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Wiring advice needed

 
master pollinator
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So, I'm an electrical idiot. About the only thing I know about electricity is what Frankenstein's monster know...electricity BAD. Anything that can kill you instantly generates a healthy caution in me. Additionally, I HATE doing things over when I could have done it right the first time or planned ahead for avoiding future work. With that in mind, I am at the planning stage for rewiring and adding some outlets. What I need to know for planning purposes is really about gauge for the wire. I'm assuming heavier gauge just due to the fact that it would be able to carry higher loads more safely. It will have to travel 2-3 floors from the cellar. Some, on the same box/circuit may have to carry microwaves, freezers, and power tools in addition to space heaters in an emergency. Can anyone inform as to gauge sizes and points to consider? Am I correct in assuming to go larger on the gauge in order to alleviate future issues and allow for expansion?
 
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I believe 12 gauge romex is what you need for a standard outlet plug. To go up to a thirty amp circuit, you would need 10 I think and funky outlets.
 
master gardener
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Yes, 12 gauge Romex is pretty much the standard.
 
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Hi Echo,

Jordan is correct.  Most household wiring comes in two sizes/gauges—12 gauge and 14 gauge.  Confusingly, 12 gauge is larger than 14 gauge.  

When you run wiring, you want to start from the breaker box.  14 gauge wiring is perfectly fine for lighting and 14 gauge wiring is good for up to 15 amps.  Make certain that this line connects to a 15 amp circuit breaker and not a 20 amp breaker.  A 20 amp breaker could let in more current than the wire can handle.

For outlets, you probably want 12 gauge line which is good for 20 amps which should be connected to a 20 amp breaker.  

Don’t try to connect a 14 gauge line to a 12 gauge line as the 12 gauge line could supply too much electricity to the 14 gauge line.

I say this not as an electrician, just a guy who wired up my basement.

Hope this helps.

Eric
 
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I think you'll want to do a modest amount of research before you begin your project.  Some "beginner wiring" books may be worth checking out from your local library.  

Typically larger, dedicated devices (microwave, dishwasher, disposal, well pump, etc) have their very own circuit.  Often for kitchens you want a couple circuits for the outlets so that if you are using a toaster in one outlet and you turn on the kitchen aid it might trip the breaker.  

The distance from the breaker box to the outlets isn't a worry.  

There are many nuances to doing it correctly so I'd highly recommend the book or youtube route before you get started.
 
echo minarosa
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Thanks all. I'm not close to actually doing anything yet. What I'm doing is planning costs, needs, etc. I do plan on hitting learning sources pretty hard. After that, I hope to be able to do the time consuming fishing wires part and leave it up to a licensed electrician to make the connections. That's what I think at this point anyway.
 
John F Dean
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Think hard on running the wiring.  I have seen far too many people select a difficult route when a much easier one was available.  
 
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Echo, You may already have an electrician to work with that is amenable to you doing part of the job yourself? But if not, you'll want to figure that out first, so you don't waste your time doing something that your electrician can't/won't use. At the end of the day, it's his/her license on the line. If it's done wrong they are liable, and they don't want the hassle of problems come inspection time.
I had some work done to add a sub-panel to our greenhouse. My electrician was fine with me doing the trenching, but none of the conduit or wiring work. We looked at the job together to identify where the trenches/conduits would go, and calculate the materials, he returned once I had finished digging.

You could get a good education by getting a couple of estimates for the whole job (or part of it), they might discover issues to be corrected, or know better ways to get it done (experience, a team, all the tools and supplies at hand).
You might also find out that you could spend your time elsewhere and save/earn more money than on doing the wiring.
 
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Hi echo! Here's a little more free advice.

Eric did great explaining the wire gauges. 15 amp/14 gauge circuits have been done away with, to my knowledge, and now 20amp/12gauge circuits are the standard minimum (according to the state inspector who inspected my home a couple years ago). While electric codes are national, some things I think can still vary by state.

When it comes to outlets (and switches) there are cheap "builder grade" outlets, and then there are commercial/professional outlets called spec. grade. They cost a couple dollars more per unit, and are a higher quality. They'll be marked spec. grade. on them and on the package.

If any of your appliances are going to be in a damp/wet location, such as a kitchen or outside on a porch as examples, codes says GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt) outlets must be used. On the back of these outlets are four places to attach wires. Two say Line, the other two say Load. Line is for the wire coming from the breaker. Load is for more outlets daisy chained off of it, making all of any regular outlets (up to 3 I think, but don't hold me to it) coming from the Load side of the GFCI outlet Ground Fault Interrupted.

One last thing, which you may already know, is the brass colored screws on outlets and switches is for the hot wire (which is always black) and the silver colored screw is for the neutral wire (which is always the white one).

Hope this helps!

