Creator of Shire Silver, a precious metals based currency. I work on a permaculture farm. Old nerd. Father.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Bruce Woodford wrote:I have installed a "T" joint with a cap in my flue just before it enters the chimney. So as soon as my fire has burned down as low as I want it and most coals are gone, I remove the cap, place some rolled up insulation into the flue going to the chimney and this totally stops the draft and keeps all the heat INSIDE the house!
When in use, make sure [chimneys] vent properly to allow gas to escape from enclosed areas. Don't close the fireplace or damper before the fire is completely out.
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Many RMH videos show people adjusting or blocking the flow of air by placing a couple fire bricks across the top of the feed tube. By closing the feed end, you greatly reduce the amount of air that enters the system. With this reduction, the amount of thermosiphoning that can take air through your burn area and up out the chimney is also greatly reduced, but it is enough to get any possible gasses out just as Thekla wrote.I prefer the strategy of blocking where the air flow goes into the rocket stove, which will allow waste gasses to exit, but prevents the kind of draft running through that would strip all the heat out of the mass and send it up and out.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Bruce Woodford wrote:Also I know that the ideal aim is to have only ash residue and no coals, but how many RMH builders achieve that consistently??? I'd be interested to find out. Would others like to check in on this?
Creator of Shire Silver, a precious metals based currency. I work on a permaculture farm. Old nerd. Father.
Bruce Woodford wrote:Hi Ron, If you burn a lot of paper, that sure wouldn't produce coals at all. What do you mean by "junky wood"? What sort of diameter are you talking about? Small twigs won't make coals either. If you burn sticks or firewood with a cross sectional size of 1 to 4 square inches what happens? Any coals left then? Just wondering.
Creator of Shire Silver, a precious metals based currency. I work on a permaculture farm. Old nerd. Father.
Ron Helwig wrote:
I split my wood to less than an inch square or so cross section, but then I need to because it is only a 6" system. No room for anything bigger.
Some of the wood has started rotting. Some of it is old pallet wood. Some is 2xX leftovers from building stuff that I split.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, Bruce. If I'm visualizing this right, then you have placed a large amount of mass in the form of contained sand directly around your barrel (drum); Is that right?My integral mass, a tank containing sand surrounding my drum definitely stores the major portion of my heat. It often heats up to 140 F and the radiation from it can be felt across the room.
If you are referring to me writing about increasing the efficiency of an RMH, by storing more heat in mass near your barrel, then it seems I need to elaborate. Again this is the way I personally understand it: the mass should be nearby, but not against the barrel. The barrel will do the radiating from all exposed surfaces in all directions outward from it. A mass of stone against a nearby wall or a couch-like back on a cob bench will absorb this radiated heat, and later slowly release it into the room. If you were to have a tank of sand near your barrel, but not touching it, then I think you would gain more efficiency that what you presently have. Again, I might be wrong about this. Someone with more experience would know though.One suggestion above was regarding having a mass to store heat as close as possible to the core.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
I think that explains why you don't have coals. I too have a 6" system but most of my wood is just split so 4 or 5 pieces fit into my burn tube at once.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Bruce Woodford wrote: Also I know that the ideal aim is to have only ash residue and no coals, but how many RMH builders achieve that consistently??? I'd be interested to find out. Would others like to check in on this? One suggestion above was regarding having a mass to store heat as close as possible to the core. My integral mass, a tank containing sand surrounding my drum definitely stores the major portion of my heat. It often heats up to 140 F and the radiation from it can be felt across the room.
Best luck: satisfaction
Greatest curse, greed
I agree with this except that I think that the biggest contributor to the rockety-ness is the insulated burn tunnel and heat riser with it's vortex of concentrated heat working off of itself. The drum does contribute to the rocket effect, as does having the vertical chimney right near the barrel so that the draught is increased by the radiant drum heat.About the tanks containing sand, which surrounds your drum, I know Robert has talked about this. The one thing I may have missed and want to be sure is mentioned is the fact that the exposed sides of the drum are a big contributor to the rocekty-ness. The cooling of the gases- as the drum radiates heat- makes the gases shrink in volume, which pulls the air current coming through the fire. I could be wrong, but I think this is actually the biggest contributor to the rocket, this rapid cooling inside, which seems like it would be lost if the drum when the drum was encased in sand.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
If you are referring to me writing about increasing the efficiency of an RMH, by storing more heat in mass near your barrel, then it seems I need to elaborate. Again this is the way I personally understand it: the mass should be nearby, but not against the barrel. The barrel will do the radiating from all exposed surfaces in all directions outward from it. A mass of stone against a nearby wall or a couch-like back on a cob bench will absorb this radiated heat, and later slowly release it into the room. If you were to have a tank of sand near your barrel, but not touching it, then I think you would gain more efficiency that what you presently have. Again, I might be wrong about this. Someone with more experience would know though.One suggestion above was regarding having a mass to store heat as close as possible to the core.
