Travis Johnson wrote:
I think the problem is, I do not see animals as having "free will" as much as I see them as having a higher level of loyalty based on their instincts. For the most part, a dog is known for being loyal, where as a bear is notoriously known for being unpredictable. My dog, she is petty aggressive as I wanted her to be, four notches being on her collar for (2) coyote and (2) fox kills, but she even scared me. Then one day, she just laid down on the barn floor and wanted me to rub her belly, She had enough loyalty to show me her submission.

I am pretty sure that belly flop thing is a hard-wired livestock guardian trait and their preferred position for receiving affection. I love on my Anatolian a lot and he frequently wants to flop on his side  (he would probably do it every time but he knows I usually don't feel like kneeling down on the floor to pet him). It is his way of saying "More! Lots more!" If he can't lay down he will dramatically drop his head.

I suspect they developed that trait to signal they want physical affection since they can intimidate even their own beloved owners and no one wants to accidentally violate their personal boundaries.:) I have never seen him do that with others even when he wants their attention though. Course since your girl is guarding livestock you wouldn't want to get too affectionate and encourage her to bond with you.

Travis Johnson wrote:
But in contrast, my children are not loyal, they do what I wish because of consquences. It sounds harsh, but as an adult, experience has shown me what is best for them, though they often disagree with me. Even worse, instinct is to rebel against what I say. I never had to teach my daughters to lie, mouth back, or fight with their other sisters for instance.

But if I held my daughters down and told them to say, "I love you", it would be meaningless because it was forced. "Free Will" to me is having the ability to have reign over all emotions.

Ahhhh...okay. Now I get it. Though if you are talking about teenage or young adult daughters I guarantee you they do NOT reign over their emotions, they are likely ruled by their emotions. And in some households being unpleasant to one another is the norm, course the parties involved may feel justified when they are unpleasant or they may not even consciously THINK of it as being unpleasant but either way it is a very unhappy situation.

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:
.... and no one wants to accidentally violate their personal boundaries.:)

yahhh.....i've got two good bite marks in as many months, one on the hip and the other on the calf, on account of violating the pecking order.    My wife is alpha to the dogs and trains them to protect the livestock.

I just pay the bills, which puts me down there somewhere around "mailman" or "UPS driver"..... ;-)  On occasion I've had to separate some livestock in battle----which was seen by the dog as an attack on one of them.   You can guess what happened next.  Or maybe that dog just thought I was whining a bit too much of late.....she's a sweetheart otherwise.  But I tend not to turn my back to her if I can help it.....

Travis Johnson wrote:Thanks for your kind words, but I fail at parenting daily. But out of (5) daughters, adopted is about the only derivative we do not have. One is a foster daughter, so yes I am a professional parent. :-) Two are step-daughters, two are my biological daughters, and of course a few are half-sisters. No adopted sisters though, however I have (6) adopted brothers and sisters myself.

Sadly, our work with those struggling with drug rehabilitation got us in contact with a person who wanted nothing more than to be with a family, and be on a farm. Had we had not just moved to our Tiny House, we would have taken them in. It is something we have done in the past for single moms who were struggling.

Ah, I have my own place and don't need anyone to support me financially. And I'm probably much older than you. But it would have been nice to have parents who actually cared and a family to feel connected to and communicate with even from a distance. Never underestimate the value of that. I doubt you are really failing.

Gail Gardner wrote:

Travis Johnson wrote:Thanks for your kind words, but I fail at parenting daily. But out of (5) daughters, adopted is about the only derivative we do not have. One is a foster daughter, so yes I am a professional parent. :-) Two are step-daughters, two are my biological daughters, and of course a few are half-sisters. No adopted sisters though, however I have (6) adopted brothers and sisters myself.

Sadly, our work with those struggling with drug rehabilitation got us in contact with a person who wanted nothing more than to be with a family, and be on a farm. Had we had not just moved to our Tiny House, we would have taken them in. It is something we have done in the past for single moms who were struggling.

Ah, I have my own place and don't need anyone to support me financially. And I'm probably much older than you. But it would have been nice to have parents who actually cared and a family to feel connected to and communicate with even from a distance. Never underestimate the value of that. I doubt you are really failing.

I have always thought, that if things were different, I would go around the country and help other Permies out. It would NOT be in the sense of me helping them fiscally, but rather in getting things done, whether they be single, married, have a big family, whatever. I would just help out few a few weeks, then move on. Not out of spite, or anger, but just because there would be others to help; with advice, with physical work, and comradery.

I cannot do that now. Not because I am a super jerk, but because as a husband, father and person with my own farm to run, I have responsibilities that I must address. But if things were different I would love to help more people. That is why Katie and I do Rock the Flock every year; we don't have much, but we do have room, and we can help those struggling with opiate drug addiction.

I am pretty sure that I have had much more exposure to people from the bottom of society, than most people ever will. My parents ran a funny farm where they took in delinquent youth, and sometimes failed adults. Many of these people made whining an art form.

I also come from a family of 10 children and I'm third from the oldest. Again no shortage of whining. And I've hired hundreds from the bottom, mostly because they have had problems with substance abuse but also plenty who were just there out of lesser intelligence.

So, my ears and brain have had five decades to become immune or indifferent to whining. It's a skill.

It's a skill that it is at least two generations deep in my family. My dad's tenants used to come to him with all sorts of complaint and request, that would bring their welfare apartments up to a luxury standard. He sometimes started laughing while they were still talking. The Apple didn't fall very far from the tree. My favorite example is when his tenant Linda, gave a huge list of things that she wanted added to her $300 a month unit. Dad said, you've got the wrong guy, I am wearing a blue suit, you're looking for the fat guy in the red suit with white frills.