new video
hot off the press!  
    more about rocket
mass heaters here.
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Immunizations for Children Part 2  RSS feed

 
Rob Sigg
Posts: 715
Location: PA-Zone 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The last thread that was posted on this subject turned into a debate on vaccines, autism etc. Im not looking for evidence on anything in this thread. If you have some compelling information you would like to send to me please message it to me, and I will gladly read it. I just don’t want my original purpose for this thread to be hijacked. My purpose is basically to get other peoples experiences on the questions below.


So my wife and I are expecting our first child and we have come to the conclusion that we do not want to get him vaccinated for sure. We are still researching the eye ointment and we are opposed to the vitamin K shot.

My questions for all of you are:

1. Have you had unvaccinated children and what were your challenges and successes
2. Do you have suggestions on overcoming those challenges
3. Overall how healthy have your unvaccinated children been compared to those who were vaccinated.


Thanks everyone for your serious consideration for this serious topic.
*edit This thread will be locked if it goes off topic again, so please help me out in making this constructive.
 
Emerson White
Posts: 1206
Location: Alaska
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Assuming this is not what Mollison would call a "Type 1 error"

There is a concrete and well studied risk associated with vaccination, and that is why there is a very generous vaccine court to repair (to the extent that money can) any damages from vaccines. Here is a website on the known risks from vaccinations.

Unvaccinated children are only at risk of developing diseases that they are exposed to. Vaccinating your self and your wife and any children or adolescents likely to be in contact with your child for pertussis will reduce the risk of that relatively common pathogen.

The immunologic load is equivalent to a fraction of a percentage of the digestive tract development process.

If you do not vaccinate your child your number one priority should be making sure that their friends all have their vaccinations, and that their school is highly vaccinated. You may also want to avoid airports, buss stations, cruise ships, swimming pools, movie theaters and malls. Once they are a teenager the risk of life shattering injuries do to infection are greatly reduced, so you can ease up at that point.

Edited to add map:
 
Rob Sigg
Posts: 715
Location: PA-Zone 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I will respond to your questions by PM so as not to disrupt the original content of the thread. I don't want everyone's experiences to be locked up again
 
                    
Posts: 0
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hmmm.  Post a topic and then carry on a "discussion" by PM.   
Sounds like a great idea! 


 
Emerson White
Posts: 1206
Location: Alaska
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It's an off topic discussion, it has nothing to do with this thread and everything to do with why the last thread was locked. The mistake was letting you know it was going on 
 
Jami McBride
gardener
Posts: 1948
Location: PNW Oregon
25
books chicken duck food preservation forest garden hugelkultur trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Back to the topic....

The following can be found on this post http://www.permies.com/bb/index.php?topic=5638.msg48686#msg48686



Born in 1960 I have never been vaccinated, my kids have not been vaccinated, and I will not be using vaccines when I get out on land with my animals.  So this thread is something I feel passionate about *grin* and passionate that others should follow their conscious, and do what they feel is right for their families and animals.

I hope we don't get off of the topic and start up the old debate of pros and cons of vaccines.  But this topic of how can one limit or avoid vaccines for their animals is good. 



1. Have you had unvaccinated children and what were your challenges and successes

Yes.... and
I have had Measles but not Mumphs or Chickenpox.  I ran my children, when they were young, to every friend's house with a break out of childhood diseases for play dates.  They caught nothing, which displeased me as I wanted them to build up a great immunity.  Later on while complaining about this to a doctor he said they may have built their immunity without succumbing (sp?) to the disease - hum, I feel better about that idea.

Successes - overall health and well being.  Challenges - the government, public opinion and the public school system.

2. Do you have suggestions on overcoming those challenges

Yes, (1) don't tell people, agencies, etc.  (2) homeschool when ever possible *big grin*  (3) Forage an immunization record - really, so simple I wonder why more people don't do it.

3. Overall how healthy have your unvaccinated children been compared to those who were vaccinated.

Well, very.... but this is a loaded question because overall health is very dependent on diet, life style choices and exposure to chemicals and stressors.  So we cannot compare vaccinated with un-vaccinated unless all other factors a identical.

A VERY general comparison would reveal -
My children have only had flu once in their childhoods as compared with their peers who can have it every year or even twice in a year.  My kids do get colds when exposed directly to sick people, but recover quickly.  We do things like take extra V-C, garlic in honey and use hydrogen peroxide in their ears when symptoms appear.  And of course they had no childhood dis - eases.

My now 18 year old son has a week immune system as he is handicapped, my daughter is 16, and both are very healthy.

I hope this helps!


 
Rob Sigg
Posts: 715
Location: PA-Zone 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Great info! I really enjoy hearing about peoples experiences with this. I just had one question though…sorry but I don’t know what “Forage an immunization record” means!?