Glenn Herbert wrote:I agree that the greatest contributor to rocketyness is the insulated burn tunnel & riser. Per statements by Erica Wisner, people who have cobbed around the barrel have sometimes found a reduction in draft, which is restored when the cob is removed. The same would go for a tank of sand. Sand is actually more insulating than cob because of the millions of tiny air spaces.
A bare barrel radiates maximum heat; any mass touching the barrel (aside from maybe solid plate steel) will heat up and reduce the rate of heat transmission from the barrel, reducing the temperature difference from riser to barrel and thus the rocketyness.
Thanks for your contribution Thekla. As I understand it, the purpose of the drum is to cool the flu gases as much and as quickly as possible. I am doing this with the surrounding integral mass of sand. When I ran it totally exposed to the air my temps at the horizontal tube coming out of the drum were always 400F or higher once the unit got all heated up. But with the sand mass around the barrel it runs between 300 and 375F and has never reached 400F. So I know that the sand mass cools more efficiently than air would. My barrel is about 1/3 exposed to the air (which is plenty to heat the surrounding space fairly quickly) and 2/3 in the sand.
appears, and I just cut and past into that space, and it goes white like
. I hope that's helpful.This
I conclude from that that sand absorbs heat better and faster than air.
So if cooling the drum makes a system more "rockety", it seems to me that sand accomplishes the purpose better than air. Am I wrong?
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
I think that this is the case.the sand is actually lowering the flow of air through the system, (by not releasing as much heat, giving less shrinkage of gases) cutting down the speed of the burn, resulting in lower temperatures in the burn tunnel and thus lower temperatures at the barrel outflow?
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Roberto pokachinni wrote:So when I quote, I click on the quote button that is above the box that I am writing this reply in. There are other icon buttons like b and i and u there as well. So after clicking quote,
appears, and I just cut and past into that space, and it goes white like
. I hope that's helpful.This
I really don't understand your system. Perhaps I'm missing something, but is your entire system steel? Including your core? Or is it an insulated brick and clay mortar core that is just encased in sand and steel?
It looks like your mass bench is mortared stone surrounding a bin of sand. Is that what you meant by the sand tank? Does the exhaust from your manifold go through the sand bed? If so, that's a lot different than what I thought.
I conclude from that that sand absorbs heat better and faster than air.
So if cooling the drum makes a system more "rockety", it seems to me that sand accomplishes the purpose better than air. Am I wrong?
I think that the barrel throwing heat into the air is not the same as the sand absorbing the heat. Certainly the air absorbs the radiated heat into it's mass (which is small particles dispersed in the space with large spaces), and the heat excites the air and the air reacts to the heat by expanding the spaces between it's particles and creating convection currents, and at the same time waves of radiation moves through the air to objects beyond, where it is absorbed and later re-radiated. The radiant heat, dispersed rapidly outward from the barrel (which is what you want, optimally with a rocket stove barrel, from what I understand), so that the barrel is consistently losing heat by throwing it off in the form of radiation, which is "cooling" the barrel. Not really cooling it, but the air is definitely cooler than the barrel, and the barrel is throwing heat into the air. What you have described, if I understand, is that the sand surrounding your barrel is conducting the heat away from the barrel, which is not very efficient because the sand will also be holding heat to the barrel, so it is not cooling the barrel as fast or consistently as a traditiionally built RMH. It seems to go counter to RMH theory. I'm not saying that it's wrong, (you may have an innovation worth looking into) but it seems like it's not done the way that I understand works best for RMH.
If it is your intention to have a mass absorb heat from your barrel, it would be better to use a denser material than sand (like clay, or stone, or concrete), but the sand in your case is also a thermal mass, for sure, and it will hold that heat directly to your barrel system.
I don't think that Glenn was saying that sand was insulation, but that it was insulating... when compared to denser mass materials. If you are looking for mass, sand is good, but... there are better choices.
I may be missing something about your build that throws a bunch of what I wrote in this post out the window. Still curious. More questions in my mind, but need to bounce them around in there for a bit first.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."-Margaret Mead "The only thing worse than being blind, is having sight but no vision."-Helen Keller
Roberto pokachinni wrote:By the looks of your drawings, your air baffle also serves the purpose of taking up the space where a cooler vortex or eddy would happen in that space towards your clean out cap/away from your burn vortex direction. This alone, is probably very helpful from a fluid dynamics/thermodynamics point of view. There is less space for coals to accumulate. There is less space for cooling where you are initiating your burn.
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