strange growth on the chicken's belly

Hello Everyone

I picked up this hen today to treat her foot for what I thought was bumble foot and found she had this growth on her belly. What is it? What can I do about it! Feedback is very appreciated as I am worried that this is serious

Yeka Sorokina wrote:Hello Everyone
I picked up this hen today to treat her foot for what I thought was bumble foot and found she had this growth on her belly. What is it? What can I do about it! Feedback is very appreciated as I am worried that this is serious

That does look awful!

It also looks like it *could* be scabbed over, so I'm not sure if it's an open wound with a swollen area that's leaking out or a swollen area with a clean edged wound that's scabbed.

If it's a swollen area behind a scabbed over wound, she had a nasty injury that seems to be healing.
Is she in pain? Is she doing all her normal chicken things? If her behavior hasn't changed appreciably, she might just be in the healing part of recovery and the swelling will decrease over time. You can give her some nutritious treats or poultry vitamins and let her go back to her normal life while keeping an eye on her.

If her behavior has changed, is she having trouble doing some aspect of normal chicken things? If she's not pooping, it's a HUGE problem. If she's not laying eggs, she might start back when she heals, but you have time to make up your mind about what you want to do. If she's not eating, she's very sick and will need care to heal from what might be wrong with her.

The wound has clean edges and she got it a bit ago. It looks like it might be slightly infected, or that the swollen part might be from her healing. Unless she's having some sort of problem, or the swollen part is very hard and hot, I wouldn't start by doing anything. I'd suggest you put her someplace you can keep an eye on her, just in case.

Hard and hot means there's an active infection and you may need to lance it, if it looks like it's putting pressure on her internally. Otherwise, supportive care by keeping her clean and dry, giving her good food and extra nutrition (poultry vitamins), and keeping her from getting too stressed out is the way to go.
Apple Cider Vinegar mixed into her water can help give her probiotics and vitamins/minerals - make sure you use a glass, pottery, or plastic water container.
Live yogurt is a good treat for the protein and calcium, and the probiotics.

Please let me know how she does.
Best of luck to you both!

Thank you Kristine I love the wait and observe option! I think in our society there is a tendency to just do something, which often is not needed, and may even have negative consequences. Because our hen is not acting healthy, we did soak her in an Epsom salt bath and removed the matter inside the lesion. I will include pictures of the matter we removed and the appearance of the wound after removal. This is another semi-complicated case of compound issues. This hen has one swollen foot (will include a photo) but no scab. We thought she had bumble foot and were going to treat that. But when we picked her up, we noticed the lesion on the belly. We also noticed that the swollen foot does not have a scab (will include a photo). The hen avoids bearing weight on the swollen foot. She eats, drinks and poops, but mostly stayed in one spot and had very limited activities, which could have just been because of the foot, but it was hard to know if it was the foot or the belly lesion (or both) that was reducing her energy and activity. Hence, we did decide to treat the belly wound even though it was not hot and did not seem like it felt tender to her. The matter we cut out was very, very hard, very difficult to remove because the edges were tight around it and we had to cut little pieces out little by little before it finally came out (will include photo). With examination of the wound after removal (will include photo), I am lead to believe that it was an abscess that her body tried to push out from a long while ago. If I understood you correctly, I think this was your sense from the initial photos. I think we will give her another Epsom soak for the belly and refresh the dressing tomorrow. What do you think? The removal was yesterday. I am thinking of giving her a day without being handled since it was a long procedure yesterday.

So now I am wondering what to do about her feet. I say feet because one foot is swollen yet has no scab and one is not swollen but has a scab (will include photo). We soaked them both and applied drawing salve to both. What are your thoughts? Do we even need to treat the foot that is not swollen? What about the swollen foot? Without the scab, I am not sure what it is and we got suggestions like gout and hornet sting, so not sure if soaking and drawing salve application are harmless if it is one of those conditions.

Thank you for your feedback!

Your poor hen! She's really had a hard time of it!

You are doing the right things, from what I see. And, yes. An encysted abscess is one of the things I was thinking of. It happens a lot in chickens, and gives them a better chance to recover. They are amazingly tough critters!

