I want to install a sweat lodge or sauna

I am not sure if this is the right venue for this posting, but I too would like to have a sauna at home: Not necessarily skiddable, [where would move it to?] but dry, for this reason:
The temperature in a wet sauna is typically only around 120 degrees, compared to 160 or more in a dry sauna. The low humidity lets the heat sink deeper into the body, increasing the health benefits. If you're attracted to saunas for their health benefits, you're probably better off with a dry one.
For me, a good alternative that would be much cheaper to build is a sweat lodge: See this interesting link:
https://thewildwest.org/lakotaindiansuseofthesweatlodge/#:~:text=The%20sweatlodge%20is%20made%20from,to%20form%20a%20dome%20shape.
I've come to this decision tangentially: I am presently studying PFAS and how to get rid of them in our bodies: PFAS are bioaccumulators but slowly leave your body in every secretion you can think of: [urine, poop, sweat, blood, ejaculate.] I hope I can say that in this forum. If you have tender ears, just know I didn't mean to offend.
So facilitating every excretion is the ticket.
Drinking pure distilled water before going in the sweat lodge would help. In the link above you can see how it is constructed and used. It is specified that it was built "close to the home so that it could be used even in bad weather" in the winter. But it is big and not readily moveable. At least, not by skidding: You can probably deconstruct it and move it if you must, but I think I would just keep it where I initially build it.
I have not quite figured out moving the hot stones into the lodge: "A hot fire was built outside and the stones would be carried inside".[Maybe a wheelbarrow or a steel bucket?] I have sand here, so I'd have to find the best stones to keep the heat longer while not being so large that bringing them in would be near impossible. The next County has a little granite.
There is such a thing as "sauna stones" but I bet that the shipping would be prohibitive. so I searched for stones that are best at retaining heat and lasting a long time. Inhabitat says :
"Marble and limestone are particularly good at absorbing heat, while granite is particularly good at conducting heat. Basalt and soapstone are particularly good at storing heat and releasing it slowly over a long period of time".
So basalt and soapstone look like the best candidates for this application. Unfortunately, they are also very dense; they are both heavier than granite, for example. Solid basalt weighs 188 lbs. per cubic feet! .
Yikes! I would get my sweating done just trying to move that brute!

How did the sauna turn out? Did the rocket heater work? I’d love to have an update with details!

Kim Swegar wrote:How did the sauna turn out? Did the rocket heater work? I’d love to have an update with details!

Kim, I'm not sure if you are answering me but at this point, as I said, I would like to have one at home. So I don't have one ...yet

Hi Cécile!

I’m from Finland. We are the sauna people!

About the dry sauna.. The first time I heard those words, I went searching. I found the same copy/paste from multible different sites, about dry sauna being the traditional Finnish sauna with higher heat than a ”wet sauna”.

None of them mentioned why we are actually heating the rocks in the stove (kiuas).
The rocks are there, because the idea is to throw water on them to form steam (löyly).

I have actually never heard about anyone just heating the sauna and sitting there without throwing the water to the kiuas to get the löyly.

The usual temperatures in a traditional sauna start from around 160F as you said. I have been in a sauna that had a temperature of 248F, although that was quite a short session.
I like my sauna at around 180F.

The Wikipedia articles about sauna and Finnish sauna are quite good! A lot of information about the health benefits too!
I didn’t find mentions about dry sauna from them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_sauna

Oh, and when you get to enjoy a sauna one day, I can really recommend beating yourself (or others) with a bundle of birch braches with the leaves still on them. It’s heavenly!

Saana Jalimauchi wrote:Hi Cécile!

I’m from Finland. We are the sauna people!
About the dry sauna.. The first time I heard those words, I went searching. I found the same copy/paste from multible different sites, about dry sauna being the traditional Finnish sauna with higher heat than a ”wet sauna”.
None of them mentioned why we are actually heating the rocks in the stove (kiuas).
The rocks are there, because the idea is to throw water on them to form steam (löyly).
I have actually never heard about anyone just heating the sauna and sitting there without throwing the water to the kiuas to get the löyly.
The usual temperatures in a traditional sauna start from around 160F as you said. I have been in a sauna that had a temperature of 248F, although that was quite a short session.
I like my sauna at around 180F.
The Wikipedia articles about sauna and Finnish sauna are quite good! A lot of information about the health benefits too!
I didn’t find mentions about dry sauna from them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_sauna
Oh, and when you get to enjoy a sauna one day, I can really recommend beating yourself (or others) with a bundle of birch braches with the leaves still on them. It’s heavenly!

Hi, Saana. Welcome to all the people of Finland, the Happy Sauna People. Indeed, if some folks know about building an efficient sauna, it is you guys!
248 F? Yikes, I understand why the session was short!
If you go back to that link, you will find that after our Native Americans bring hot stones back in the lodge, they *do* throw water on the hot rocks to get the löyly.
So what kind of stones/rocks to you place in the kiuas, and how far do you transport them to the sauna to make löyly?
I was not familiar with the flagellation with a bundle of birch branches with the leaves on them. How hard? [I assume just to make the skin red? harder? is there a religious ritual behind the flagellation? like some groups of Christians and Muslims do? or does it feel that good? [I am not into masochism, and this girl won't take a beating without dishing one out] .
I was thinking placing it close to my little pond so I could quickly cool down.