 
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hi, Wiring a House: 5th Edition (For Pros By Pros): Cauldwell ...  Everything you need to learn is in this book.  I've used it many times. The last time I wired everything, including the circuit breakers. It's not that difficult, but there are things you need to know. Don;t bend the wires at a 90 degree angle, round them around the corners. when you put in new switches or receptacles, never - never use the push in as the spring becomes warn and fires have been started because of failure. Always wrap the wire around the screw. Always use the correct gauge for the application. You can only have 12 lights on a 14ga wire. Etc...

I believe this book was required reading for contractors to get their liscense. Again get the book and read it.  You wouldn't make an RMH or a sawmill without knowledge.
 
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Echo,

You seem instilled with a healthy respect for what can go wrong, which is good. This usually is not the case. Don't loose that.

Universal truths of how things go together rarely exist in wiring. Lighting circuits can get complicated, especially on a retrofit where you are reusing existing wiring. The feeder to lighting circuits doesn't always go to the switch first, but often lands at a fixture and a switch leg is pulled off. Many ways to wire three and four way switches.Trying to wire switch a like switch b can cause issues. If you do a good job of wiring a mistake it will trip your breaker. If you do a bad job wiring a mistake, where it doesn't trip a breaker, you can be looking at an electrical fire. The white wire is very often used as switched hot in switch legs. No place to land a "neutral" on most normal switch housings.  Gfci outlets care about the line and load sides. Shared neutrals can be a concern. The code differences between nuances of grounding and bonding are not well understood, even by inspectors.

There are several things you need to know before you start. What NEC code version will your work be held to? What rooms will arc faults be required in? Are you working from a main panel, or is your work in a subpanel to a main panel? Who are you going to call if it doesn't work right, do you have a trusted friend who is really good at this stuff?

If the work is to be inspected, neatness counts. Make it look neat, gives the inspector confidence that it is done right. Don't argue with an inspector. Nod and agree to fix issues even if you don't think it is a problem. In my experience 95+% of the time the inspector is right, and 99+% of the time is not asking for anything harmful. Many many ways for an inspector to "throw the book at you" and make your life miserable, don't go there.
 
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I suggest that you go read the National Electric Code (NEC).  Keep in mind that NEC should be the FLOOR not the ceiling.  It describes minimum standards.  It will explain how junction boxes should be used.  It will give you advice on when to use conduit and what kind you should pick and all sorts of other useful information on doing wiring properly.  

Most normal 110v circuits (normal in NA) and 15 or 30 amps will not kill you unless you have a pacemaker or something on board.  It will give you a nasty zap and you will say bad words but that's about the extent of actually contacting the current (aka angry pixies) Even 240v at a low amperage will hurt but once you start looking at 50amp or higher circuits, then it's dangerous.  Make sure you have the right tools and know the safety procedures.

The big danger is causing a house fire, particularly in a rural area.  Most rural areas depend on volunteer fire departments which means that people have to stop what they're doing, rush to the station, suit up and then drive to your location.  Usually at that point the house is "fully involved" and a total loss.

When copper is cheap, I strongly recommend that you use larger than required wiring.  It's the cheapest fire insurance you'll ever get.  That way if a circuit gets overloaded, the wire doesn't overheat before the breaker blows.

Wire gauges work in reverse.  The higher the number the smaller the wire.  The smaller the wire, the higher the resistance.  The more resistance, the hotter it gets.  

Use arc fault breakers or outlets in bed rooms.

Use GFCI breakers or outlets in all wet areas, not just bathrooms.  This means near any sink, spigot, laundry, etc. I would also include water beds and aquarium since they can leak even though they normally don't.  
 
Eric Hanson
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Echo,

There has been a lot of great information here and while I know that you probably feel like you are drinking from a fire hose right now I wanted to add one other point.

At some point in your wiring you will probably want to add an extension to the line you have run, either to branch out or extend a run.  This is acceptable, but the connection absolutely MUST be done in a junction box (J box).  Also, that J box must NOT be blind or hidden within a wall.  It must be visible through the wall.  

The most common way to accomplish this is to install an outlet, though if you wish you can simply cover the J box with a blank plate.  By keeping all wiring connections within a J box they are at least partially protected from fire should a short occur.  Also, by keeping them external and not hidden/blind you will always know exactly where the connections are located.

The suggestion to look up local codes has already been made and getting a book on installing/wiring is an excellent idea.

Good Luck and please never be afraid to ask questions.

Eric
 
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Generally speaking, thicker wire is better. There are exceptions for complicated circuitry but for house wiring thicker is almost always better.

Here's a chart to help determine what is needed to be safe. https://www.lapptannehill.com/resources/technical-information/ampacity-chart
 
pollinator
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Around me, 14-gauge Romex wire sells for about 35 cents a foot, 12-gauge for 50 cents a foot, and 10-gauge for $1 a foot. My general rule is to use the thickest wire I can since thicker wire isn’t that much more expensive, and it’s usually the hardest thing to upgrade once installed.
 