It looks like you might have gotten the source of the infection out of that wound. That's healthier looking tissue. Hopefully she'll start to feel better as the inflammation in her belly wound goes down.
You have her belly wound well in hand. Just keep treating with whatever you would use on an infected wound - salve to soothe and prevent infection and bandages to keep it from getting re-infected. Birds are hard to keep bandages on. You might choose to skip that part of it. As long as you are able to keep it protected, and the wound starts to scab over, she should be okay. Hopefully the infection will go down quickly. It's a smaller area than I had first suspected, but it's plenty big for a chicken!

Is that a claw or tooth that you got out of the wound? It's looks animal in nature and that's weird stuff! I wonder if she tangled with a cat?

Her feet are a problem. Her infected foot is obviously infected and painful. It needs soaking in Epsom salts to soften the scab/wound area, then you'll have to drain it and clean the wound tract. Go ahead and continue using the drawing salve. It's really hard to keep feet clean and I've heard of people using all sorts of things to help soak and treat foot wounds. Keeping her inside so you can monitor how well things are going, or finding a way to keep her feet clean so they can heal is important. Some people have used self-adhesive bandages to cover the scabbed areas, then change them out daily. I've never had luck with that.

I would go ahead and treat both feet. While it looks like her non-swollen foot is healing (that looks like healthy tissue next to the scabs), those are either pressure or puncture wounds and notoriously hard to heal in every critter, including humans. Using a salve and keeping both feet clean, and treating for the infection in the swollen foot is a good idea.

One of the more common ways to treat bumble foot is to put the chicken into a solution for soaking, and put a lid on the container that allows the chicken to stick their head out of the bucket/box. It makes for a silly looking situation, but it helps the parts that need treatment to get treatment while keeping as much stress as possible out of the equation. I've heard of people putting their "chickens in treatment" in places where they can watch the flock from a protected vantage point, or can watch videos. I know from past experience that medical treatments are boring, but I don't know what a chicken would find interesting, so can't offer any suggestions.  

Bumble foot, or generally injured feet that cause limping, tends to be caused by thorns, splinters, sharp rocks, or hard landing areas. I had a rash of trouble when I had chickens jumping from a tree to concrete blocks and finally just removed the blocks which solved the problem. I had another chicken who would jump from the coop to a pile of compost and get rose thorns and dewberry thorns in her feet until I started keeping those out of the compost. Unfortunately, some chickens seem to be more likely to get bumble foot, maybe because they have daredevil tendencies or like to jump on rough wood or sharp rocks. Chickens can be funny in an odd way.

I hope that she starts to show improvement soon. Soaking her feet in Epsom salts dissolved into water, using an old toothbrush or washrag to gently abrade her feet to clean them and hopefully remove the damaged tissue, source of infection, and anything else that might be stopping her from getting well, and then keeping her somewhere she can keep her feet and belly reasonably clean while healing takes place means that you have a few nasty days of strong-arming her into her foot soak and belly wound tending, but you'll know when she's feeling better.

I've always had the philosophy that every wound, illness, and health condition is one step closer to getting and keeping the healthiest flock possible. While you've had a bit of bad luck recently, and while it might seem horrible, you are taking very good care of your flock and learning and growing at the same time.  

She looks good, other than the obvious problem areas. She's probably very offended and would very much appreciate being left to her own devices - like a grumpy older lady who has been living alone and doing just fine, thank you very much - but enjoys getting special attention, especially as she heals and starts to feel better. I hope she heals quickly and gets used to being handled so you have a much easier time caring for her.  You got started well and  have been doing a great job with her,

I agree that "wait and see" observation isn't used as often as it could be. Many things in life seem scary and huge, but if you take a deep breath and wait a minute, it becomes much easier to handle. If nothing else, it gives you time to do some research, reference a book, or call someone. Very little in life has to be handled at full speed.
Now, there are things that are better headed off quickly. Cattle in the front yard, if they don't belong there, or don't belong to you, or ... are something that needs to have something done about it sooner than later, but you do have time to consider your options.
A few very obvious things require fast action. Outside of those things, you have the time to take a deep breath and think about it or take a "wait and see" approach.

Hi Kristine

Thank you so much for your reply! What we removed from the wound seemed like hardened pus. Some people said that it could have been an abscess related to pressure from the roost. The belly wound seems to be healing well.

I like the idea of a bucket with a hole for the head, it does seem less stressful than holding her in the bucket.