Jennifer Richardson wrote:Josiah and I are discussing our design for a skiddable rocket sauna at Wheaton Labs.

It will be a dry sauna, approximately 4 feet by 6 feet interior dimensions (very small, we know, but we want to build the first one quickly and cheaply, mostly for our personal use at the Abbey, and then iterate our way to bigger and better things), skiddable, and made from natural materials (insofar as possible). We are trying to get a design more or less finalized and priced out, but are being held up by our lack of a good heater/stove design. Neither of us have built a rocket heater before, and we need to do more research before we can come up with intelligent designs, but we're hoping that getting some input from the permies community can speed up our learning curve.

For the stove design, we need something quite small so that it does not take up too much floor space in our tiny sauna. However, we would be willing to add a foot or two to the 4'x6' dimensions we're thinking of if the stove design requires it. We definitely want a J-tube style, not a batch box. Since we want the space to heat up quickly for our saunas, but not necessarily to retain the heat for a long time, we do not want much if any mass in our heater. We have considered something like a cottage rocket, or a pocket rocket like the Minnie Mouse heater in the Love Shack. One issue with the cottage rocket is that it does not seem to draw very well, possibly because it does not have a full-sized heat riser (or so I have heard--I haven't actually used that one). Apparently the Minnie Mouse is also a little finicky. So we would like to improve on the "pocket rocket" as it exists, if possible.

One possible design involves a 4- or 5-inch J-tube and a 30 gallon stratification chamber (barrel) with a secondary stratification chamber (barrel) in line to pull more heat out before the exhaust exits the system.

The two barrels could be stacked, but that would make heating bath water on top of them slightly more difficult due to the height.

As far as the structure itself, we are thinking of using 2x6 stud walls to save weight and for ease of insulating.

For insulation, we are considering slip straw, wool, rice hulls, and any other natural materials we can think of. We want something that will not add so much weight that the structure is no longer really skiddable, and that will not rapidly mold or degrade.

Any input on the sauna and especially the stove design would be appreciated! We will be documenting the project here as we go along.

Thanks!

Dis you see the post from Saana? Some saunas are built in a trailer. Could that be a good idea for you?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_sauna

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
So what kind of stones/rocks to you place in the kiuas, and how far do you transport them to the sauna to make löyly?

The kiuas is in the sauna, the rocks are in the kiuas and the fire burns in the firebox under the rocks!

I believe the most common rock used is olivine-diabase, volcanic rock is used too. There are also "rocks" made out of ceramic mass of some kind that are used.

I was not familiar with the flagellation with a bundle of birch branches with the leaves on them. How hard? [I assume just to make the skin red? harder?

Not hard! It’s not supposed to hurt. It relaxed the muscles (and helps with the itching from the mosquite bites!). And the smell coming from the leaves is amazing!

I was thinking placing it close to my little pond so I could quickly cool down.

This is a brilliant idea! The hot to cold and back is really good for the health!

I was looking at all the older replies. I didnt see insulation addressed. This is the biggest sticking point for me. What insulation have folks used?

Great thread - I read a great article about the History of Finnish Saunas recently and since then I've become obsessed with trying to build my own.

I'd echo the other comment about insulation though, how do you usually look to insulate a sauna? I notice most of the barrel saunas or kits on the market don't have any insulation at all so I'm worried this wouldn't be great for cold environments.

I have been looking at building a small wood fire sauna. I have a local lumber yard that sells seconds of red cedar. I have figured out a way to use the small hobbit stove i own tha was supposed to go into a bus project as the heater. Insulation was my biggest issue. Rockwool is incredibly expensive. I found a forum talking about using Type C Aluminum Foil Single Sided rolled vapor barrier. I found it at a reasonable price for the size of my project. From what i had read using this allows you to use regular fiberglass insulation. I haven't pulled the trigger on the build but i will do a bit more research to chek that the foil barrier wont let moisture get into the fiberglass and it will give me time to see if i can source some recycled fiberglass.

James Myer wrote:Great thread - I read a great article about the History of Finnish Saunas recently and since then I've become obsessed with trying to build my own.

I'd echo the other comment about insulation though, how do you usually look to insulate a sauna? I notice most of the barrel saunas or kits on the market don't have any insulation at all so I'm worried this wouldn't be great for cold environments.

