Newb needs help on Grapes

Okay this go around I want to get some help. In the future i would like to grow several types of grapes. Id like to grow them in high raised beds with a trellis behind it.

1) How deep should the raised bed be?

2) If you have a one piece trellis going straight up (6ft above ground give or take), once the vines reach the top what do you do? Trim/Cut them? Wind them back down?

3) I plan on each type of grape (Red, Green, Black etc...) but not sure of the specific ones. What components should my soil have? Place Mulch / Wood Chips on top of the soil?

4) How far apart should each "Bed / Type of Grape" be?

5) Im probably not going to be able to plant in the fall as i hoped (is there a time too late to plant?) When should i plant (assuming bare roots)?

Thank you all for any and all assistance,

1) I don't quite understand the "high raised bed with a trellis behind it" part...I think you mean the grapes will be planted in the raised bed and the trellis will be in the ground, not part of the bed. My grapes are in the ground and the trellises are at a comfortable height for pruning and picking and cultivation and they are obscenely productive. I'm not sure I'd encourage a shorter trellis (productivity may suffer) or a tall trellis (not able to reach easily).

2) I have some leaders trained to the wires and they get pretty woody. The fruiting vines branch off of that. I cut back almost to the wood each early spring. You can use strips of fabric to train young vines to wire and rebar or similar to train the verticals straight up.

3-4-5) My Concords get about half a day of midday sun and are LOADED with fruit. I'd look at nursery or extension websites to learn more about cultivation. We mulch with shredded wood. I'd like more guild plants under but it's also nice to just pile branches, trimmings, and barrows of mulch when we can.  

I love our grapes!! Have you checked Stark Bros site? They may have good starting tips for you.

Troy Docimo) wrote: Okay this go around I want to get some help. In the future i would like to grow several types of grapes. Id like to grow them in high raised beds with a trellis behind it.)

Hello Troy:  I provided the vines for the new arbor at Wheaton Lab so I have been asked to answer your questions.  I encourage you to go to your profile in the upper right corner and edit it so that your location and or growing conditions are listed with your name when you post.  With out that information it is hard to give you compleat answers.

1) How deep should the raised bed be?)

 Depends on your conditions.  Their productivity is affected by having a good layer of forest floor type soil for the surface roots but they also send down deep roots for water and minerals so container beds are not recommended.)

2) If you have a one piece trellis going straight up (6ft above ground give or take), once the vines reach the top what do you do? Trim/Cut them? Wind them back down?

That is a good point to train the vine along a wire to the next post.  Buds on the vine put out new growth each spring with one or more fruit clusters then more growth to which will repeat next year.  I find it best to snap off the extra growth unless I want to extend that vine.  I have mine at 8 feet high so the deer help doing that pruning. After harvest cut back unwanted growth to one or two buds.

3) I plan on each type of grape (Red, Green, Black etc...) but not sure of the specific ones. What components should my soil have? Place Mulch / Wood Chips on top of the soil?)

Research the soil that variety is known to be grown in.  You can maintain a mulched surface or grow a surface layer of annuals or perennials.

4) How far apart should each "Bed / Type of Grape" be?)

 What ever you want to maintain.  Grapes have a mandate for world domination; they will grow as far as they are allowed and if they detect a tree or something above they will jump to that and continue on up.

5) I'm probably not going to be able to plant in the fall as i hoped (is there a time too late to plant?) When should i plant (assuming bare roots)?

 Depends on your climate conditions. If posible give them dormant time to establish root growth before they start to push sap to the growing buds.  Avoid cutting a vine when it starts pushing sap to the buds or it will drip out a lot of sugars intended for new growth.

Thank you all for any and all assistance,

I’d concur with Hans about grapes and how your location would help get better answers.

I helped plant part of a friend’s 20acre vineyard in the Willamette Valley about a decade ago. We had the vines on 3ft spacing with 8ft between rows (to fit his tractor). His dad planted 40+ yrs ago on 8ftx8ft spacing, and that allows more air flow with less work than tighter spacing, but sacrifices overall yield and can be difficult to harvest due to so much growth. Many vineyards making high end wine go as tight as 3ft between vines with 3–4ft tiny-tractor paths. This requires a lot of maintenance. My buddy has recently stopped doing Vertical Shoot Placement (VSP) due to a lack of labor help (large scale Californian and French winemakers are bailing for Oregon and trying to monopolize labor to kill competition and then short change the workers when they are the only options). He now lets the vines do “the California Flop”, just growing over the top wire (6ft) and back down. This helps when they get excessive heat, keeping soil moisture and reducing sunburn.

We planted over the winter into spring. The key is to do it during dormancy. Vines planted later in spring had lower survival due to dehydration with less root development going into dry Pacific NW summers. We went into the ground, which is deep dark loam on the top of a hill (thanks Missoula flood!).I would only do raised beds if poor drainage is an issue or the soil is very poor. Grapes mainly need drainage, and do not require a lot of fertility. Too much nitrogen will even cause excess green growth and hurt fruiting quantity and quality.

At my place on very poor soil but on a slope that drains well, I just planted vines into the ground and top-dress with 2” of compost each year. I lost all of the unirrigated vines the forst year, but after two years the ones that got drip lines during establishment can now go without. Dry farming produces vastly better fruit. My buddy in the Willamette Valley never irrigates anything but his nursery beds, and I think he lost less than 25% while getting established. Much of that was to gophers, who were in return improving the soil’s aeration and water inflitration.

One great thing about grapes though is its very easy to make more with rooted cuttings. Self rooted vines will be much hardier, and if you are using non-European varietals, or are not in a wine-growing region,  phyloxerra is not a big concern. Getting phyloxerra resistant rootstock is really only necessary for vitus vinifera (European wine grapes) in areas where soil is transported from other vineyards via tires and boots.

My favorite table grapes are a variety called Mars. They taste like what grape soda is trying to imitate. Muscat tastes like what Fruit Loops are going for. Flame is a brilliant fuscia. Wine grapes taste amazing too, and when I spit the seeds after stripping a cluster with my mouth, I feel like I’m back on the mound pitching again. I think it’d be awesome if the SF Giants replaced both the pine rosen for grip
and chewing tobacco with local wine grape clusters. The ball would be purple if they didnt use whites, but the pitchers would have no problem with gripping the ball on those cold Bayside night games, and the tobacco chewers would get their oral fixation satiated with an anti-oxidant rich superfood;) I’d look into finding a fruit tree/vine cutting and scion exchange near you, or offer to help a vintner prune in January in exchange for cuttings.

My experience with raised beds indicates that they generally harm the plants grown in them, except in specialized circumstances, such as blueberries needing acid soil, sweet potatoes needing more warmth, or trying to grow over swampy ground or bedrock.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:My experience with raised beds indicates that they generally harm the plants grown in them, except in specialized circumstances, such as blueberries needing acid soil, sweet potatoes needing more warmth, or trying to grow over swampy ground or bedrock.

Can't say that I have much experience with perennials in raised beds, but I'm inclined to agree with you. I'm in a very cold climate where raised beds freeze solid in the winter. Roots would be happier in the ground.

I like raised beds for annuals.