Thanks for the other link, I missed that one in my initial search on the topic 

 
paul wheaton
master steward
Posts: 22178
Location: missoula, montana (zone 4)
bee chicken hugelkultur trees wofati woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yeah .... I think Rob and Jami have a good point.  Rob is fishing for a certain kind of info.  I think it would be respectful of him to start a new thread that addresses what Emerson wants to talk about so that the odds of Rob's thread getting closed is diminished. 

Once the new thread gets going, I'll come through this thread and delete the off-topic stuff.

 
Jocelyn Campbell
master steward
Posts: 4147
Location: Missoula, MT
389
books food preservation forest garden hugelkultur toxin-ectomy
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Rob S. aka Blitz wrote:
<snip>
So my wife and I are expecting our first child and we have come to the conclusion that we do not want to get him vaccinated for sure. <snip>My questions for all of you are:

1. Have you had unvaccinated children and what were your challenges and successes
2. Do you have suggestions on overcoming those challenges
3. Overall how healthy have your unvaccinated children been compared to those who were vaccinated.
<snip>


Congratulations! 

1. My unvaccinated children are now 22 and 15 years of age.

Challenges: judgment by doctors, family and friends. I've also had some worry over whether I should have given them one or two of the vaccinations, one being the rubella vaccination for my daughter.

Successes: I signed a "personal exemption" on the immunization form (might not be available in all states--some states only have "religious exemptions" which allowed me to give the schools the paperwork they require, though it says I agree to keep my kids home in an outbreak situation. Not one time were my kids asked to stay home from school. Additionally, they successfully had and overcame chicken pox and they have had very, very few antibiotics compared to other children I know.

(Chicken pox sidebar: it's my understanding that contracting the virus imparts lifelong immunity, while the vaccine wears off for many once they reach adulthood. I've heard that getting chicken pox as an adult--maybe even a teen--is when it's dangerous because it causes sterility.)

2. I'm still working on the judgment thing. Even when doctors hear you've used herbs to treat a virus or infection, they get this look on their face like you're a crazy hippie or something. (And that's even with mild-mannered me, and I think sometimes I look a bit more like a corporate accountant than a hippie!) Recently, I was asked by a medical professional if I wanted to immunize my 15-year-old, and I simply politely and quietly replied, "no, thank you." They didn't press it.

Excellent resource for all of this: Mothering magazine. SO helpful!!

3. My kids are healthy! My 22-year-old 5'11" daughter is very healthy, as is my 15-year-old 6'3" son though he has been plagued by some food and airborne allergies. (Definitely no problems with "failure to thrive here! No known problems with autism spectrum disorders, either.) Both are sensitive to milk products; so as long as they didn't have dairy, they didn't have ear infections. I think in some respects they have been healthier than other kids, but I'm not sure if it's related to immunizations. Genetics are at play here (overall hearty size and dairy issues are definitely in the genes), and as Jami said, overall health is also related to things like food, childcare, stress, etc.

I know you have already made your decision, but I'd like to add that while I am happy I didn't vaccinate, I would never tell another parent what to choose in this regard. It's too big and stressful and volatile of an issue.

I am quite angry, however, that most parents don't know they have a choice (in the State of Washington anyway). I can't tell you how many parents have said to me that they read the possible side effects of the immunizations and then were told they would have to get them any way if they wanted their children to go to school. Their doctors and nurses lied to them. Your kids CAN go to school without vaccinations. Some of those parents would have made different choices if they'd known that.
 
Emerson White
Posts: 1206
Location: Alaska
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Jocelyn Campbell wrote:

(Chicken pox sidebar: it's my understanding that contracting the virus imparts lifelong immunity, while the vaccine wears off for many once they reach adulthood. I've heard that getting chicken pox as an adult--maybe even a teen--is when it's dangerous because it causes sterility.)



Chicken pox infection does not confer life long immunity, it does however confer a life long chronic spinal nerve infection. Ever hear of shingles? That's chicken pox when it wakes up in an adult. The chicken pox vaccine was originally developed for adults who had chicken pox and wanted to reduce their chances of getting shingles. The vaccines haven't warn off of any children yet, but people are on the look out for it. Like the HPV vaccine no one is sure how long it will last.The current plan is to give a booster shot if/after the first one wears off, like we do with tetanus or pertussis. Pox parties are rarer and rarer these days, as herd immunity has most of it shut down. Anyone who has had chicken pox can shed the virus at any time, but mostly it just happens during a shingles event. And people usually successfully avoid others when that happens, because it's so painful.
 
Jocelyn Campbell
master steward
Posts: 4147
Location: Missoula, MT
389
books food preservation forest garden hugelkultur toxin-ectomy
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Good clarification on how the chicken pox virus behaves, but there is still the issue of sterility.

Emerson White wrote:
The vaccines haven't warn off of any children yet, but people are on the look out for it.


