TheDirtSurgeon wrote:
I must be the only one who sees the positive side of that statement. People with money can get things done. Thus, if we wish to do more than spread ideas -- if we wish to actually terraform the planet -- then we get people with money to do it. Am I crazy? Because it seems pretty obvious to me.
And of course, any aspiring designers who hope to make it their bread & butter would do well to refrain from criticizing people of means.
Anyway.
I'm surprised your search for a qualified designer has proved fruitless. I would have thought you were in a ripe area. Strangely enough, there has been a conversation on another permaculture forum wherein is bemoaned the lack of work for consultants. In your area!
That doesn't seem to me the problem. I could stay busy with tons of work, if I wanted to work for nothing. (Not unique to PC design... it goes for any trade.) The nice catch is the client with the means to implement my wild ideas.
On a somewhat related note, I was talking to a friend the other day who manages a factory for a large company. He's spent weeks trying to hire an engineer who understands basic ladder logic. All the candidates look good on paper -- the right degrees, some experience, etc -- but put them to the test, and find they have no grasp of the necessary skills. What's going on? There are credentialed people everywhere, but skilled people seem to be in short supply. Again, not unique to PC.
As someone suggested, you might have to put your own pieces together. Talk to local organic growers, nurserymen, government scientists, etc.
You probably don't want to pay Darren Doherty's fee... but take a look at his site & portfolio. Might help.
http://www.permaculture.biz
Mike E wrote:
But I think it'd be a shame to scrap or shy away from the P word in favor of another term just because it's copyrighted
Idle dreamer
Idle dreamer
Mike E wrote:
I didn't at all criticize people of means either if you care to re-read what I said, though I'm not sure you were meaning to imply that I did.
Mike E wrote:
And it does (lack of qualified designers) seem to me to be a large part of the problem, at least in my experience, though you seem to have had different ones. Agree to disagree I suppose.
Mike E wrote:
Your link to the Ozzy guy with the impressive portfolio only further solidifies my point, I think. If there's this huge glut of qualified designers in my region starving for work, why link me someone's portfolio who's based out of Australia?
Mike E wrote:
P.S. I didn't mean to fire you up with the, "Well, finally went and took TheDirtSurgeon's favorite advice.." bit. I think you're a sharp guy (or gal or whatever you prefer) and I enjoy your posts. I've just seen you offer that advice on multiple occasions. Maybe advocating a little for yourself while also trying to advance the profession as a whole? :wink wink nudge nudge:
if the f#&$@%g idiots in power would put some subsidy moneys in the right place (like transitioning from industrial to sustainable ag, teaching sustainable design whether you call it PC or not) then we could really get the ball rolling.
Paul Cereghino- Ecosystem Guild
Maritime Temperate Coniferous Rainforest - Mild Wet Winter, Dry Summer
Idle dreamer
Paul Cereghino wrote:
I am starting to suspect that the real problem with Permaculture movement, might be that WE are not fully developing and exercising our design skills in socio-economic settings. We certainly don't control much land base, which is the foundation of our art. I am not particularly convinced that when times get bad, a weary and confused populace will suddenly awaken, springing forth fully formed from the head of Zeus waving the flag of permanent culture -- I suspect we need to lay as much groundwork as we can while people are behaving semi-rationally.
Idle dreamer
Paul Cereghino- Ecosystem Guild
Maritime Temperate Coniferous Rainforest - Mild Wet Winter, Dry Summer
H Ludi Tyler wrote:
And "permaculture" isn't trademarked either.
There has been contention over who if anyone controls the legal rights to the word "Permaculture", meaning is it trademarked or copyrighted, and if so, who holds the legal rights to the use of the word. For a long time Bill Mollison claimed to have copyrighted the word permaculture, and his books reflected that on the copyright page, saying "The contents of this book and the word PERMACULTURE are copyright." These statements were largely accepted at face-value within the permaculture community. However, copyright law does not protect names, ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something; it only protects the expression or the description of an idea, not the idea itself. Eventually Mollison acknowledged that he was mistaken and that no copyright protection existed for the word "permaculture".[15]
Mollison explained that the word "permaculture" was copyrighted to protect the quality of teaching, particularly with relation to the Permaculture Design Course (PDC), a 72 hour course usually taught over a period of 14 days. The PDC is a formal means of training an individual the ideas and techniques associated with permaculture. Mollison's argument was if the word was copyrighted, then only those who had been trained and shown to have a reasonable level of proficiency would be allowed to teach the PDC. However, some of those who taught the PDC wanted to adjust the curriculum to better reflect the local conditions of where it was being taught. For example, should a course taught in an urban setting such as New York City be unchanged from what is taught in rural Australia? Mollison was adamant that the curriculum should be taught as he had designed it, without being altered.
In 2000 Mollison's US based Permaculture Institute sought a service mark (a form of trademark) for the word permaculture when used in educational services such as conducting classes, seminars, or workshops.[16] The service mark would have allowed Mollison and his two Permaculture Institutes (one in the US and one in Australia) to set enforceable guidelines as to how permaculture could be taught and who could teach it, particularly with relation to the PDC. The service mark failed and was abandoned in 2001. Also in 2001 Mollison applied for trademarks in Australia for the terms "Permaculture Design Course"[17] and "Permaculture Design".[18] These applications where both withdrawn in 2003. In 2009 he sought a trademark for " Permaculture a Designers' Manual"[19] and "Introduction to Permaculture",[20] the names of two of his books. These applications where withdrawn in 2011. There has never been a trademark for the word Permaculture in Australia.[21
Paul Cereghino wrote:
Thats the funny thing. I have observed that the movement of public money is determined by the influence of people with economic, legal, or populist power, and they are not idiots (at least in the way I usually picture an idiot) -- they are looking after their perceived interests in a systematic and organized way. They are utilizing flows and dynamics of systems through intense observation. Governments are complex, and the reason they don't function well (from our perspective) is that there are multiple parties vying for influence and control. If it wasn't for that minor ethics and sharing piece, I would say that the power elite are the ultimate social permaculturalists.
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