My clean out dripping, why?

Hello

I hope you would help with my rocket mass heater. My clean out as attached clip, always have water dripping out everytime after I burn. Do you know why and how to fix it? I open the clean out, lot of water in the flue. I dry it out and then next time I burn, water again. What happen? is it normal?

Janet B : Congratulations on your Rocket Mass Heater build !!! And welcome to Permies.com !There is probably nothing wrong with your Rocket !

How much water? How old is Your RMH, and how many times have you fired it and how long does it hold heat for ? Are you getting a good sideways
burn without smoke-back , and a nice friendly Rockets Roar as it is fired ?

While it is possible that you could have several small problems that Collectively does not allow your final Vertical Chimney to get hot enough to keep
the water vapor that is a major component /waist product of ALL Wood Combustion- It is more likely that Not all your Cob is completely dry yet, simply
continuing to use your Rocket Mass Heater as needed should resolve this problem gradually over a few weeks to months !

You have come to the right place to get help, the more information you can share the easier it will be for your Fellow Rocketeers to figure out if you do
truly have a problem and how to fix it if so -

Think like Fire, Flow like a Gas, Dont be the Marshmallow ! For the Good of the Craft Big AL

Allen, thank you for respond.

My RMH is 1 month old. I fired it less than 10 times one hour each, a couple of times for 2 hours. The cob bench is not getting hot at all. I checked every hour for many hours, the cob bench is not hot at all. It is 18 inches high. The surface look like it is drying off.

Even the cob bench is wet, it is outside the flue, right? You mean the cob outside flue if wet can cause the flue with water?

May I ask what is other reasons make the flue with water?

Janet, it's simple.

Your mass is cold and wet. Thus, being way colder than the flue gases, which condense, and get you water in the flue. Burn it a few times for several hours at a time, that will help the drying of the mass. Btw, if you want a hot mass, usualy the burn time is 3 to 6 hours per day.

I can't burn for serveral hours at once. After one hour of burning I already had a lot of red charcoal at the bottom of feed tube and throat, burning start getting hard already. I can burn longest for 2 hours.

Do you have a lot of red charcoal at bottom of feed tube and throat or something is wrong with my RMH?

Sounds like you have some problems.

Are you sure of the dryness of your wood?

Is your feed tube insulated?

Do you feed small enough wood?

Or big enough once it hot?

How is your draft?

How tall is the chimney after the bench?

Is the chimney insulated?

Do you have a Peter channel?

Are you sure you're not cramming too much wood in your feed tube?

Satamax, this is Bacon. Erika said Bacon is not a good sounding name and I can't use that name. So I changed to a good sounding name.

Earlier this yeary you helped me with my RMH, but I gave up in the middle. I was tired redo my rmh many times because I made so many mistakes. I was thinking to have Erika to do it for me, but then i dont afford the cost. I thought of changing the type of fish so I don't have to have the RMH, but later I found out other types of fish doesn't eat vegetable which means i have to buy their food, which also mean regular extra spending for food. So I returned to work on RMH again. After a long break and read all the notes again, I did everything as I should, I thought I did it right.

The woods are dried. I can buy some wood from hardware store and burn them tomorrow and see.
My feedtube is insulated
My woods are small (two fingers) from the begining to the end. My tube doesn't burn good with big wood
My draft is fine, the flame go side way and good draw
The flue go from the bench to another barrel and then go up the roof (as in the clip) , above the roof the chimney is another 3 feet.
What is Peter channel?
If I cramp too much wood in the feed tube: I thought we suppose to put full the feed tube, right? That's what I tried to. How much wood should we have in the feed tube?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSnmJV5GUpc

Well, it doesn't look too bad in the video. What are thoses drips on the second barrel? Moisture leaks again? What is in there? Plain barrel for heating? Is the chimney tube plunging in there? Or is it flush with the top?

Could you gather some rockwool or glasswool batt insulation, and wrap it around the chimney? From that barrel, to the roof. That would help with the draft.

Basicaly, if it doesn't burn a log, when hot, you have a problem somewhere. I would guess a draft problem. If the flame goes sideways, it doesn't necessarly mean that it's rocketting well.

Your feed tube seems small to me.