Wondering what you think about this, we have not lanced the swollen foot because it showed improvement from the drawing salve. Do you think this a viable course of treatment, or with swelling like that, drawing salve and Epsom soaks are not enough? And if you do suggest to lance it, where would you recommend lancing it since it doesn't have an obvious scab?

Thank you

Yeka Sorokina wrote:Thank you so much for your reply! What we removed from the wound seemed like hardened pus. Some people said that it could have been an abscess related to pressure from the roost. The belly wound seems to be healing well.

Howdy!
I'm so glad she's healing well.
Yes, that sounds reasonable. My chickens roost on everything from tree branches, sometimes in trees, to old roughened PVC (not something I recommend for anywhere with a a regular freezing weather cycle), and there are a few who roost on flat surfaces for various reasons. I try to give them options to avoid similar problems.
As longs as she is healing and has a chance to change her habit, she will be fine.

Yeka Sorokina wrote:Wondering what you think about this, we have not lanced the swollen foot because it showed improvement from the drawing salve. Do you think this a viable course of treatment, or with swelling like that, drawing salve and Epsom soaks are not enough? And if you do suggest to lance it, where would you recommend lancing it since it doesn't have an obvious scab?

Don't lance it if you can avoid it.
I have a distinct avoidance of causing/creating holes in perfectly good living things for no particular reason. If she's improving with the care and drawing salve, keep doing that and tending to her as you have been, but try to avoid opening any new wounds if you can.
In my opinion, lancing wounds is a type of "I can't clean the infection out any other way and if I don't clean the infection out and get rid of the irritation (whatever it is), this critter will never get better or will take a Very Long Time to heal" sort of operation. It's a way of going forward with healing when you have exhausted all other options.  If you can avoid it, please do so.

Keeping the wounded are as clean as possible, giving her the Epsom soaks and applying salve to her feet, making sure she has the benefit of good food and helpful healthy things to encourage healing are all great for her. You're doing a good thing and she's showing the benefits.

Because critters tend to use their feet a lot, no matter what type of critter they are, it can be really hard to heal a foot wound on just about anything. Since the goal is healthy tissue. anything that can be done to encourage that is great. Putting any lancing wound near the original wounded area, with the intention of pressing out (or "digging out") the source and initially infected area would be the goal of that particular operation. She has obvious scabs from the initial damage that caused the infection, so that's where I would start - maybe by soaking off the scab and keeping the wound open until the infection was drained off.
If you don't have to do that, I wouldn't.

Thank you for letting me know she was getting better. I'll continue to send Good Thoughts into the world!

Thank you Kristine

I love your approach! Do not put holes in a critter unless absolutely necessary!

The belly wound is doing great! The bandages are off, the redness wore off and the swelling is down from our last bandage change.

We will reassess the feet tomorrow and I will post a picture of what it looks like.

I am sad to report that the bumble foot stopped improving and the hen had poor appetite and low energy. She would eat, but not with much interest. We did decide to lance it. I will post a photo of the foot just before the surgery (unfortunately we only got the top of it). Sadly, after cutting out the scab and the firm tissue just deep to it, we could not find or feel the kernel no matter how much we squeezed and massaged Now I am concerned that we made a wound but did not address the issue. Have you ever tried to lance bumble foot but could not find or feel the kernel? I will probably start another thread on this tomorrow after the dressing change so I could share photos of post lancing. I am concerned we set her back by cutting her Any recommendations on what to do for this hen now?

Yeka Sorokina wrote:I love your approach! Do not put holes in a critter unless absolutely necessary!

Thank you!
It's a philosophy I wish my doctor's followed more. I figure the least I can do is try to minimize hole-making health care where I can.

Yeka Sorokina wrote:The belly wound is doing great! The bandages are off, the redness wore off and the swelling is down from our last bandage change.

That's wonderful news!
Chickens will heal amazingly fast if you give the the chance to. I'm so glad and I'm sure she's feeling much better.

Yeka Sorokina wrote:We will reassess the feet tomorrow and I will post a picture of what it looks like.