I'm not sure how you can state this unequivocally. I've heard differently. Though let's just leave it as a difference of opinion, since this is not what this thread was supposed to be about. (Sorry Rob and Paul!)

In my opinion, while it is so wonderful we have so much amazing medical science, we are still doing the best with what we know so far. Medical mores change.
 
Rob Sigg
Posts: 715
Location: PA-Zone 6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the great info Jocelyn!


I also wanted to mention to everyone that since some people might not feel comfortable sharing their experiences publically I would love to hear about them, just send me a PM if you don't want to post on here.
 
Jocelyn Campbell
master steward
Posts: 4147
Location: Missoula, MT
389
books food preservation forest garden hugelkultur toxin-ectomy
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You're welcome, Rob!

Forgot to mention that a few years back there was a pertussis/whooping cough outbreak in my county. Even then, my kids were not asked to stay home from school and they never caught/had pertussis.
 
Jami McBride
gardener
Posts: 1948
Location: PNW Oregon
25
books chicken duck food preservation forest garden hugelkultur trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
An update to my previous post - I asked my mom and I did have chicken pox, just not mumps.

I posted somewhere on another thread -  that I do believe in the science of vaccinating, but not how it is carried out, especially here in the US.  Specifically the preservatives (heavy metals), the strength/concentrations and dosing rates are some of the reasons why I decided as a mother not to vaccinate.  Not all vaccines, in all countries are the same, or given at the same doses and rates.

As for my mother - she didn't have confidence in any medical 'drugs' period.  So she didn't follow the doctors advise and put me on Ritalin when the doctor prescribed it for me as a child in the 60's - way back then parents, no one in the public really, knew about the side affects of Ritalin.  So not vaccinating was in keeping with her beliefs...... I don't know what the public was told about vaccines back then, but I bet it wasn't what we know now, and even now I do not assume we know it all. 

I feel strongly that parents should have the choice of all medications for the children, along with all the facts and information so they can make the best decisions for their families, without coercion. 

As parents we all need to do our own research, like Rob is doing here, and consider our choices carefully, making the best decisions in keeping with our conscience.  Parenthood is a high calling with a lot of responsibility.  We all want the best for our children, and hopefully in America we can have the freedom to choose what that is for our own families without prejudice. 

As for me - I am not suggesting anyone follow my choices, just that they do not ask that I follow theirs.  A lot of fear tactics are used to scare people into making their 'so called' choices - it's a shame really.  information is power.

This post may seem a little heavy handed, but I'm receiving unwanted pm's regarding this subject and I hope stating things clearly will put a stop to them.



 
                    
Posts: 0
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm one of the earliest members of the baby boomers. As a child I had two friends (brothers) develop polio. I do remember being vaccinated against polio myself. In later years I found out those two had not been vaccinated.

I also lost a sibling, a brother who predated me, to whopping cough. He had not been vaccinated.

I did have all the childhood diseases, except that mumps did not arrive until I was well into my teens. I can remember it being very painful.

So over the years I've received all sorts of shots, partly from the public health requirements as a child and partly because of the requirements of travel to assorted worldwide exotic ports of call.

I don't know if the vaccinations did me any harm, but I do know I am alive and since I figured out some food sensitivities healthier than I've been in a long time.

If I was a child today I would be placed in the autism spectrum. Back then I was placed in the trouble category, visited the school principle office  a lot and later was simply considered the strange kid on the block. I do not place blame on any vaccine though as when researching my family tree I found relatives going way back who I could identify with. I believe it's genetic. Maybe some issues with food allergies.

Anyhow I believe in vaccines.

 
Julia Winter
steward
Posts: 2047
Location: Moved from south central WI to Portland, OR
174
bee bike chicken food preservation hugelkultur urban
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I had chicken pox in 6th grade. I missed three weeks of school, and the story is that my fever went to 106.7 F. I don't recall exactly, however I do recall thinking my mom was crazy, because I was FREEZING and she took off all my clothes and put me in a bathtub of cold water. (And no, my brain didn't melt. Apparently fever gets truly dangerous at 108 F.) I have some scars from that - I tried very hard not to scratch the blisters, but there were hundreds of them and they were SO itchy after they stopped hurting.

I had mumps at a younger age, I recall it as being very painful, but not weeks of illness. I'm female, so I didn't have to worry about orchitis (which is when the infection goes into the testicles, and aside from being super painful, can lead to sterility).

I was immunized against pertussis with the old whole cell vaccine, the DTP. As far as I know, no problems from that. I was actually immunized against smallpox and have the scar to prove it. I don't know if I still have immunity, but it sure helped me feel better back in 2001 when white powder was getting mailed around to politicians and academics.