Could you check the exhaust temperature on that stainless pipe out of the second barrel? Can you keep your hand on it, when the stove has been lit for an hour or so?

Peter channel:

Here's a picture from Adiel Shnior.



Basicaly, it's a metal plate, overhanging down from the burn tunnel about 10/11mm, and letting the air in. It also serve the purpose of not fitting too much wood in that feed tube.

Wood from the hardware store won't be any drier than yours i bet.


About your name, why don't you use your real one? There's no shame in not having an english name! I haven't


Ps: You know that burning for an hour each day, it might take three months to dry your rocket?

Satamax, I've just put roxul on the chimney. I also did some more insulation at the bottom of my feedtube (I didn't do a good job insulate the bottom). My feedtube actually half an inch deeper than it should, so I fix it with insulation.

I am thinking about how to do Peterchannel, will do it sometime today and then I wait until it's dry off then I will burn to see if it get better with less charcoal.

Before, Erik said we need 4 feet space around the feedtube for safeness. I managed to have 4 feet on the right, on the back behind the feedtube, on the top of the barrel, but the left side where the wall of the house is, I don't have 4 feet to the feedtube. As Erik said if we don't have 4 feet, we need a sheet metal as heat shield. The sheet metal costs much. So, what I did is I put a barrel there next to the feedtube as heat shield. Then I want to take advantage to run the flue in the barrel (from the bottom) to strip some more heat. At first I put cob in that barrel, that's why you see the drip which is from the wet cob. But then the next day I change my mind. I am afraid when I move then no one can carry that cob barrel, half a yard of cob in there. So, I took the cob out to put to the bench and in the heat shield barrel for now only dry sands. Erik was right. After I do every thing right and mind the heat for safeness, I feel much better.

Hopefully tomorrow it dry off then I can burn to see how it goes and I will try to burn big log to see.

you can put insulation in the clean out.
if you have a long bench, you can't add a barrel after it.

'' Janet Black " : One More time congratulations on your build, We have two problems to overcome here 1) the Language barrier, which you are working hard
to overcome, and 2) Your overseas location which makes it difficult to suggest a specific material to use which may be uncommon/rare or known locally only
by another name !

Please be sure you are confident you understand what someone means when they make suggestions to improve your build !

I watched Your video and as long as the wall behind Your RMH is not likely to burn I see no major problems. You may actually be extracting too much heat off
of your second barrel.

Your cob still contains massive amounts of water, AND about 20% of the weight of your Dryest firewood is water, PLUS because we get such a clean burn that
instead of wood smoke we get mostly CO2 and H2O -even more water vapor

Because the water trapped within the cob is many more times the volume of water vapor in the hot exhaust gasses, the end effect is that the water vapor in
the Hot exhaust gasses are cooled down below the point of condensation !

Rather than changing your present design, I believe you can just continue to slowly increase the burn times as your RMHs Mass dries out.

When you start your fire in the feed tube the air spaces between your fine split wood pieces acts like channels to draw in your air supply for your fire and
each burning piece of wood helps keep its neighbor alit and burning, some slight build up of charcoal within the Burn tunnel is common - But - at the end of
each burn ( standing in the dark) you should be able to L@@K down your Feed Tube and see that the sidewalls of your Burn tunnel are glowing at least a
Dull Red.

At this point the charcoal should have stopped multiplying within the Burn Tunnel and should have been burned up, Ether you are loading wrong -and the
'' Peter Channel '' should help solve the problem -or your Burn tunnel is not getting hot enough!

Perhaps a few more pictures might help ? For the good of the Crafts ! Big AL

Shilo, my bench is only 6 feet then u-turn for another 7 feet for the total of 13 feet. I ran it to the secon barrel of 4 feet. So my total thermal mass is only 17 feet. I am ok, right? And I had some roxul in the clean out.

Allen, I heard that the bench of 20 ft is ok. Mine as I total up above, only 17 ft, I am ok right? or should I empty out the sands from the heat shield barrel?

Not good news, I never see any color of dull red in my burn at any point at all. I've just did the Peter channel. Tomorrow I will burn and record the feed tube while it burns. Hope you can tell if I load it right, if I have good draw, and things. I will record my exhaust too, I think I have a little of white smoke.

