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Posts: 170
Location: western Washington, Snohomish county--zone 8b
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Root Cellar! on my list of many goals for our property.

I know alot of people that don't really know how to used preserved fruit and veggies. When I go into the grocery store I get the feeling that it is our God given right as middle class Americans to have FRESH food always......in contrast to the food deserts in the inner city........whoa way off topic!

when I was a kid we canned bing cherries. (if you never have had canned cherries it should be on your list of thing to try.) you could only get cherries for a couple months in the summer.usually we picked our own for a $1 lb! what a treat the canned ones were for us. But now I have seen fresh cherries in the mid-winter from south america. Most people would pay $10 lb for unripe fresh cherries and think they tasted good. I know some people that would turn up there nose at my canned version and eat the crappy fresh ones \

Native plants, on a planetary level, would benefit if we stopped shipping  fresh food from out side North America.
The reality of how our winter produce gets shiped is obscene. A good food movement to start would be using dried, can, and frozen foods. We need one of these popular chef people to embrace this idea and show americans how to cook with preserved foods.
 
                              
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auntythelma wrote:
I think mr. hemenway would advocate the "locavore". his comments in the video make me think about this scenerio.......

in the winter many fresh vegetables and fruit at the store come from south america...mostly Chili and Ecuador. IF.....americans preserved lots of there own locally grown fruit and veggies and ate that through the winter and spring rather than purchasing Fresh at the store, This would cause a huge ripple all the way to South America. Large sections of deforested Land would be claimed back by the rain forest with in Months of the SA farmers shutting down production.




But realistically that is not going to happen from our end.  And economically I am not so sure things would play out how you think in Chili and Ecuador either.   
 
Thelma McGowan
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t realistically that is not going to happen from our end.  And economically I am not so sure things would play out how you think in Chili and Ecuador either. 



don't give up! being green is a trendy thing now so people are open to bying local. growing a vegetable garden is becoming more and more popular too.

as for the South American farms shutting down......it has happened very recently. I work in the floral industry and the recession hit us really hard 2 years ago. produce and flowers are grown and sold side by side. for instance ..when a cold spell hits the lettuce fields in california, you can't find good lettuce at the store and it costs dbl the price........the carnations growing over in the next field also get frozen and then the flower shops have poor quality carnations that are really expensive......they are parallel industries.

Basically it was a ripple effect on the Farms (these numbers are just examples based on what happend to our company)

1) Americans purchased 50% less flowers than the previous year.
2) then many of the small flower shops went out of business
3) The farms that grow the flowers sold 50% less product. in an effort to maintain the fields that had been cultivated and planted the farms had to drop their prices dramatically to move all their stock. They stopped being profitable and farms in South America went broke (as well as some in the US).
4) The next year the economy improved and flower wholesalers  had to scramble to find enough flowers for demand. we were forced to purchase more  products from the california and canadian growers.

Americans just need to be educated. This next spring if you go to the store and want to by apples. will you purchase the fresh apples from New zealand or will you go by some apple sauce made from apples grown and processed in washington state? or maybe you will just go to your own pantry and eat some dried apples you prepared your self from your own trees.

I know I am preaching to the choir here....:0)
Native plants in the rain forests of South America will take over the abandoned crop fields

 
Posts: 418
Location: Eugene, OR
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1 acre of monoculture feeds say 2 people
1 acre of forest garden feeds 2 to ten people (2 in harshest climates, 10 in wet tropics, probably like 5-7 in temperate climes)
If 5 people abandon their monoculture and grow a one acre forest garden, that's four more acres for native plants
 
                              
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Aunty, thanks for the insite. It is always interesting to me to hear how things are playing out in other industries. And are those farms actually shutting down or are they just transitioning to farming different products?
 
                              
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Paleo Gardener wrote:
If 5 people abandon their monoculture and grow a one acre forest garden, that's four more acres for native plants



Or four more acres for a subdivision.  I think it is very dangerous to take the stance that you are going to free up farm land and so that automatically equals more native habitat.  We are not seeing that at all.  Island conservation has its limits, and we are learning more and more each day the importance of connecting habitat. Those 'highways' are vital for species survival. And even the durban yard can play it's part.
 
            
Posts: 177
Location: California
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auntythelma wrote:
Root Cellar! on my list of many goals for our property.

