Building to code without plastic?

Just wondering, in places that have the usual "modern" building codes, if it's possible to build to code plastic free, for all the reasons a person might want to do that.

I'm mainly thinking of electrical wiring and pipes. Is there any such thing anymore as electrical wires coated in anything but plastic?

And as far as pipes, I have heard locally (though I don't follow these things closely) that for a lot of uses here, in the code, copper and other metal piping is no longer acceptable and plastic is mandatory.

Can anyone educate me? I realize building codes vary hugely from location to location, but anywhere in the highly regulated consumerist world will do. I just want to hear what's possible in this respect.

Maybe, but it would be very hard and very expensive to do.

There are vintage electrical companies that still sell cloth covered wire. You could use metal boxes. I suspect there may be some ceramic outlets available somewhere... though I have not found any for US plugs. Most outlets use plastic now.

I think it would be nearly impossible to create a system of running water in a house that does not use plastic. It is still ok to use copper pipes for the interior. Steel pipes for drains. But you are going to have a very limited selection for faucets and fixtures... almost all use plastic. The biggest issue is in the well. It would be nearly impossible to get a non-plastic pipe down a deep well. And most well pumps probably contain plastic as well. (and I'm not sure cloth covered wires would stand up to sitting in water to run the pump). If you had a shallow hand pump well... perhaps. But the pressure tank uses plastic... and without it, you would need to setup some sort of gravity feed system for running water. And most of those tanks are plastic. Maybe with the right shallow water hand pump, metal tank, with gravity feed through copper pipes and industrial faucets... maybe?

I don't like plastic, and I seek to reduce the usage where I can. But it often means I have to do things differently than I am used to.

Dave de Basque wrote:Just wondering, in places that have the usual "modern" building codes, if it's possible to build to code plastic free, for all the reasons a person might want to do that.

I'm mainly thinking of electrical wiring and pipes. Is there any such thing anymore as electrical wires coated in anything but plastic?

And as far as pipes, I have heard locally (though I don't follow these things closely) that for a lot of uses here, in the code, copper and other metal piping is no longer acceptable and plastic is mandatory.  

Hi Dave.  This is what I'm currently researching myself for my own build once I get the land purchased.  I'm not concerned about plastic when it comes to wiring, but I definitely am with the plumbing because that comes into direct contact with the water I consume.

I lived in a few different places in Europe and absolutely loved it.  The natural beauty and the people were always my favorite things about everywhere I've ever lived.  But, the laws in Europe?  So many of them seem to be ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous and restricting.  Centuries of structures still stand today that weren't built with a single piece of plastic in them.  How in tarnation did the world survive for thousands of years without current building scams, I mean regulations?!

I hope you'll update us on what you find out.  I'd be interested to know.

Matt McSpadden wrote:Maybe, but it would be very hard and very expensive to do.

There are vintage electrical companies that still sell cloth covered wire. You could use metal boxes. I suspect there may be some ceramic outlets available somewhere... though I have not found any for US plugs. Most outlets use plastic now.

I think it would be nearly impossible to create a system of running water in a house that does not use plastic. It is still ok to use copper pipes for the interior. Steel pipes for drains. But you are going to have a very limited selection for faucets and fixtures... almost all use plastic. The biggest issue is in the well. It would be nearly impossible to get a non-plastic pipe down a deep well. And most well pumps probably contain plastic as well. (and I'm not sure cloth covered wires would stand up to sitting in water to run the pump). If you had a shallow hand pump well... perhaps. But the pressure tank uses plastic... and without it, you would need to setup some sort of gravity feed system for running water. And most of those tanks are plastic. Maybe with the right shallow water hand pump, metal tank, with gravity feed through copper pipes and industrial faucets... maybe?

I don't like plastic, and I seek to reduce the usage where I can. But it often means I have to do things differently than I am used to.

Thanks Matt for the thoughtful reply. So, in minimizing plastic but working in the real world, not getting too wildly impractical, in what areas do you really think that eliminating plastic altogether is impossible or super-impractical? I'm just wondering what you yourself would advise to a friend or client.