Allen, I am here in CA, I am not from oversea.

Thanks

6" j can push 4m isa.
each barrel is 1.8m isa so 4-1.8-1.8=0.4
the 13f is 1.2 m isa
add the elbows and and the bare metal and you can sea that you have ask too much from this little fire.
cancel the second barrel and everything will improve.

shilo kinarty wrote:6" j can push 4m isa.
each barrel is 1.8m isa so 4-1.8-1.8=0.4
the 13f is 1.2 m isa
add the elbows and and the bare metal and you can sea that you have ask too much from this little fire.
cancel the second barrel and everything will improve.

Shilo, you have to remember that the second barrel is filled with sand. So not 1.86 And have you substracted the bottomm 1/3rd out of the pipe? Ernie says 45ft horizontal after the barrel. I say it's far far reached. To me this one should be able to push 20. 1 180°, -10ft, 1 90° entering the barrel -5ft, the wigley bit above that barrel 1 90° -5ft and the T after that 90° -5ft. So that's 25ft to substract. Remains 20.

But Janetbaconhien, you're sure on the verge. How tall is your chimney outside? Any building nearby? Exept if there's something real wrong inside. This should work.


One thing i haven't checked. Are you real sure of your top gap above the heat riser? How is the transition area from barrel to bench?

Now I don't understand at all your calculation, 1.9, 1.8 ... what?

Today when I burn well I thought no more build up of red charcoal, but then still a lot. I can burn for 2 hours, but at the end still a lot of red charcoal, why?

Satamax, my neighborhood have no tall building. and tape my exhaust so you can see I do have smoke. Is my exhause high enough?

I don't have good temperature like other people. THey said they have 800 on top barrel, I have only 550-600

I have 2.5" from heat riser to top

Now you see the burn, please let me know if I have good draw. I don't know if I have good draw or not. I thought if the flame go sideway into the barrel which means we have good draw.

Here are the clips https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDFMpJBwQ0&list=PLvS0g43jbOiIoFksVsPKvs6xjV3d5rPNu

Satamax, I forgot: I did the manifold the way Thomas showed me. I cut a retangle from the barrel of 14X9 and out 5 inchies. And what do you mean I am on the verge? Am I at the edge about to fall of the clip into the ocean? My, that doesn't sound good at all.

Please diagnose the problem of my RMH. Later when it's cool off I will record the ashes, a lot for one burn. I have to vacumn every burn otherwise I can't have another burn, because of a lot of ashes

HienJanet.

Your burn seems all right. I think the culprit is that the mass needs to dry out; that's all. Better than what i thought. Keep burning it!

Hello
I think you are right about the dripping clean out, the cob when dried off, I don’t have a dripping clean out any more. Yesterday little wet at the lip of the cap. Today, no wet at all. So my cob is dried off I think.

But I still have big problem with red charcoals. Today I can’t even burn for one hour, because red charcoals were full the feedtube and burn chamber (I used small wood today). I observe to find out what is wrong causing a lot of red charcoals, here is what I think. I hope you can evaluate my theory to see if it makes sense before I break things down to fix it:

As I observed, the reason I has a lot of red charcoals was because I have burn-up problem. To fix my burn-up, I break the tips of the burning woods to bring the flame down. As the tips are not done burning, those breaking tips lying at bottom while others burning woods are on top of them. Those tips don’t have oxygen to burn so they maintain there pile up.

My feedtube is only 2 brick layers. 1 layer is the burn tunnel, and only one layer above it for the feedtube, so high feedtube is not the reason of my burning up. However, here is what I did: I have my feed tube insulated all the way to the top. As the feedtube insulate it storage heat and get very hot, the woods start burn up feedtube. I think I have to break down this one layer to take out the insulation to fix my problem of build-up red charcoal. Do you think my theory makes sense? Do we suppose to insulate our feedtube to the top? If you insulated your feedtube and you are doing ok, please let me know. I have to continue to see what is the other reason(s) then.
Your opinion is appreciated so please let me know and thanks

Ouch!

I don't like what i read!

Your burn tunnel is only one brick high? 4" 1/2 high? or you went with the bricks standing upright?