I know alot of people that don't really know how to used preserved fruit and veggies. When I go into the grocery store I get the feeling that it is our God given right as middle class Americans to have FRESH food always......in contrast to the food deserts in the inner city........whoa way off topic!

when I was a kid we canned bing cherries. (if you never have had canned cherries it should be on your list of thing to try.) you could only get cherries for a couple months in the summer.usually we picked our own for a $1 lb! what a treat the canned ones were for us. But now I have seen fresh cherries in the mid-winter from south america. Most people would pay $10 lb for unripe fresh cherries and think they tasted good. I know some people that would turn up there nose at my canned version and eat the crappy fresh ones \

Native plants, on a planetary level, would benefit if we stopped shipping  fresh food from out side North America.
The reality of how our winter produce gets shiped is obscene. A good food movement to start would be using dried, can, and frozen foods. We need one of these popular chef people to embrace this idea and show americans how to cook with preserved foods.



I love canned cherries as well.. almost prefer them that way versus fresh. I'm not big on canned/preserved food in general, though. That's what winter veg is for! Fruit preserves are great of course, but why eat frozen corn (or week-old stuff shipped from the southern hemisphere) when you can be eating great, fresh winter stuff?
 
Thelma McGowan
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Jeremy wrote:
Aunty, thanks for the insite. It is always interesting to me to hear how things are playing out in other industries. And are those farms actually shutting down or are they just transitioning to farming different products?



I can't say that those farms didn't switch crops. but it shows how Amercan choices effects the world, since we represent one of the biggest consumers. What would happen if Americans decided not to drink coffee any more? Coffee plantations would shut down and it would take years to rebound with a different crop.
 
Thelma McGowan
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I love canned cherries as well.. almost prefer them that way versus fresh. I'm not big on canned/preserved food in general, though. That's what winter veg is for! Fruit preserves are great of course, but why eat frozen corn (or week-old stuff shipped from the southern hemisphere) when you can be eating great, fresh winter stuff?



If I lived in california I would eat fresh winter stuff for sure :0)
 
Kirk Hutchison
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Location: Eugene, OR
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BWAHAHAHAHA
 
                              
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I think it was in Edible Forest Gardens vol 1 by Dave Jake that I read the native plants movement was supported but herbicide companies.  Which made sense because several of the native plant websites I had looked at recommended repeated herbicide treatments to clear the way for native plantings.... never a good idea!  Once again a giant corporate scam to exploit a niche market, which would also explain any bad mouthing of permaculture while leaving agribusiness unmentioned.  It is amazingly sad what someone will preach for a few dollars.
 
            
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Location: California
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auntythelma wrote:
If I lived in california I would eat fresh winter stuff for sure :0)



Winter root crops store pretty well.. hence your mention of a root cellar, I guess. Just didn't hear any mention of stocking it with, well.. roots. Nothing growing outside in your neck of the woods to supplement your winter table? The winter garden has got to be one of my favorite places.
 
steward
Posts: 979
Location: Northern Zone, Costa Rica - 200 to 300 meters Tropical Humid Rainforest
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Jeremy, one thing that I have always had to consider is that we, humans, are non-native over much of the planet, and very very invasive. 

I doubt there is anything else more of an invasive exotic than ourselves. And much of the food we eat, isn't native, either.

One interesting thing I learned was Costa Rica, where I live, has NO native grasses. It was all forest not that long ago (say 500 years or so).

I approve of the idea of preserving diversity makes lots of sense, but with a changing world, we might have to accept that old territories are no longer valid. If the globe warms up, what is native is going to change in time.

Myself, I prefer natives over exotics whenever possible, but sometimes it is hard to know what is and isn't native anymore - like grass.

 
                              
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Fred, I just gave a presentation on grasses and lawns not three weeks ago.  And so don't get me started b/c this will turn into a five page thread.   And I follow what you are saying about humans.  Yeah we ultimately we do have to live on this rock and we are going to bring about change as a result.  I'd just think it would be nice if we could do that living with an eye towards tomorrow. 

And I'm curious if it would surprise you to hear that in my forest program we have talked about global climate change and what that is going to mean in regards to future species composition?
 
Thelma McGowan
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Winter root crops store pretty well.. hence your mention of a root cellar, I guess. Just didn't hear any mention of stocking it with, well.. roots. Nothing growing outside in your neck of the woods to supplement your winter table? The winter garden has got to be one of my favorite places.



