Grid Intertie: Interesting challenge of Net Metering law in Minnesota in the works....

Saw this come across the wire today....the link appears to be open access.  Although one can dispute the 'Permie-ness' level of the attempts at solar-for-profit of those involved, I don't ever recall (1) the past law requiring that the power being generated needs to offset what would have been purchased from a rural power coop in the absence of the alternative power source, nor (2) the notion that rural power cooperatives are exempt from the jurisdiction of the state Public Utilities Commission.  I realize many states do not have Net Metering for grid-interconnected power that the residence sells back to the utility, but for those that do, does this sound wonky compared to your own state laws?  Certainly I'm aware of many state private and cooperative utility power producers looking to weaken or eliminate Net Metering and am wondering if this is being illustrated in the article.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/renville-county-farm-field-battle-223600182.html

John Weiland wrote:Saw this come across the wire today....the link appears to be open access.  Although one can dispute the 'Permie-ness' level of the attempts at solar-for-profit of those involved, I don't ever recall (1) the past law requiring that the power being generated needs to offset what would have been purchased from a rural power coop in the absence of the alternative power source, nor (2) the notion that rural power cooperatives are exempt from the jurisdiction of the state Public Utilities Commission.  I realize many states do not have Net Metering for grid-interconnected power that the residence sells back to the utility, but for those that do, does this sound wonky compared to your own state laws?  Certainly I'm aware of many state private and cooperative utility power producers looking to weaken or eliminate Net Metering and am wondering if this is being illustrated in the article.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/renville-county-farm-field-battle-223600182.html

John, I see articles like this as a good sign. Solar is now so successful that utilities have to start treating it as a regular producer not as a feel good greenwashing effort. As the price of panels and storage keeps dropping system sizes keep increasing and utilities feel they need to stop paying people retail rates. The norm is becoming no financial exchange at all you just exchange kwhrs with the utility not money. Thats how they work it in ontario. It keeps the system sizes down to what you actually use instead of milking what is a subsidy program when you think of it. California recently dropped their pay in rate to remove profit from the equation. My view is having access to the grid for seasonal surplusses is a huge incentive and should be enough. More than meeting your needs and you are a business and should be treated as such.

I agree with David.
The market is changing quickly.
3 years ago we installed grid-tie solar in Nova Scotia with 1:1 kWh exchange with the utility; send a kWh on a sunny day, take a kWh in the dark.
At the end of the year any positive balance in our favour is zeroed out.
So 3 years ago our system was sized at ~85% of our consumption, to avoid 'losing' power to the utility.
But today my neighbour's new system is sized at 101% of consumption, because panels are so cheap that 'losing' a few percent to the utility is negligible.
10 of 36 houses in our little neighbourhood now have grid-tie installs, with a payback of ?8-9? years.

5 years ago in New Brunswick the deal was similar, except the utility sold us power, charging tax, but forced us to pay the 'tax' to return power to them.  15% each way made the deal less favourable.
As batteries drop in price, total offgrid becomes progressively more attractive.

Douglas Campbell wrote:I agree with David.
The market is changing quickly.
3 years ago we installed grid-tie solar in Nova Scotia with 1:1 kWh exchange with the utility; send a kWh on a sunny day, take a kWh in the dark.
At the end of the year any positive balance in our favour is zeroed out.
So 3 years ago our system was sized at ~85% of our consumption, to avoid 'losing' power to the utility.
But today my neighbour's new system is sized at 101% of consumption, because panels are so cheap that 'losing' a few percent to the utility is negligible.
10 of 36 houses in our little neighbourhood now have grid-tie installs, with a payback of ?8-9? years.

5 years ago in New Brunswick the deal was similar, except the utility sold us power, charging tax, but forced us to pay the 'tax' to return power to them.  15% each way made the deal less favourable.
As batteries drop in price, total offgrid becomes progressively more attractive.

That matches my observations with my clients. Take net metering if you can get it while you can because the utilities are tightening the screws because its really starting to make an impact. The grid will always be the cheapest back up available so using it if available will always be worth it ;the days of payed power inputs are numbered though.
Cheers,    David

David Baillie wrote: Take net metering if you can get it while you can because the utilities are tightening the screws because its really starting to make an impact. The grid will always be the cheapest back up available so using it if available will always be worth it ;the days of payed power inputs are numbered though.

First, unless your power company is owned by the government, it is likely a "for profit" company. Due to certain US laws which I won't get into deeply, there is a rule that companies must work for the benefit of their shareholders. This leads to short term planning rather than longer term profitability in many places.

Second, from the company's perspective, solar panels don't cover certain "peak" times, so having the company give you power when *you* need/want it, rather than when you can produce it, is actually a service they were providing at a bonus to the solar panel owner to encourage early adopters, but now are only willing to provide at a even-steven basis.