Matt McSpadden wrote:  There are vintage electrical companies that still sell cloth covered wire. You could use metal boxes. I suspect there may be some ceramic outlets available somewhere... though I have not found any for US plugs. Most outlets use plastic now.

I didn't think about ceramic.  Thanks for the suggestion.  Plastic sockets and light switches have always looked cheap and tacky to me.  I'll see what alternatives are out there but, if nothing else, I'm happy to go with wooden ones.

I think it would be nearly impossible to create a system of running water in a house that does not use plastic. It is still ok to use copper pipes for the interior. Steel pipes for drains. But you are going to have a very limited selection for faucets and fixtures... almost all use plastic. The biggest issue is in the well. It would be nearly impossible to get a non-plastic pipe down a deep well. And most well pumps probably contain plastic as well. (and I'm not sure cloth covered wires would stand up to sitting in water to run the pump). If you had a shallow hand pump well... perhaps. But the pressure tank uses plastic... and without it, you would need to setup some sort of gravity feed system for running water. And most of those tanks are plastic. Maybe with the right shallow water hand pump, metal tank, with gravity feed through copper pipes and industrial faucets... maybe?

You make a lot of great points.  The one that could be the biggest challenge for me is the pipes for the well.  And to make it even harder, I want them insulated so they don't freeze.  If it can be done, I will do it.  It's something I already have planned to discuss with my builder and general contractor in advance so they're clear about my plans before I hire them because I don't want any arguments when the time comes and some challenges pop up.  If we have to go with plastic, then we will.  But not before exhausting every other possibilities.  

I don't like plastic, and I seek to reduce the usage where I can. But it often means I have to do things differently than I am used to.

I'm with you.  I'm not completely against plastic.  It's not even an environmental thing for me.  I'm not a "greenie."  (I do believe in being responsible and caring for nature.  I just don't align with the political and philosophical aspects of it.  In fact, my "carbon footprint" is drastically smaller than the most staunch environmentalists.)  I just no longer trust anything that's not 100% natural material when it comes in contact with the food and water I consume.  The days of blind trust are gone.  We're about to see the importance of being shown the long term effects/studies on health matters and, until we see them, I'm choosing to go as natural as possible.  

Emmett Ray wrote:
I lived in a few different places in Europe and absolutely loved it.  The natural beauty and the people were always my favorite things about everywhere I've ever lived.  But, the laws in Europe?  So many of them seem to be ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous and restricting.  Centuries of structures still stand today that weren't built with a single piece of plastic in them.  How in tarnation did the world survive for thousands of years without current building scams, I mean regulations?!

I hope you'll update us on what you find out.  I'd be interested to know.

Hey Emmett, I wish you the best in your natural building quest! Yes Europe is great on a lot of levels. I even appreciate some of the laws. For instance, I live in a pretty densely populated, mountainous rural area. You look at the surrounding mountains and you see forest. And old stone farmhouses dot the landscape in areas where there was some minimal sunny, arable land. If you want to build a new house in the mountains, the answer is no. Renovate an old farmhouse, OK, clear a new area and build, no. It really keeps urban sprawl down and makes the towns compact and lively.

However, OTOH, yes, Euro bureaucracy on a lot of levels has a very high frustration factor. A lot of what they want to regulate is a good idea on some level, as humans left to our own devices often go wild and rain on everybody else's parade without a second thought, but it's often done in a way that's loaded with Catch-22's, unclear and roundabout procedures, slowwww decisionmaking, and of course the first answer to everything is normally "no." Definitely hostile to innovation and heavily favoring doing the same-old, same-old and going through established channels for everything. Personally, I'll take it though, if it's my tradeoff for a beautiful landscape, towns that are nice, prosperous and interesting, and a cohesive society where people know how to get along with each other.