Wide ans low burn tunnels are known for not working well!


But for your fire creeping up, there's a trick before you tear appart a fine heater. when you have coal buildup, put a little less wood and cover half of the feed or may be a little less with a firebrick, to accelerate the gases downwards. A Peter channel would help too.


Having the bricks real hot in the bottom of the feed and burn tunnel is the point, you burn leftover gases this way!

Check this thread: https://permies.com/t/32099/rocket-stoves/doubling-power-RMH-cooling-feed

I think something like this, implemented as a feed cooler and Peter channel would work i think.

Janet Black : In the future you will be thew expert that other New Rocketeers come to for advice! You are learning 5 Xs more diagnosing your problems
then the guy who was both Skilled and lucky enough to get a smoothening RMH That did not have any 'Birthing Problems " !

OK, Now we are going to try some thing different, select out some short very dry wood that when it is in place in your Feed Tube, Nothing sticks out above
its flat top Get a good burn going and then in order to stop your Burn-up problems We are going to REDUCE the amount of air that you are drawing into the
mouth of your Feed tube. We will do this buy laying one or two flat bricks or stones across the top of the Feed Tube. This will actually result in speeding up
the flow of air in the spaces between your wood chunks.

This should greatly reduce the amount of "Burn-up' you are getting, your new burn should be a little louder and you should not need to break off the burning
tips of your wood down in the Burn tunnel, with practice your amount of charcoal should decrease remarkably !

You will have to experiment to find the way that works best for you, i expect that perhaps you will do better with a very small or now 'Peter Channel to start
and then add more air as the inside walls of your Burn tunnel start to glow red !

Just keep trying - We can propose ideas to help you have to solve the problem yourself _ good luck ! Big AL

Allen and Satamax,

Thank you for confirming about my RMH issue. Getting a brick cover the feedtube is an easy solution. But I think I will do it the long way. As I told you before, the whole reason I did RMH is because I need hot water for my tropical fishes. And thank you Satamax for the link, I think I it's a good idea to take this chance of fixing the feedtube and make some hot water for the fishes. Please see if I am ok doing this:

I will have copper tube and cob to make the feedtube, I will run cold water from the pond through this tube and returning the hot water to pond for the fishes. The copper tube will be forming a coil of 6" diameter, then I will have cob wrap around inside and outside the coil to form the square tube the side I need 5.25 X 5.25. Does this sound ok? Do you see any problem with this?

Allen, it is hard for others to diagnose the issue of my RMH, because I didn't report all issues. I only said my RMH has pile up red charcoal. I didn't mention other issues of burning up and what silly thing I did to fix that problem. In the futher if someone comes to the site for help of their RMH, we should request of them to make a list off all issues, big issues, small issues, tiny issues, and list out also what silly things they do trying to fix the issues.

Thank you very much for your help and advise. Please see if I am ok to do the above, and if you anticipate any issue with it

Janet Black : Again - you are our future, Future Rocketeers will be helped by your experience, I would rather listen to a Fellow member who built 1 RMH
and lived with it for a year than someone who built 10 RMHs and left them In other peoples homes for Them to find their own answers !

It L@@KS like you have a Cooling coil from a (beer) Wort cooler/chiller ! But I am not sure because I am seeing an odd number (3) of Tubing ends/fittings.

No ! I may have not Have understood your Proposed location to use the coil but Definitely you should not use it anywhere except after the Transitional Area
at the base of Your 55 Gallon Drum.

The inside diameter of the coil is much to small, And the location is to hot, The water flowing through the Coil would quickly climb to its boiling point and flash
to steam ! This will rupture the tubing and expose you to potential Scalding Live Steam burns

What is the surface temperature of the top of your Thermal Mass Bench ? Can you move your fish tanks to Your bench top ! Careful monitoring of your water
temps will be necessary But if you find your temps are running a little high you can just add several inches to the final height of your Thermal Bench this will
add addition heat energy storage, and as your final surface area increases the Surface Temperature will drop !

As a short term solution you can set your tanks up above Your thermal bench and then use insulation to trap a pocket of warmed air above your bench and
directly under your fish tanks !