This year i will be paying more attention to the Natives in my back yard....so who knows what I will have??

as far as the garden goes.....swiss chard hangs in there for a while, kale too. I can hang my tomatoes in the garage and have ripe toms up until nov/dec.. ....I pull my carrots out of the garden because i have some critter that eats them from the bottom up and hallows out the entire carrot it is really wierd to pull a big carrot and it is a shell... completely empty! This year I am going to try and plant some spinach and hardy stuff

the problem here is after the first frost the rain drowns everything,
 
Fred Morgan
steward
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Jeremy wrote:
And I'm curious if it would surprise you to hear that in my forest program we have talked about global climate change and what that is going to mean in regards to future species composition?



Not surprised, there is already evidence of forest species migrating, and of course, in forestry, we talk decades, not years, so you have to think long term.

Isn't it interesting that some people can still be in denial, when those who have to deal with climate daily, are preparing?

One thing that I found out while raising livestock is stevia, which is a sweeter that humans can't metabolize, is used to STIMULATE appetite. Want your animals to eat twice as much? grind it up with stevia and they will chow down like they are at a buffet. In other words, if you want animals to get fat, give them sweetener, and stevia does better than sugar cane, especially for sheep.

Just recently the dietitians have been warning against using artificial sweetener, because they cause people to eat more. A little slow when those who raise livestock have known this for years.
 
steward
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Location: Currently in Lake Stevens, WA. Home in Spokane
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Stevia has also been used in the commercial egg business.  As little as 1% mixed into the feed has shown a significant reduction in broken/cracked eggs.  There is actually a US Patent on such a feed.
 
Fred Morgan
steward
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John Polk wrote:
Stevia has also been used in the commercial egg business.  As little as 1% mixed into the feed has shown a significant reduction in broken/cracked eggs.  There is actually a US Patent on such a feed.



I actually tried Stevia once, incredibly sweet, and nothing gives me a worse case of gas. 
 
pollinator
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Came across this today and was curious if others had heard of it: http://www.invasiveplantmedicine.com/ It is a book called "Invasive Plant Medicine" by Timothy Scott. He talks about the misconception of "invasives" and how they have healing properties for the earth and ourselves. Haven't read it but am intrigued
 
Posts: 42
Location: wellsville, utah
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We seem to be talking about different things here.


there is a huge difference between non-native, and "invasive"

Invasive is like kudzu, or bromus tectorum. it changes the fire regime, changes the soil, and by extension the entire ecosystem of an area.

plants have evolved like crazy since the time of pangea, some plants that are native to the eastern US are considered NON native to the west.



so, should we plant non-natives?  sure sure. But we should draw the line at invasives. especially useless invasives (arguably nothing is useless... but arguably some things have so little or limited use that they're statistically useless)


Also, are we talking about private land? or public land? surely invasives on public land should be a no-go.... nobody is taking care of it. but private land can be groomed, and maintained... or not as the case may be.


we can reference anyone we want here. but what I haven't seen, are references to scientific journals. I see speculations and anecdotes here.      I would like everyone to be doing studies on this. even if it's never published  or anything.      pick a plot of land, that you can really experiment on. a couple acres, plot out trancepts,  record everything in it, and it's function, then plant invasives in some, and record it over the next couple years (the longer the better) revisiting it, and recording plant size, diversity, function, etc.


This is what gets published. five, or ten year studies done with the scientific method.

we can speculate, and that's fine, we can have experience with it, but talking about non-natives, and invasives, and talking like they're fine, without talking about, and refuting studies that are saying to the contrary, without showing scientific evidence yourself is silly.



I mean this:    There are well thought out speculations here. But without having read the journals, and doing research on the subject beyond a google search, and a book seems silly.

certainly bromus tectorum changing the fire regime within the grand canyon is nothing but negative. If there were an inner canyon fire, it would take hundreds of years for it to recover, and it wouldn't recover to the same thing even then!  plus the fact that cheat grass doesn't support the same micro-organisms as the native plants there, so it's changing the soil in a way that isn't beneficial to the area.


we can say it's good or bad, but the fact is, it's changing the area in a ways we can't even fathom. planting anything that wasn't there before is scary.  sure ecosystems can adapt to non-natives. but talking about invasives....    not always.  the effects can be devastating.
 
Doody calls. I would really rather that it didn't. Comfort me wise and sterile tiny ad:
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