Dave de Basque wrote:Hey Emmett, I wish you the best in your natural building quest! Yes Europe is great on a lot of levels. I even appreciate some of the laws. For instance, I live in a pretty densely populated, mountainous rural area. You look at the surrounding mountains and you see forest. And old stone farmhouses dot the landscape in areas where there was some minimal sunny, arable land. If you want to build a new house in the mountains, the answer is no. Renovate an old farmhouse, OK, clear a new area and build, no. It really keeps urban sprawl down and makes the towns compact and lively.

However, OTOH, yes, Euro bureaucracy on a lot of levels has a very high frustration factor. A lot of what they want to regulate is a good idea on some level, as humans left to our own devices often go wild and rain on everybody else's parade without a second thought, but it's often done in a way that's loaded with Catch-22's, unclear and roundabout procedures, slowwww decisionmaking, and of course the first answer to everything is normally "no." Definitely hostile to innovation and heavily favoring doing the same-old, same-old and going through established channels for everything. Personally, I'll take it though, if it's my tradeoff for a beautiful landscape, towns that are nice, prosperous and interesting, and a cohesive society where people know how to get along with each other.

Thanks, Dave.  That's true.  That's one area that Europe does better than America.   Conservation.  Although, with the rest of the laws being as they are, I can't help but wonder what the ulterior motive could be for that.  Actually, you mentioned one other thing that I'm convinced Europe does a whole lot better than America does.  Communities know how to get along with each other.  It's always the rogue element that causes the problems in Europe.  Otherwise, I've always seen folks get along very well.  In America?  I can't even begin to describe how much I can't relate to the way things are.  Everything is taken out of context and to the extreme.  Meanings are imputed without conscience.  People mistake basic traits for what they're not.  Kindness is not flirting.  Attention isn't love.  Silence isn't anger.  Tears are not weakness.  Opinions are not facts.  The list is endless.  

I researched meticulously to find an area to move where I wouldn't be in danger of urban sprawl, yet still matched as much of my criteria as possible.  The place I found meets 95% of what I wanted, so I'll deal with the rest.  Personally, I think a lot of the bureaucracy is about restricting pure, real natural resources more than anything.  In a greedy way, not for the protection of them.

Dave, I am not familiar with your area but I would advise you to make a few calls about the copper. I have lived places in the past where the municipality required that the line feeding the house from the meter was copper and anything in the house was up to you.

The caveat to this nowadays is that copper is more expensive. This leads to overseas companies that produce inferior pipe that does react with substances in the water and degrade overtime. I am a fan of good quality copper. Maybe what you have heard is not accurate, hopefully.

One downside to copper is that it has no flex. If your line is in a location that allows it to freeze, it will rupture. Plastic has some give, some types more than others. I have seen a lot of frozen pex lines thaw with no issues.

The electrical part will be a challenge. I pipe all my electrical at our place. You can run it in 1/2" or 3/4" EMT (or larger) depending on the circuit size. You pull stranded wire through the pipe. It comes in 500'+ rolls. You still have an insulative coating on the wire but you do not have the 2nd outer coating like you have on Romex or direct bury cable.

Dave de Basque wrote:Thanks Matt for the thoughtful reply. So, in minimizing plastic but working in the real world, not getting too wildly impractical, in what areas do you really think that eliminating plastic altogether is impossible or super-impractical? I'm just wondering what you yourself would advise to a friend or client.

For me it has to do with prioritization. One reason I am trying to minimize plastic is for health. (I cannot get in to the specifics here, as discussion of toxic gick is limited to the Cider Press forum only.) I think if we look at what we eat, what we wear, what we clean our stuff with, and what we clean ourselves with... we could make ourselves much healthier for much less work, than a perfect water system. I'm not saying not to do it... I wish I could put together a plastic-less water system and still have running water, but I think I could get much closer to what I want... starting with some other things first.