Because of the small diameter of the coil you are considering using You would not be able to pump much water through the tubing and due to the resistance to
flow it will not flow through fast enough!

I would suggest that you take your questions about heating the water for your fish to our Permies Aquaponic Forum thread !

I expect that you will find that they recommend copper tubing with at least an inside diameter of 25 mm and a heavy duty pump !

If I have misunderstood what you are trying to do -Tell me again- but moving your fish tanks will be much faster and cheaper than the large diameter copper pipe
And the pump you would need to deliver heated water to your fish tank(s) For the good of the Craft ! Big AL

Allen, I don't like of steam burn at all. I rather be pretty!!!

And I don't like the idea of a brick cover the feedtube either. Fixing the feed tube should not take long, about one hour. So I rather pull out the roxul. I will do it tomorrow. Do you see anything of fixinig the feedtube?

Satamax, The high feedtube+burn chamber is actually actually 2 bricks and one thin slice 3/4 inche. My burning chamber is 5.25 all around. So the high of my burn chamber is 4.5+.75 =5.25, the feed tube high is s 1 brick, 4.5". After I fix the feedtube, if I don't see burn up any more, then maybe I will add one more layer for the feedtube

Allen, I forgot, my fish pond is round shape 6 ft diameter, I don't think I can put it on the bench, too big

Janet, i wouldn't cool the feed that way. I bet it would be too much. But i'm no expert. The first spot i would do this, is against the flue, in the sand barrel. Since you're heating the sand, which is insulative, and releasing most of it's accumulated heat back into the flue anyway.

But, if you were watercooling the feed it could turn out well too. I don't know. If you can strip that first layer of brick of the feed and replace that by your cobbed coper coil, why not. Not any further down into the burn tunnel!


Carefull, water and solid fuels can kill! Search for Boom squish, either here or at donkey's.


I remember where i have seen your dripping prob before, Wolf at Donkey's had the same. Fixed by plugging some roxul around or inside it.

http://donkey32.proboards.com/post/8852/thread

My goodness! I am just a lousy woman. I am not a big man or anything! Words like steam burn, solid fuel could be kill, Boom squist ... totally freak me out.

So, I rather do what I love and know is safe. I already broke the cob and ripped out the roxul. Sunday when it drys off, I will burned to see if the problem is solved. If not, then will continue from there

Hello

I burned today. I could burn for two hours. I noted the temperature is higher. At the top, before I fixed the feedtube, most of the time the temperature could be around 500-550. The hottest would 600 rarely if I could carefully burn for 2 hours. Today after I burned for 45 minutes, my heat seeker gun said "OH". I don't know what it mean, I look around and it said right on the gun (measure from -4 to 608). I think my top hotter than 608 after 45 minutes burn. So my RMH is now could go over 600 easily. I think the temperature rise compare to before is around 100-150 degree. I don't know what exactly temperature I have on the top since my heat seeker gun stopped at 608.

However, to the end, I can burn for 2 hours, I still have somewhat burn up, not much as before, and I still have red charcoal at the bottom. Not as much as before, but more than other people's. People said they have about 4 cup of ashes after 3 months burn. I think I have that much ashes after one burn. However, I am happy with this. If I want my RMH to be like other people, I think I have to find out a way to do the steel plate like the link Satamax gave me. But I am just a lousy woman. I don't know how to do that.

Yesterday when I took out the roxul, also I elongate my burn tunnel with about 3.5" (three of the half bricks on edge). The reason I did this is, I noted my feed tube and the feed tube in the link Satamax gave me have one think in common, they are right at or closed to attache to the barrel. The burn tunel was too short which make the feed tubt too closed to the heat riser, may be that's another the reason my feed tube was too hot, so I changed that too. With the 3.5" longer for the burn tunnel and the temperature still increase 100-150 degree. I am happy with my RMH, but I will keep in mind about the steel plate to see if I can somehow have it.

I don't want to give up. I want to find out why I still have problems of red charcoal and burn up. Even my RMH is much better now and get hotter too, but my RMH could be normal like others's, no red charcoal and no burn up, right? Please continue to think and give me advice of what else should I look into.