I greatly appreciate that. I'm sure she's doing well, but it's always better to err on the side of caution. Never rush to declare her well, unless she's being Very Insistent and needs chased and/or can avoid capture. I figure when birds are healthy enough to put up a good fight, they're probably feeling much better and I can really start thinking about releasing them, maybe into a release pen or some other protected space, but they don't need to be coddled at that point. That said, you are the decision-maker for when you think she's "good enough" and not in danger of a follow-up infection or complication.
I look forward to the day she returns to her place in the flock.

Yeka Sorokina wrote:I am sad to report that the bumble foot stopped improving and the hen had poor appetite and low energy. She would eat, but not with much interest. We did decide to lance it. I will post a photo of the foot just before the surgery (unfortunately we only got the top of it).

I'm sorry she stopped improving. The foot does look much better and your treatment bought you that time.
Lancing it was the right idea. I'm sure draining the foot will help.

Yeka Sorokina wrote:Sadly, after cutting out the scab and the firm tissue just deep to it, we could not find or feel the kernel no matter how much we squeezed and massaged Now I am concerned that we made a wound but did not address the issue. Have you ever tried to lance bumble foot but could not find or feel the kernel?

Yes, I have been there. It's very frustrating and I was convinced I had missed something.
I had done the surgery outside, with a reluctant assistant, using alcohol wipes and hand sanitizer to clean the foot and provide a more sterile environment. I had a flashlight tucked under my chin and a candle nearby for a quick and dirty sterilization of tools. It was not the best situation. The hen had a very obvious wound and swelling and I collected all the matter I could dig out from her foot onto an alcohol swab to verify. She was wiped down, bandaged, and returned to her roost. I took everything inside and spent way too much time looking through a cheap microscope trying to see anything of value. I found nothing. Pus, damaged tissue, dirt. I think it had been caused by a small thorn  (or something) that was washed out of the wound during the swabbing of her foot, but I can't be sure.

After I did some research, and watched the hen recover with no further problems, I decided that I had gotten the source of the infection out, whether I had identified it or not. It's been 18 months and that hen is still walking well and has shown no further signs of bumblefoot.

They tell you to look for a center of the infection because of the way the chicken's body deals with puncture wounds and things it can't otherwise remove. The "kernel" is just the invading object, layered with white blood cells and immune system response layers to try to put as much protection between the chicken and whatever it is. If there isn't a kernel in the wound, and you cleaned out the infection, her foot will heal. It might not have gotten to the point of getting layered - like the whatever it was in her belly wound.

With my flock, I did take the chance to clean their immediate area of potential problem spots as best possible. Even with the occasional chicken jumping off the roof of the house, they haven't shown signs of trouble. Concrete, sharp or rough sticks and thorns, rocks and other hard or pokey things can cause bumblefoot. All it takes is a bird stepping wrong and getting a puncture or pressure wound to start the process.

Yeka Sorokina wrote:I am concerned we set her back by cutting her Any recommendations on what to do for this hen now?

She has a wound on her foot. She had one before that had stopped healing. The current wound on her foot isn't as dangerous at this present point because, while it does contain tissue that was involved in a previous infection, the wound itself isn't infected at this time. She will have redness, heat and swelling because, as you pointed out, it's a new wound.
Unless/until the new wound develops an infection, it is healing. She wasn't healing before and is healing now. It's an improvement.  

I know it was a hard decision to come to and it was doubly hard to do. You did not jump into the surgery with glee in your heart. You made a decision to do the best you could for your hen, who is healing two other wounds that were infected at the same time she was fighting this wound. Since the two other wounds are not causing her problems, and she's healing from those well, she is better able to heal from this badly infected injury.
You reset her clock. You helped her to deal with the other problems and got her into a much better situation so she *can* heal from this with speed and vigor.

Thank you Kristine  =)

I really appreciate your support <3 I will post a photo of the belly wound from 6/17 so you can see how well its healing!

That looks *so* much better! She really is healing well.
You did so much for her and how well she's healing shows the care you gave her.

Congratulations!
(And I love the orange vet wrap on her foot! That looks a lot better, too!)

Iodine is the only thing I found works for bumble foot.

Twice daily if there is a fever, otherwise once a day until 10 days after last symptoms.   Otherwise it comes back in a month or two.

Chicken hates it because it stings.  

I use the human strength Iodine from the pharmacy.

Also clean bedding,  hen's choice if they need to isolate, and the usual.   Free choice chic crumbs in addition to regular feed also helps them keep up their strength.  If you have access to poultry vit mix some in one water and also give regular water and let them choose.   They know what they need.

