reputation on permies, and on the internet

K Carpenter wrote:I had no idea. . .that there was any 'censoring' going on in the background. Not that I disagree with it at all! It's just that it's done in such a way we aren't aware of it. And I for one appreciate it.

To the contrary, I've found "censoring" (moderating) at permies.com to be very open, transparent, and straightforward. Perhaps someone has posted designs for a perpetual heat machine made from a drum of roundup that Paul has stealthily deleted to continue his RMH schemes, but I've found lines drawn in a number of areas of the forums showing what is acceptable, why, and even how those decisions were arrived at. This is a key part of why reputation here has integrity for me.

I was on next door for for a while. Having social media based on geography engaged me in a way fluff like Fakebook and others never did. But the experience highlighted for me how much our urban centers are less collections of people and more collections of walls. Since I knew some of the people from outside of the forum, I became aware of censorship I would not have otherwise. The partisan nature of the moderators was essentially hidden from participants, with no recourse or discussion around their actions. What is the point of reputation in an impotent echo chamber?

Permies.com is far and away the best implementation of forum software I've encountered.

Amazon has a much more specific measure of reputation - "Is this seller/product trustworthy" with their star ratings and comments. But those are frequently manipulated.

FWIW- By many accounts, the Amazon rating system is highly manipulated. Sellers gain high ratings, than swap a different product into the same spot, thus negating any review. Sellers pay each other to swap 5 star ratings, etc. There was a whole segment on either Planet Money or Freakonomics podcast discussing how unreliable yelp ratings/reviews are as well. There was even an account by someone who got banned (by Amazon) from leaving reviews for calling out an overseas seller claiming to be in Oregon selling local organic garlic.
We have had mostly good experiences with Amazon, but will not buy anything that's not backed by the Amazon guarantee, because sellers can be shady regardless of 5 star ratings. We have found that the ebay feedback system is far more reliable, and even that is not foolproof.
Online, anything is mostly hidden from us. As Lina mentioned, even in real life it takes time with someone in different situations to get a true picture of them and form a sense of their reputation.

Permies is more about information that is useful and entertaining and less about staying in contact with specific people. Also less businesses use Permies to get the word out about their products. Those that do are homestead related. I like being able to cut to the bone of the matter here and get the information. Most of the time the information is presented with a view of it being imperfect and open to improvement. I like that alot! My reputation here is not very important to me as I am not here to gather a bunch of groupies. I would love to be able to visit Wheaton labs in person but since I live a long ways away and am busy here maintaining and improving things I can't break away to go. So the resources such as videos are all the more important t me!

Jason Tuller wrote:As with all things Permies and PEP...we're talking about reputation or skill verification according to Paul.  Is the system valuable because of that benevolent dictator at the top?  Is there a transition plan to a different benevolent dictator if Paul would get hit by a runaway skiddable composting toilet?  Does our Permies reputation depend on Paul at the end of the day?  Does Permies reputation itself depend on Paul?

I've been thinking about this, not that it would affect me, but there are a lot of people who I suspect have invested a fair bit of time and effort in that stuff. Hopefully they have been advised of the plan in place if that ridiculous runaway skiddable composting toilet incident occurred (an image that is now stuck in my head forever, like a Benny Hill scene, Yakety Axe playing as Paul runs frantically, the outhouse a mere whiff behind).
But what I also wondered about is how far outside the permies world that PEP badge would carry any weight. Are there in fact people with property lined up waiting for those who complete the SKIP program? I don't know what the true merit actually is outside of those in the same permies realm. If I were to look for someone with homestead skills, whether to hire or perhaps set up a sweet deal on land, I'm not sure badges would impress me, anymore than college degrees impress me. I think I can find out far more about a person by spending a day with them talking and working alongside, observing how they handle tools and questions they ask. A reputation doesn't rest on badges or degrees. But I also think the PEP thing has intrinsic value to those who simply want to learn these skills, and at worst it's stuff you need if you buy some land and want to be self sufficient as possible (and where else, in one place, can one find that sort of learning?). So it would seem 'reputation or skill verification according to Paul' really isn't as important as competence and confidence to exhibit those skills. This may be Paul's house, but the permies world extends far beyond this website, so I suspect that decades from now, when Paul and many others of us are composting quietly, the same work will be moving forward, hopefully bigger and better than ever.

Integrity.

Flavors of integrity.

Recently I have been rather health focused.  The information about health is powerfully conflicting.  So i find a few sources that I trust and give more weight to their words.  At the same time, there are armies of people pointing to my health experts saying "bullshit!" and "quack!" and "outright lies!"   Therefore, there are at least two schools of thought.  Each camp is pointing to the other and saying "bullshit!"  Depending on the perspective, they are both right.  One camp will solve problems with prescriptions and the other camp will solve the same problems with "food as medicine."  Oh sure, there are probably a thousand more camps too.  

My favorite health guy is getting censored.  Some of his youtube videos have been removed.  I know because I have a private thread here on permies where I embedded the videos and they are now gone.  My favorite was detailing what foods to eat for a very specific health condition - I watched it about a dozen times.  It is now gone.  It is gone because his message was contrary to the corporate message from a different health philosophy.  My guy advocated food choices, and the profit machine advocated a path that was profitable to them.



Here I talked about when I was censored.  My words turned out to be a threat to the profits of a big company.  I'm told it was mostly bots.  Bots with zero reputation.   And here on permies, my words (those same words) remain.

A difference of value set.

Permaculture and homesteading are, I think, I path to reduce ulcers over politics.  To have better health. More peace.  More lovely days.  Less stress.  Less drama.  

A difference of value set.


Gardening. A humble home. Humble heat. Humble food.

There are not many of us that enjoy this path. And when we try to talk about it elsewhere, our words are often drowned out, labeled as crazy and mocked.  


Here ...  I see a post on the first page of this thread written by somebody with "K7" "BB10" and 31 apples.  Followed by "K2" "BB60" and 911 apples.  None of those numbers can be gamed.  These are real people that are active members of our permaculture community.  And when these people share their thoughts here on permies, their words are respected.

Respect.

Reputation.



From my perspective, when i was censored by corporate trolls and their bot army on another site, I felt that was sleazy.  When my favorite health advisor was censored, I felt that was sleazy.

Paying for a cell phone - I just embrace that I cannot own one without sleaze.  I attempted to buy a truck from a dealer and the sleaze was profound.

I want to grow my own food because I am concerned about the sleaze woven into organic food.

When I bought this place it came with propane heat.  And the relationship with propane was very sleazy.  I finally got rid of all that sleaze.



I suppose a downside of being on permies so much is that you get used to integrity (by out standards). And when you have to interact with "the real world" it seem so much sleazier than people that are part of all that all the time.


Apples, PIE, K, BBs ...  real names (or, at least, real sounding names) ...   people with our shared values ...



home



decency



goodness

I like how gaming the permies system isn't just about money (although thread boost is an option to promote threads).  Instead,  the quality of the content has more influence than anything else.

I don't know any other social media that focuses so much on quality and usefulness over dopamine and cash.

bump