go there during an heavy rain events and afterwards and see what happens. How the land behave.
5) maybe make some measurements and make a map,
6 Start planning and researching perennials and trees
7 Would chickens survive there?
8 Plan house site with regard to whole block

Mar 06, 2023 03:04:22

I have holidayed in that region/climate a few times, and stayed on a few olive orchards. On thing I worked out was that some of the land management was focused on mitigating potential fire hazards in the dry season. It seemed to be the norm to cultivate the top inch of soil between the olive trees, for example, to maintain bare soil. I was told that this prevented the risk of runaway grassfires. There may even be local legislation about how you mitigate the risks.

You have already noted the hard, bare soil. I would expect that hundreds of years of bare soil and winter storms are a major factor.

I would be looking at techniques to prevent further loss of soil due to surface water flows, and anything you can do to build soil carbon.

Are you aware of vetiver grass? It is used as a densely planted hedge on contour, which effectively slows surface flows and traps sediment. It is used worldwide on sloping land to form natural terraces, for further cultivation. The roots and leafy mulch build soil moisture and carbon.

Mar 09, 2023 10:03:08

Welcome to Permies.
Learn to garden close to thé house while you're building.
Observe, the big place, speak to thé locals, try to find people who think similar.
Keep it small for now. Some raised beds. Grow in the half shade. Have fun while making all possible misakes. Learn from those.
Don't worry about soil pH, trees have been there forever.

Concentrate on water collection into IBC tanks connectéd to a pond with liner, chickens.
Visit organic farms, they invite Wwoofers often.
Visit local markets and ask around for organic.

https://youtu.be/vDjIuDpez5c
This man is in Italy now but north..
Check out synthropic farming
https://vimeo.com/146953911
It's what Antonio is doing in Dénia Spain. Hé has a blog on Permies about it.
https://permies.com/t/145856/Project-Intense-Food-Forest-Mediterranean

Mar 22, 2025 15:32:29

I like your approach. For the trees I would leave plenty of the small shots at the trunk and branch base to keep the juice running and avoid new dead wood, by accidental cuts.
Everything else about pruning and tree integrity comes with time. Better start slow and not do mistake. Don't bring a chainsaw, a simple pruning saw is enough 😉
For your hard ground you could introduce pioneer plants like mustard or line. They are both a pain in the ass to cut though, but they do the job well to crack the soil.

Get meta with me! What pursues us is our own obsessions! But not this tiny ad:

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