**Update on Muffy**

So its been a year since Muffy's troubles began. Her belly healed very well after treatment, but her foot was getting much worse. I don't know if the treatment made it worse or if it would be getting worse anyway. We stopped all treatment and let nature take its course. Her foot got more and more swollen, it looked awful. By October the swollen bulge burst, drained on its own, and began to heal. Since then, Muffy has been getting back into full health. By Spring time, she was running, jumping, scratching and laying eggs better than the rest of her flock. Her vitality was so abundant that she even got broody a few weeks ago. Her foot is deformed after all she has been through, she limps a bit and cannot move her toes well, but she has found ways to flourish despite that =) This situation left me with trust for the innate ability to heal and discover vitality despite post healing changes from the previous state <3

I will include pictures of Muffy I just took today <3

Thank you Everyone who helped with input and support!

Thank you for the update! She is a beautiful hen.

Hi Yeka, we spoke on the parasites thread. I was very happy when you answered so quickly. As you were saying, they are fed layer pellets, well, here we have the cause of Muffy’s remaining problem and we also have the solution.

Looking at all the pictures, it does seem like Muffy had two different things going on with her feet: not only infection, but also articular gout. Now the infection is gone, but the gout is still there. If you do a search for “hen feet gout”, you’ll see many examples. Now it gets interesting, because one of the main causes of articular gout in chickens is too much calcium in their diet, and too much calcium is exactly what most of them get in their layer pellets. How can this be? The problem is the fact that the layer type feed is formulated for those chickens who lay DAILY and it has four times the amount of calcium of the ‘for everyone’ or ‘all-flock’ feed. The feed companies should put a big warning on their layer feed bags, something like “Dear customer, if your hen is not a daily layer, don’t feed this to her. If you do feed this to someone who doesn’t lay 365 eggs/year, that someone is going to develop articular gout in her poor feet.” (Getting snarky is the way I maintain my sanity.) Let’s look at the math, it’s very convincing. So a non-layer like a rooster needs one quarter of the calcium needed by the daily layer, the conclusion is that 25% is for general body maintenance. So 75% of the calcium in the layer feed is for egg laying needs. What if my hen lays around 120 eggs/year, then for eggs she’ll just need one third of 75%. 25% for general body maintenance + 25% for eggs = 50%. Wow she only needs 50% of the calcium in layer feed. A hen laying one day out of three gets twice as much calcium than she needs, a rooster gets four times. That’s very high toxicity. They are getting slowly poisoned, but… nobody cares about our chickens, except us, of course.

Gout wisdom here   https://poultrydvm.com/condition/gout

Yeka, please convince your friend to discontinue the layer pellets, they really did a number on poor Muffy and maybe not only on her. In another comment, I gave the example of a hen laying every other day, such a hen needs 25% + 37.5% of the calcium in layer feed, so the remaining 37.5% (more than a third!) is too much and toxic. ‘All-flock’ feed and a source of calcium offered separately is the way to go.

I think I have an idea about why she was so susceptible to these terrible infections, and I’ll be back soon, only now I’m drowning in raspberries here. It’s a freeze them or lose them battle against time.  



 

I know this is a year past, but worth replying to for people who find this thread later.

I had a few chickens in my flock that developed this type of sore on their breasts. I belatedly realised that they were choosing to roost in a spot where they rested on a corner of a piece of unfinished wood. It was putting pressure on the spot when they roosted. I rearranged the roost area of my coop and it cleared up.

Michael, yes, I too believe that the sore Muffy developed on her lower chest area was from the bar she roosted on. She currently sits on a flat surface when she sleeps

Lillian, thank you so much for your thorough message.

I have a few questions because I do not fully follow you. How come you believe that Muffy has gout rather than kernel remnants from old bumblefoot? I do not mean that she has an active infection now, I mean that the infection is gone and only the hard tissue from old pus remains. What are you seeing that makes you think this is not the case?