Thanks, James: that is so interesting. Since the Finns really have incorporated saunas in their culture, it makes sense to keep looking at their designs. Yet, if you have an abundance of wood, [I do as my woods are mostly red oak and they have the wilt] and perhaps someone to bring the hot stones to the bathers, the sweat lodge makes a lot of sense.
They had a pit in which the hot stones would be brought. So the bathers were higher, relative to the hot stones, just like the Finns are by having higher benches. The Finns also acknowledge that the round design is better for air movement and limits 'cold spots'. Both are tied to a ritual of purification and calm meditation.
This ritual, seems to be a very important part of the experience, maybe even the most important.
I am not as concerned about the insulation, perhaps because if Native people were able to make a really hot fire outside and transport the stones inside, they must have had some means of doing that. We just have to figure out how they transported these hot stones, [I assume only for a few yards]. Having the fire inside added a serious difficulty, especially if they didn't have a way to exhaust dangerous fumes. Maybe that is why they made the fire outside and brought the hot stones inside?
To keep the frame as a round structure, I would be tempted to start with a geodesic frame with a deep hole in the center of the floor for the hot stones and on the floor some low benches. Those structures were covered with blankets or pelts or skins [when you have many bison, maybe the structure can be kept warm fairly easily!]. The door was relatively small and could be closed [or made smaller] with another heavy blanket. I have not figured out how they dealt with the necessary ventilation. The illustrations I saw didn't show a hole at the top, [like you might have for a nomadic Teepee for example]. I think that would let too much heat escape.
Actually, Native Americans also built wigwams that have the same basic construction as a sweat lodge. [Planting and bending poles over, then covering them with branches, leaves...Could they have used wigwam for sweat lodges?
https://www.nativetech.org/wigwam/construction.html
Since we do not have bison pelts, we would have to make do with many heavy wool blankets, I suppose.
Many cultures throughout the world have used sweat lodges of some type to relax, clean up, revitalize, meditate. It seems to be with the arrival of Europeans into the new world that the practice was eradicated there, probably to match the puritanism of the invaders
https://blog.mrsteam.com/bid/319336/Steam-Bathing-History-The-Native-American-Sweat-Lodges-and-Temazcals

Sean Brown wrote:I have been looking at building a small wood fire sauna. I have a local lumber yard that sells seconds of red cedar. I have figured out a way to use the small hobbit stove i own tha was supposed to go into a bus project as the heater. Insulation was my biggest issue. Rockwool is incredibly expensive. I found a forum talking about using Type C Aluminum Foil Single Sided rolled vapor barrier. I found it at a reasonable price for the size of my project. From what i had read using this allows you to use regular fiberglass insulation. I haven't pulled the trigger on the build but i will do a bit more research to chek that the foil barrier wont let moisture get into the fiberglass and it will give me time to see if i can source some recycled fiberglass.

I've read that some suggested tarps. I would have to assume canvas tarps as the plasticky things they sell in the stores would make someone really sick! I am not familiar with rockwool or the vapor barrier you mention.

Hi James

Welcome to Permies.

My husband and I have a sweat lodge. You move the hot rocks with a pitchfork. You can sweat dry, sprinkle water on the rocks, or pour it on. It's best added slowly. Watch out for exploding rocks! Quartz will explode easily. The rocks will need to be replaced frequently as they crack in the fire, regardless of type. Indigenous people use whatever kind of rock is available. They don't collect and transport sweat lodge rocks over long distances and neither should you. If you get a pile of sandstones hot enough to glow, they'll vaporize sprinkled water for 45 minutes and keep your lodge cooking for much longer than that.

Jen Trout wrote:My husband and I have a sweat lodge. You move the hot rocks with a pitchfork. You can sweat dry, sprinkle water on the rocks, or pour it on. It's best added slowly. Watch out for exploding rocks! Quartz will explode easily. The rocks will need to be replaced frequently as they crack in the fire, regardless of type. Indigenous people use whatever kind of rock is available. They don't collect and transport sweat lodge rocks over long distances and neither should you. If you get a pile of sandstones hot enough to glow, they'll vaporize sprinkled water for 45 minutes and keep your lodge cooking for much longer than that.

I see that this is your first post, so thank you for joining us. I've been thinking about making one too: we are quite aware of PFAS accumulating in the body and this might be a partial solution.
One thing to know about these dangerous chemical is that they are bio accumulative. That's a fancy way to say that they keep accumulating in your body as long as we keep using these products.
It is partially true: The human body does get rid of some PFAS, but very slowly. How? Well, every substance that leaves your body will contain PFAS if your body has on-boarded them. [And our bodies most likely have since these products have been around since the mid 40s. At this point, no matter how careful, everyone has on-boarded these things. Even Bears in Alaska!]
https://therevelator.org/pfas-wildlife-health/
So urine, feces, tears, sweat, menstrual flow, babies and breast milk. [Sorry, guys, these last 3 you don't get to benefit from]. and yes, it does mean that every baby being born today has detectable levels of PFAS.
https://cdphe.colorado.gov/pfas-and-your-health-pregnancy-infant-feeding-and-young-children#:~:text=PFAS%20leave%20the%20body%20slowly,to%20PFAS%20for%20many%20people.
Enters the Sweat Lodge!
Of the 7, 6 will happen without our help, but sweating is something that can be encouraged.