I think of one thing, the bottom of my feed tube (burn tunnel), I used full size bricks. The second layer i use half size bricks. Would this is the reason of the red charcoal and burn up? Because it takes longer for the full size bricks to bring up to the tempertature while the above layers get hotter and burn up ... Is this make sense at all? Should I make the bottom layer half size bricks and the second layer full size bricks?

Your oppions is greatly appreciate, please let me know

Janet, i think the first thing is the type of fuel you're using. First, to bring the brick up to temps, use sticks, may be finger sized, may be two or three loads. Then switch to bigger wood, like baby arm sized, to 3 inches. And it has to be absolutely bone dry.

try to add one more meter insulated chimney. with a wind hut

I think I will move the full size bricks to top layer and put the half size bricks to the bottom any way, other wise it will be in my mind forever. Will try to do it tomorrow and then burn it this sunday to see. I am happy with the temperature of my RMH now. I just need to find out the reason I have burn up and red charcoal.

Shilo, right now I have 1 meter of chimney up there, if add 2 more meters which will be total 3 times that high. My goodness, how is it going to stand firm? Total of 9 feet? Are you sure you said 2 more meters or 2 more feet? Please confirm, 2 more feet I can do it, 2 more meters I am scare

Satamax, bone dry, I doubt I have that. The wood I burned, I picked them up from the street last week. It look like dried, but I don't know how dry. Normally when I burn wet wood, at the end the wood foarming water at the woodend. These I don't see that, but bone dry I don't know. May I ask how many years the wood need to be bone dry?

Satamax, you have very good memory! you remember the threats which related to the matter we discuss. I don't know if you remmember if there is any clip recording the burn in the feed tube for more than a few minutes. I want to see if others burn different or the same at mine. Just try ti see if they have the burn above the burn turnel (where the second layer, the feed tube) or their burn is totally at the bottom layer, burn tunnel only, or even better, burning at the tip of the wood only (that would be amazing)

1 meter. 3 foot.
and try hardwood

If you picked your sticks up off the street last week, it makes a big difference what your climate is. You say you are in California; unless you are in a wetter zone, you may have good dry wood (considering the drought). That also depends on where the sticks came from before you picked them up.


I can second the advice to burn bigger pieces of wood once the fire is going well. When I fire ny kild (horizontal firebox 4 feet long), small wood builds up lots of coals because the wood falls apart before burning up. Large logs hold together until most of it is burnt, and the coals on the floor have enough time to finish burning before more fall on top of them.

janet, can you climb on the house? can you report here tow measurements?
1. the temp inside the top of the chimney
2. the temp of the air outside

Shilo, I am just a lousy woman, I can't claim up the roof of the house. To add more high to the chimney is a issue for me, because I have to ask my nephew to come help me with that. I try to ask him to come do it this sunday, he didn't respond yet. But then I can not burn on Sunday. I will be back home on Sunday but the temperature of my area is 90 this sunday. I don't want to burn on such a hot day, I am afraid.

About reporting the locations temperature, can I report the inside temperature at the 3rd clean out? The 3rd clean out is at the bottom of the upright chimey, so it should be not much different I hope. And the temperature of the air outside the chimney is the ouside temperature, I can put a thermometer on roof top to see.

Glen, I will follow Satamax with 2 loads of finger size, 1 load of baby arm size, and then big logs. The reason Idon't want to burn big logs because they didn't burn vigorously as skinny sticks. I notice the temperature of top of lower when I switch to big logs. Is this normal that temperature drops durning the burn? I thought the more we burn, the more the temperature rises, but I saw it drops

it's the most important data we need if we want to actually diagnose your problem and not just to try things.

"Big" is a relative term. I would simply use the largest wood that burns well in your RMH, which will leave the smallest amount of coals. It will also reduce burn-up as there will be fewer narrow chimneys between sticks for heat to travel up.

Shilo, so, it got to be on the roof where the air exhaust, right? at the 3rd clean out is not good huh? Ok, I have to think of some way to get that infor. Also, how do we measure the temperature of the air? We shoot the gun inside middle of the chimney or we shoot by the side (the metal of the chimney)? Or we put the regular thermometer inside for a few minutes?

Glen, I will try that, and also, is it normal for the RMH to have temperature falling during the burn? I thought temperature should be up and up?