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I am a Master electrician.  This is a dangerous business; in the past 25 years I have personally known 2 professionals who have died as a direct result of a momentary loss of concentration; and one who survived with permanent physical scarring. (These were not incompetent men) Please don't do it yourself. Hire a professional; for your own safety and the safety of those who may come after you. "Respect the power" is a phrase that I heard dozens of times as an apprentice, because it can hurt you if you don't.

That much said; 14 gauge copper Romex cable is the standard for most general purpose electrical circuits and outlets in a home.  However, it's important to note here that it's not the type of building that determines the wire gauge, but the ampacity of the circuit breaker that it's connected to.  The reason that residential circuits normally use 14 gauge copper is because the normal residential breaker panel comes with half of it already filled with 15 amp circuit breakers.  If you have 20 amp breakers instead, 12 gauge copper is your cable size. 30 amp breaker, 10 gauge copper.  Beyond that, there's some arithmetic required; but you don't need to be doing any of it.

As for the devices that you need to connect to it, a 15 amp breaker can handle 1500 watts for two hours or 1200 watts continuously.  Now that you know that, you can look at your microwave, portable heater, or any other device with a cord sold in the United States in the past 40+ years and find the "nameplate".  The nameplate is a small (roughly 2 inch by 3 inch) metal plate that displays the manufacturer's name, and (at least) the peak load amps or watts of the device.  Your microwave is almost certainly 1500 watts, because nobody uses one for more than 2 hours straight; but your heater will be 1200 watts (on max heat) because that's exactly what people do with them. Because these devices are designed to max out a 15 amp circuit breaker all on their own, they cannot be used on the same circuit with pretty much anything else at the same time.  But you probably wont be running them at the same time anyway, so it's fine.
 
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I see both sides - Hubby's *really* competent and capable with electrical stuff, and studied electrical engineering at college which is not the same as being an electrician, but it still taught him to err on the side of safety rather than taking the "good enough" attitude.

That said our current house was owner built including the electrical and it should *never* have passed the inspection. Everything we've taken apart had faults and I'm a little amazed there's never been an electrical fire here. We've got 8 fire detectors to keep us safe and things that we've shut the breakers off on permanently until we renovate with a bulldozer as there's no easy way to repair the problems.

That said, years ago, I helped my sister with some simple re-wiring - replaced outlets and light fixtures - and I had clear directions and followed it like a cookbook. Again, I had respect for dealing with something potentially dangerous.

I admit, there are people I know who I think I'd prefer *never* touched a wire, but I'm also aware of supposed professionals who cut corners to the point of dangerous, inspectors who didn't do their job, and governments who put in poor rules that caused problems (aluminium wiring in Ont back in the 1980's or so without looking at the possible consequences).

Step one is to get oneself educated as to the options. Creighton Samuels wrote:

However, it's important to note here that it's not the type of building that determines the wire gauge, but the ampacity of the circuit breaker that it's connected to.

Permies is world wide - remember that standards are different in different countries, particularly the number of watts and amps in a typical outlet. There's plenty of information in building codes and manuals, so learn what you're getting into and stay safe.
 
pollinator
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Wire size is dependent on current and on length of wire.  There are charts for how much current  a length of wire will support.  Key point is the length in most charts is round trip so if you have 25 feet of wire your wire length is 50 feet.
 
Creighton Samuels
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Jay Angler wrote:

That said, years ago, I helped my sister with some simple re-wiring - replaced outlets and light fixtures - and I had clear directions and followed it like a cookbook. Again, I had respect for dealing with something potentially dangerous.

I admit, there are people I know who I think I'd prefer *never* touched a wire, but I'm also aware of supposed professionals who cut corners to the point of dangerous, inspectors who didn't do their job, and governments who put in poor rules that caused problems (aluminum wiring in Ont back in the 1980's or so without looking at the possible consequences).



There are reasonable inspectors, and there are those that are running a racket. Your greatest defense here is finding a general contractor whom you trust, and asking for a reference.  Ironically, the aluminum issue wasn't exactly the problem most people think it was.  We still use aluminum wiring in commercial & industrial, but not on circuits in the less than 40 amp range.  I can't remember the exact cut off right now. The problem with small gauge aluminum wire is that aluminum is much more brittle than copper, so when the wires are bent in tight turns, like one gets when you push an outlet into an outlet box before putting on a cover, there are cracks that form on the wire under the insulation. This creates hot spots inside walls, which is a bad idea.  However, this might be coming back soon as copper prices spike again, but this time might be copper-clad or copper coated aluminum wires. For that matter, we might see copper plating over steel wires, because the majority of the amperage flows on the outer "skin" of the wire anyway (for alternating current). This is called the "skin effect",  Copper-clad steel wires are already in use in special cases; such as the transmission line of radio broadcasting or electric fencing; and has been used by electric utilities for decades. It's a near certainty that any power lines that you see around that have been installed or replace in the past 20 years or so are just steel cables with a relatively thin layer of copper on the outside.  The only reason that it took that long is because the manufacturing process for copper cladding was too expensive before about 1990.  Really what is happening is creating a copper tube and then wrapping it in plastic, so just about anything could be the substrate core.  I won't be surprised if someone invents a new type of power cable that has copper wrapped around more plastic.



