something positive for a change...US supreme court rules in favor of EQUALITY and LOVE

a great step towards equality for all in this country yesterday......so long in coming....

We've had this for a while in Canada. Victoria has a big parade every year. Festivities last all week.

going through my old posts...
feeling a bit nostalgic  
💜🧡🧡💛❤️💚💙

Judith and others,

I have been thinking about this for several days on and off. This happened to coincide with a recent rereading of "http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html" "The Law". I am on my 3rd day reading it and it takes a lot for my brain to process the ideas in it. I have a tendency to read a paragraph of a deep writing and spend a day or two thinking about it.

Why on earth did our states or government ever get involved in this? It would make more sense to me for people to come together with a vow to one another, or whatever, and that is it. It would not matter if it is man and woman, woman and woman, man and man.

I guess because of all the "legal plundering" happening in our nation due to taxes, etc., there had to be some way for people to establish they are married "officially". Maybe for the same reason we have "birth certificates". That seems really funny to think about. That I need some agency or organization to establish the historical fact that we had a child or are married.

It would be good for people to have their individuality, liberty, and property protected. I am not sure we need some official document to say we are married. My opinion on how this would play out with this particular decision or situation really is not important. It will come to pass or not. I don't need anyone else to validate what comes of it because what comes of it will validate what it is, really.

Why on earth do we need some man made institution to tell us some practice is legitimate?
Do you think we need someone to tell us our marriage or children or is legitimate?

 Why on earth did our states or government ever get involved in this?  

Because some human beings were not being treated equally when there was no law or even under existing laws.
It's about equal rights and fairness for everyone.

I agree that government is very top heavy.

I also would love to see fewer rules and regulations.

BUT🙄
...apparently, for many reasons, when left to our own devices, we do not treat folks equally nor do we put clean air and water above profit.

as an aside: I posted the OP ten years ago and only bumped it back up to contrast with current politics.

Edit to add...

 Why on earth do we need some man made institution to tell us some practice is legitimate?  

Because other 'manmade institutions' prevent equality for all.
and I believe that many of our fellow travelers do not have equal rights without some legal support.

Josh Hoffman wrote:Why on earth did our states or government ever get involved in this?

I think it's essentially because everyone recognizes that (on average) people rooted in stable long-term families make better neighbors. And a society made up mostly of these stable families is more productive and safer for all.

We celebrate Juneteenth because it represents the ongoing healing of a major flaw in our nation as it was founded. Celebrating Obergefell v. Hodges follows that pattern. Since we do live in a nation with legally incentivized marriage, it's only just for our queer friends and neighbors to have access to that incentivization scheme. (And of course, aside from the justice of it, we all benefit from they too being rooted in productive stable families.)

  It would make more sense to me for people to come together with a vow to one another, or whatever, and that is it. It would not matter if it is man and woman, woman and woman, man and man.  

Quite utopian thinking there Josh!
I like it!

I don't know how to get there from here considering the present day USA?

All I can think is if there are gonna be laws then everyone should get to play...not just those who are the 'right' gender or color.

Judith Browning wrote:

Quite utopian thinking there Josh!
I like it!

I don't know how to get there from here considering the present day USA?

All I can think is if there are gonna be laws then everyone should get to play...not just those who are the 'right' gender or color.

It is hard not to say too much but....

I agree that it would take a lot dismantling for law to go back to only ensuring individual liberty and individual property rights. I would say a big part of why we are here is because we are no longer family/community oriented. We are national/global oriented. Everything becomes very abstract when the thinking is on those levels.

The law ought to protect us collectively but only to secure our individual liberty, methinks. Anytime the law takes my property, to do anything but secure my individualism/liberty/property, it makes the law a means of plunder, which is unlawful.

In this example, I would be not for marriage licenses at all. They are just a mechanism of ensuring the right level of plunder happens through taxes or divorce or whatever plunder mechanism you can think of. Families and communities are the mechanism of real accountability, philanthropy, equality. Those things are voluntary and have a local, not a national context.

It appears to me that *most times* when laws are made to address philanthropy (charity) or equality, a backhanded plunder happens. The thinking is that we should take from group a to give to group b. That could be job quotas, taxes, etc. You just shift the plundering from one group to another. Nothing really gets fixed.

There are 3 options:

1-The few plunder the many.
2-Everyone plunders everyone
3-Nobody plunders anyone

We are at number 2 in our culture, I believe. For me to expect to be *at* number 3 is somewhat utopian, I agree, but I'd sure like to be a lot closer than where we are. Even working towards it would be great.

 The law ought to protect us collectively but only to secure our individual liberty, methinks. Anytime the law takes my property, to do anything but secure my individualism/liberty/property, it makes the law a means of plunder, which is unlawful.

The word 'plunder' has me flummoxed?

I kinda think this country was based on plunder in some ways...I'm not sure there was a time when there was not plunder in some form whether by the government or individuals and groups.

There are likely many Native Americans who agree with your  definition of plunder.

By plunder do you mean taxes or actual stealing your land?

I think we've wandered away from  LGBTQ+ parades and same sex marriages 😏

Judith Browning wrote:I think we've wandered away from parades and same sex marriages 😏

Agree. Moving towards something more at the foundation of why it would would be necessary for "law" to decide if it is right or wrong. A topic for another thread.

PS. I am really enjoying watching your garden thread in the pics!

thank you Josh!
I appreciate hearing your views even when we are looking at things differently.