Third, as more people put up panels, your power company may have to actually shift its investment from "making power" (which it's had years of practice doing) to "storing power" for when it needs to meet peak demand. On a day's basis, that's getting easier. On a seasonal basis, that's a lot harder in places where the solar panel production shifts noticeably. When this happens, yes, you may find you start being charged for the infrastructure required to do all this.

Forth, governments have been influenced by large power companies. In many places, they have rules in place preventing homeowners within their territory from "going it alone". When a BC company wanted to charge a homeowner a pile of money to upgrade his electrical connection - an amount the homeowner felt was excessive - the homeowner looked into the practicality of being "off grid inside the city" and was told he was not allowed to do that. This issue is *very* real, and has the potential to be *very nasty* before all is said and done. The difficulty will be threading the line between, true costs of running wires "for everyone", and company profits. There are models out there where homeowners are encouraged to "own their own power company" by investing stock in the company that is feeding their homes. In effect making it a Co-operative - which also had government regulations attached to it.

I absolutely believe that solar is a moving target and that we're decades behind on the research in battery storage, which might have helped power companies even before solar became cost-effective, to smooth out peaks and valleys if it had been cost-effective sooner.  So if people are seeing this as a fast changing playing field, I agree. Elsewhere on permies, someone was upset about having to pay a surcharge to her local government for driving an electric car. I pointed out that where I live, it is a gov't tax on fuel that pays for road repairs. So if you're not paying that tax through the electricity you power your electric car with, you will have to pay it as part of your license. Speaking up - very nicely - to your gov't representative, about how to make that payment fair to permies like me who rarely drives more than once/week compared to daily travelers, would be good *before* this issue becomes huge. There are places where roads are "private" and many people are pretty shocked at how much it costs to keep them maintained. The same is true of electrical infrastructure. These are very real issues and making sure the "permie point of view" is represented to officials *before* some of these decisions are made, may not work, but is still worth a try.

The impact here with our rural coop in Minnesota is not so much the rate of pay-back for excess power generated.  It's that connection fees (billed monthly) are beginning to creep up at a worrisome rate.  I'm not sure what their rate for adding grid-intertie to the mix is just now, but even without it, our current connection fee is over $60 per month, even if we were to not draw any power from them during that month.  I understand that such fees are necessary to maintain the grid for all, but will have to weigh this as a factor in the homestead economics.  What I certainly do like and appreciate is the greater affordability, on-site power storability, generation efficiency, and plug-n-play nature of modern solar offerings.  It comes with a re-education for the homeowner to be sure, but the potential for a bit more power independence is sizable.

One question for you in Canada without getting lost in the weeds too much of particulars:  Does Canada as a country or the Provinces (or cities/counties) provide financial incentives for solar/alternative power installation by homeowners?  A useful swath our tax incentives in the US have disappeared under the current government....could well come back after changes occur in that realm...but i'm curious as to whether or not home power generation up there is seen somewhat in the same light as health care, where the costs of the service are distributed across residents in a different way between the two nations.  Thanks....and appreciative of these discussion points from both of you...for solar especially, so nice to hear how those in northern climes are balancing the summer power generation with winter deficits and working out affordable plans with grid power providers.

John Weiland wrote:The impact here with our rural coop in Minnesota is not so much the rate of pay-back for excess power generated.  It's that connection fees (billed monthly) are beginning to creep up at a worrisome rate.  I'm not sure what their rate for adding grid-intertie to the mix is just now, but even without it, our current connection fee is over $60 per month, even if we were to not draw any power from them during that month.  I understand that such fees are necessary to maintain the grid for all, but will have to weigh this as a factor in the homestead economics.  What I certainly do like and appreciate is the greater affordability, on-site power storability, generation efficiency, and plug-n-play nature of modern solar offerings.  It comes with a re-education for the homeowner to be sure, but the potential for a bit more power independence is sizable.

One question for you in Canada without getting lost in the weeds too much of particulars:  Does Canada as a country or the Provinces (or cities/counties) provide financial incentives for solar/alternative power installation by homeowners?  A useful swath our tax incentives in the US have disappeared under the current government....could well come back after changes occur in that realm...but i'm curious as to whether or not home power generation up there is seen somewhat in the same light as health care, where the costs of the service are distributed across residents in a different way between the two nations.  Thanks....and appreciative of these discussion points from both of you...for solar especially, so nice to hear how those in northern climes are balancing the summer power generation with winter deficits and working out affordable plans with grid power providers.

There have been federal plans ( green home incentive) which have applied but are now mostly done. Ontario has a sort of solar rebate but the conditions they put on it make it mostly dead in the water. There were other grid ties incentives in the past now mostly done. Various provinces offer something but not nearly as generous as the recently cancelled US one.