Step one is to get oneself educated as to the options. Creighton Samuels wrote:

However, it's important to note here that it's not the type of building that determines the wire gauge, but the ampacity of the circuit breaker that it's connected to.

Permies is world wide - remember that standards are different in different countries, particularly the number of watts and amps in a typical outlet. There's plenty of information in building codes and manuals, so learn what you're getting into and stay safe.



Yes, I was speaking from a US centric perspective.  But the practicalities of electrical work don't vary a great deal, honestly. Europe (and most of the rest of the word, really. Kinda like Metric versus Imperial) use 50 Hertz and 220 volt branch circuits for residential service; while the US uses 60 Hertz and either a 120/240 volt single phase service, or a 120/208 3 phase for residential services.  If that sounded like nonsense, don't worry about it; the higher voltage phasing issue only comes into play if you have an electric oven, electric water heater, clothes dryer or central air conditioning unit to install.  Which, again, really should involve a trusted professional anyway.
 
Creighton Samuels
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I just had to look, and it didn't take me 20 seconds to find it...

https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/14-awg-solid-copper-clad-tracer-wire-pe-30-insulation-1000ft-or-2500ft-spool

The voltage rating is just a function of the quality of outer plastic, so it would be trivial to make this as power transmission wire once the National Electrical Code permits its use inside buildings.
 
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Built and wired my own house, myself, and I am not an electrician but a good book and a few videos will educate you well enough to do this yourself.  The main bit of information I will share is that code, here in southern Utah, was that I needed a separate 20 amp circuit for EACH appliance.  You mentioned using the circuit for multiple appliances so I think you may want to consider running large wiring up to a small circuit breaker box where you would then run independent wiring for each outlet.  But, you need to consider that the main wiring would need the necessary wiring to cover the total amperage of all items that could be operating at the same time.  Meaning, it is possible for a fridge and a microwave and a heater to all cycle on at the same time so in theory you would need to consider 60 amps for the main circuit.  
EDIT:  I think the largest breaker for residential is 50 amps so I understand a 60 amp breaker and circuit is probably not possible.
The wiring book should explain this, probably in the section talking about running a sub panel.
Good luck, just study and think before you decide.  You can do it, just do it right.
 
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Hello. I am a master electrician. In the world of the 2020 NEC: Every three years it gets more complicated It is a very long-boring legal document- try to read it when you need sleep....
1. For residential wiring, the kitchen requires 2- 20A 12 AWG copper circuits for to service the countertops.  You can purchase a countertop microwave, toaster and other appliances and plug them in and they should not be a problem.
The purpose of 2 circuits is to connect some of the larger loads on different circuit so they aren't overloaded.  Your fridge is allowed be connected to one of these circuits or have one of its own. The circuits are required to have AFCI circuit protections and if they serve a countertop or within 6'  of a sink, GFCI as well. Dishwashers,  garbage disposals  and over the range microwaves need their own circuit, AFCI and GFCI. These circuit CANNOT serve lights or other rooms.
Electric stoves will require a 40- 60A 240V circuit also- GFCI protected, depending on the size of the range in KW It has to be a REALLY BIG stove to pull a 60A Circuit. Min size 8 AWG and 40A breaker.
Electric cooktops can be spliced into the circuit only if the circuit is 50A....AAAAGH! It gets more and more detailed.....
2. As to other rooms, bathrooms require a 20 A circuit- one for each or 1 for all if the circuit feeds only the receptacles which are GFCI protected. A 15A circuit from anywhere  can provide power to lights, or a 20 A circuit could be just for a heater.
3.Living rooms and bedrooms are 15A for generally  receptacles and lighting. Receptacles should be no more than 12 feet apart or 6' from a door or fireplace. But you can use 12 AWG for the whole house if you want.
4. AFCI - all living spaces , kitchen and bathrooms
5. GFCI - All wet areas, basements, crawl spaces, garages, bathrooms, near tubs, kitchen countertops and 6'in all directions of a sink, laundry areas, dishwashers, etc.
6. You may need 240V for AC refrigerated air. You might end up with a  60A circuit breaker here, depending on the size.
Read current how to books and be careful.
Enjoy
 
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