Two questions about calcium. My perspective on vitamins and minerals is that when they are lab-made, there may be issues with the body regulating them and that may actually cause more problems. So I see how layer pellets can cause health issues. My 1st question is about natural sources of calcium. Like soldier fly larvae. I make an assumption that with natural calcium sources, the body will know what to do and absorb or excrete as it needs. So if the hens eat soldier fly larvae, they won't have issues with excessive calcium even if they eat more than meet their daily requirement. Would you agree? My 2nd question is about the thin shells on half of the eggs of the birds in the flock. I assume that when the shells are thin, the bird is not getting enough calcium. What are your thoughts on thin shells and calcium?

Save those raspberries! I will hear back when you return from battle

Well, her feet look exactly like gouty feet + you confirmed that she’s been fed long term exactly what causes gouty feet, namely excessive calcium. This is a known “cause and effect”. Because since she started eating layer feed, she didn’t produce one egg/day.

Also, I saw this before, having similar conversations (not here) with people. A lot of us keep chickens as pets. The hens are not culled after 2 or 3 years like the livestock hens are culled, they’re allowed to get old. Being old, they lay less and less, maybe just once a week. Such a hen is still ‘a layer’, so the owner innocently, in good faith, feeds her ‘layer feed’. The hen develops gouty feet, like in the pictures at poultrydvm. I spoke with a few people like that… It’s the fault of the feed companies, obviously, for not labeling properly. People are very upset when they understand that their hen’s pain and suffering could’ve been easily avoided.

The layer pellets only cause issues for the hens who do NOT lay everyday, the daily layers really need all that calcium. Your questions are very interesting. If there would be too much calcium from natural sources, the first worrisome thing would be not getting enough iron, because 1- the foods rich in calcium are generally low in iron and 2- calcium and iron compete for absorption at the gut level. Also, hmm, wouldn’t they lose their appetite for something before that something became ‘dangerous’?

The other main cause of gout is too much protein. I knew about soldier fly larvae that they are a prime source of protein. Could the chickens be eating so many of them, and over long periods of time?

The thin shells can be caused by many many things, for example my hen had this from salpingitis. Let me recommend again the site poultrydvm.com. If you search by symptom “Egg shell(s), thin”, you’ll get a big list of potential causes, a real horror fest. But DON’T PANIC. The body can heal itself with proper nutrition, so by improving their diet, their health will be improved. Because looking at their menu “layer pellets, cracked corn, sunflower seeds, black soldier fly larvae (dehydrated), and whey (from homemade yogurt)”, the lack of phytochemicals immediately stands out. They don’t get greens, fruits, veggies? Phytochemicals are the health giving compounds in fruits & veggies; birds being omnivores like us really need them. They are not “treats” as the propaganda says, they are essential. Example of phytochemicals (they are also called phytonutrients): beta-carotene (in orange and green leafy vegetables), carotenoids (in pumpkin, carrots and bell peppers), capsaicin (in hot peppers, birds can’t taste the hotness), resveratrol (in the skin of grapes, blueberries, raspberries, mulberries), etc etc. If they rarely (or never) get to eat this kind of things, they can’t stay very healthy. If they’re allowed out to forage, that helps, but it’s not guaranteed to be enough, it all depends on where they forage. But the truth is that foraging is a death sentence. Hawks will appear out of nowhere, or a dog that escaped his invisible fence… We have a terrible hawk problem here so we have serious netting on top of the birds.

Hi Lillian

So interesting what you shared about the thin shells! I did assume that the only cause was low calcium, but it absolutely makes sense that there are other causes.

After reading that articular gout is the accumulation of uric acid crystals in the joints, I don't think that is what Muffy has. Her masses are not in the joints, they are in the soft tissues of the feet and are movable and not attached to joints.

I do have to say that if it was up to me, I would not give layer pellets. They are processed food and I don't think that's healthy for anyone. I like what you say about diversity and more of a range of plants. Muffy and her flock do have fenced land on which they forage, but what they have access to may not be that nutritionally dense for them. I would love to grow a garden for them so they could forage there. I also find that many chickens I took care of did not eat greens that were picked for them, they only ate the greens that they picked themselves. Not sure what that's about. I assumed that it's the way they eat greens, that the earth holds the plant while they rip little pieces off with their beaks, so when they can't eat the plants like is natural for them, they don't eat.

I do believe that when the chickens' natural tendency to forage is encouraged and the food they are provided is real food that is diverse, they will eat what they need and their food will nourish them and not contribute to issues.

It's possible that Muffy gets too much soldier fly larvae because she is a favorite so she gets extra treats