If someone wants something relatively modern: for example electricity, electronics or cars then plastic will be unavoidable. Everything else does not need it. My house only has plastic in three spots: barrier under the slab (concrete is also modern), wrap around the pipes that go through the slab and electrical cables in the walls. All pipes - welded stainless for sewer (need to maintain the angle as the sewer stainless fittings rather do not exist) and welded/threaded for water.. More plastic will be added in the form of outlets/switches )but not the plates), because they are obviously made from plastic (could be made from ceramics if they wanted but nobody cares about such detail).

It is almost impossible to build with zero plastic. But you can limit it to places where it will minimize the affect on  your health if you’re willing to spend the money. You can’t avoid it in electricity, but you can find different types of plastic. Same for plumbing, to a point. Do your research and pick your poison.  Pun intended.

There are usually non plastic options for building materials that are technically allowed, but getting an inspector to agree may not be easy

There are a lot of reasons that reducing or eliminating plastic interests me: health/avoiding ingesting microplastics, environmental/avoiding spreading toxic gick around, history/didn't people manage without this 100 years ago?, and maximizing self-sufficiency just so we don't all become incapable, helpless consumer blobs, like, can't I make some really nice stuff with the natural materials around me?

But the real reason I posted this now is I'm reading a book (Ecology of Fear by Mike Davis) in light of the latest round of fires that swept through Southern California last month. He pointed out (in 1998) how the skyrocketing use of plastic in construction of everthing from houses to apartment buildings to skyscrapers makes them go up in flames much quicker and billow out loads of very toxic smoke. So it was really the fire aspect of toxic gick that motivated my original post.

Which I mention just in case anyone has anything to say about that.

Dave,

I'm with you on this topic. Like I said before - it can be done, but not using the mainstream approach, so anybody who wants to pursue toxic-free concept of building and life in general, has to educate himself/herself. Plastic is considered convenient without any regard for long term detrimental effects. It's also usually cheaper than any other materials. In my childhood there was almost no plastic (except cars and electronics) and one generation of humans got quickly programmed that it's normal, but anything can be reversed - with an effort.
Regarding the fires - these houses would burn nicely without help of plastic - dry sticks and shingles in the fire prone area - not too smart. Certainly plastics helped them to maintain high temperature and sustain the burn and create some toxic ashes.

Cristobal Cristo wrote:Dave,

I'm with you on this topic. Like I said before - it can be done, but not using the mainstream approach, so anybody who wants to pursue toxic-free concept of building and life in general, has to educate himself/herself. Plastic is considered convenient without any regard for long term detrimental effects. It's also usually cheaper than any other materials. In my childhood there was almost no plastic (except cars and electronics) and one generation of humans got quickly programmed that it's normal, but anything can be reversed - with an effort.
Regarding the fires - these houses would burn nicely without help of plastic - dry sticks and shingles in the fire prone area - not too smart. Certainly plastics helped them to maintain high temperature and sustain the burn and create some toxic ashes.

Another aspect of this conversation.

The most effective reduction of plastic, cost of insurance (if you get it), other valuable materials, is size.

A waste conscience person building a 2k or 3k sqft home can easily be outdone by a non waste conscience person building a 600 sqft home. Especially considering cost of ownership, long term.

Is all of your water (plumbing) located in one place? Do you have more than one bathroom? Do you have more than one AC? Do you have more than one hot water heater?

These decisions quickly negate any desire to reduce icky materials.

I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring as I'll be building a house soon as well and trying to go plastic free.

I'll be doing as much of the labor as possible (hopefully all of it) to save costs, so any additional costs (copper piping or whatever) will hopefully be mitigated.

As to things like outlet covers, i think it would be easy to make them from wood if ceramic ones aren't available. Most of the issues stated so far seem pretty minor excluding perhaps the well and electric cables. In my situation, I'll be attempting to collect and filter rainwater without any well on property. We can't have a well due to the pollution from a nearby mine, so it's either rainwater or hooking up. This also means basically all piping will be indoors and fed from a cistern, so freeze and thaw cycles will be minimized to a very short portion of pipe.

Cool thread, I'm curious if there are more issues I haven't considered i might run into.