I've had three babies die from pertussis in my care (I am a pediatrician.) The most recent was in an Amish family in 2013. Nobody was immunized. The baby was breast fed, the family ate a lot of healthy food they had produced themselves on their farm. The older children got the whooping cough, and the infant died, despite our best efforts. The parents were very stoic, saying that it was God's will. I was upset for. . . well, I think I'm still upset.

I have immunized thousands of kids in the past twenty years, with all the vaccines. None of them have had a serious vaccine reaction. I frequently ask my colleagues about their experiences and they can't come up with any either. In 2014 I (finally) met a mother whose child had a severe reaction to the old DTP vaccine. The baby cried inconsolably for hours, she just screamed. She ended up at the emergency room, and the mom remembers being told "your baby is allergic to the pertussis vaccine and should not get any more. And, her kids should not get any pertussis vaccine." This mother was in my exam room, with the baby in question, now in her 30's and there with her own baby. It was a scary event, but she had no lasting ill effects from it. They said "We know the pertussis vaccine has changed, and we want to give it to Joey." So we did. And, he got a big swollen hot red leg, like we used to see (I'm told by older pediatricians) with the old DTP vaccine. And I thought hmmmm, maybe we shouldn't give this kid any more pertussis vaccines. My plan is to draw titers for antibody response. It sure looked like he had a strong response - he may be immune with just one exposure.

My father had polio as a child, and suffered from post-polio syndrome in his 60's and 70's, which decreased his quality of life and likely shortened his life since he couldn't exercise without pain.

We have some families in our practice in Oregon who have side stepped our vaccine policy and are way behind on vaccinations. Last winter an under-immunized 18 month old was hospitalized for a month with strep pneumo, the infection that Prevnar prevents. He didn't just get pneumonia, he got necrotizing pneumonia. He was on a ventilator for a week, in the ICU for 8 days, and then went into renal failure because apparently that's a thing that happens when you have pneumococcus. He needed dialysis for a couple of weeks, and then he needed physical therapy and occupational therapy and speech therapy, because he'd been so sick for so long. He and his siblings are getting caught up on their vaccines now - mom's had a change of heart.

That case led to a change in my behavior. When I had vaccine fearful parents, I used to insist on the pertussis, since I've personally experienced multiple sick babies with that, but I didn't insist on the Prevnar. Now I do. I have some babies that get a Pentacel at 2 months at the physical, then they drop by at 3 months for the Prevnar (shot only visit - 5 minutes), then another Pentacel at the 4 month, coming in monthly for one poke at a time. I'm OK with delaying the hep B - the risk of that is low in childhood. I'm OK with skipping the rotavirus vaccine: rotavirus is nasty, it gives a baby diarrhea that smells like rotten tropical fruit, but nobody is going to die from diarrhea in the United States, you'll just have to spend a week in the hospital getting IV fluid. I think the MMR is very important, and it's been studied to death. The guy who tried to link it to autism has been shown to have taken money from lawyers working on a lawsuit, and has been shown to have actually faked his numbers. Varicella, eh, you can delay it if you want, you're just increasing the chance of a more severe illness. It's really, really hard to find live varicella out there for a "chicken pox party." I won't even start with HPV. Suffice to say I have two children and I've given them all the vaccines, on the typical schedule.

And it went fine.
 
Pat R Mann
Posts: 32
Location: Seattle, WA
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks for the excellent information Julia.

Personally, I've had measles, mumps, and chicken pox - I assume the vaccines weren't widely available yet when I was a kid. I did get vaccinated against polio and small pox.

I doubt that having gone through these illnesses made me any healthier. But I do believe that a childhood spent playing outdoors, and parents that were not germophobic, helped me acquire a good immune system.
 
Rachel Dee
Posts: 34
1
bee food preservation fungi
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Eye ointment isn't recommended unless necessary anymore (In Canada) and vit K shot should only be considered if it was a really hard birth and there might be a high risk of hemorrhage.

My questions for all of you are:

1. Have you had unvaccinated children and what were your challenges and successes

Yes, my 10 month old. It wasn't a challenge because I avoided going to the hospital to give birth.

2. Do you have suggestions on overcoming those challenges

Don't talk about it. Respect other people's choices to vaccinate. With doctors, I just tell them that I'm waiting for a while. It's not a complete refusal, it's just waiting a while longer to do it (which is BS. I'm simply not going to do it.) In 10 months, we've been downtown New York, downtown Montréal, lots of contact with other sick children. When he's sick, we avoid contact with others to avoid contamination. I wish more people would do this.

3. Overall how healthy have your unvaccinated children been compared to those who were vaccinated.

No issues. 2 colds, probably rubella, but nothing so serious I would think of using acetaminophen or antibiotics. Me & my partner get a cold once a year, nothing else, so it's mostly our lifestyle & diets.

 
My, my, aren't you a big fella. Here, have a tiny ad:
Systems of Beekeeping Course - Winterization Now Available
https://permies.com/t/69572/Systems-Beekeeping-Winterization
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!