Persimmons in zone 8a/desert of Utah with rain water harvesting.

Maybe this is all wrong,
but having seen some other ideas, and coming up with some of my own, I came up with this.

It was a lot of work and hopefully it doesn't drown the trees, or do something equally as bad.



First week of January 2017.  Three persimmons planted (Fuyu, hachiya, and chocolate), along with a Mormon apricot/Chinese apricot tree.  

Feel free to critique anything I did (I know that peat moss is a no, no), or expand upon/give me other ideas.

It'd be cool to try and plant some vegetables in front of the trees, and I think I'm going to give it a try.

Anyway, thanks for looking.

Nice work on the addition of the fruit-bearing trees, Scott! I am a beginner in permaculture, but for what it's worth, it might be a good idea to add some nitrogen-fixing plants near the fruit trees. Here is something that might be of assistance if you are interested: http://homesteadandgardens.com/soil-blog/wp-content/uploads/nitrogen-fixing-plants-chart.pdf  For your design, I like the convenience of the downspout placement and how that will serve as a water catchment system for your garden and fruit trees. I also like your idea of adding on to the landscape by including some more edibles. I am currently working on a project in my backyard; I am in zone 5b. I planted an apricot/plum hybrid known as Tlor Tisran. Thanks for sharing and please provide us with an update to this thread in the future. - Will

Thanks, Will.

Permaculture is something I've just started to learn about, and am just play'n it fast and loose with it for now....lol.  I like logical things, and permaculture is naturally logical it seems.

I actually started another thread about the same thing over in the water harvesting area, and it's got a bit more info if you care to see even more about a measly four trees.  https://permies.com/t/61816/attempt-harvest-water-Simple-bad#528005

Thanks for the chart on the Nitrogen fixers, I never even thought to look for something like that before.
I just mentioned in the other thread that I planned to plant sunflowers and peas/beans in the bed with the trees.  I'd heard somewhere that sunflowers sent down a deep tap root, which if I remember right is a good thing, and of course everyone mentions peas and beans as being good.   I'm happy to hear a suggestion that might be easier/better.

Here's a video of my backyard a couple of months ago.  It shows a bunch of crazy stuff I'm doing, and worse, my crazy idea to live in an rv, rent the main house out, and get paid to live on my own land.
I even have the strangest chicken coop/soil making factory/compost tea collecting thing you've ever seen!  It's kind of ghetto, but it's getting there.  It actually looks much better right now since I've been cleaning things up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKK1AyJzwE8

I'd love to see what you've got growing on in your yard if you care to share.
I'm a visual learner........
ugh to written words, lol.

I will try to update progress,
unless of course I kill the trees.......
in which case it's likely I'll just disappear.....

j/k

Thanks for sharing the video, Scott. Sorry my response is so delayed. I have been incredibly busy with work and I also had to track down a video of my father's backyard, which is where I am installing this aspiring edible food forest. I dig what you have going on over there and am inspired by your resourcefulness, especially considering you get to live in an RV while you rent out your house. I am working on purchasing a property within the next year and I have the intention of trying to get a duplex to rent out a flat. Hopefully I can get a decent size plot of land with it, so I can get some stuff growing on over there as well. Here is a video from a while back that shows all the baby one and two-year-old perennials and trees. Permaculture Project - Zone 5b - A Developing Vision for an Edible Food Forest The only recent video I have of the garden is covered in snow, so that isn't very interesting. In the spring of 2017, I will be installing tons of nitrogen-fixing plants, and I know I will be planting some beans as well, so we'll have to circle back and see how things are progressing when the warmer weather approaches. Until next next...

I forgot to mention, the gate with the snakes is a great fabrication. Excellent work! Impressive landscape design and arrangement of ideas

No worries about the reply time.  Nice video of the edible forest with the use the wood chips/mulch.  That is the recurring theme of every successful organic garden I've seen.  That's why I'm copying you guys, haha.  Nice job protecting all of the trees/shrubs with the wire.......which made me realize something over here.......there's a large population of jackrabbits and cottontails around here.  I'm so used to the backyard not having problems it hadn't occurred to me to think I'd have to fence the area off.  If you ever put the videos on youtube let me know, and I'll sub to watch your progress.  It looks like we started about the same time, so it'll be interesting to see how much better your results will be next to mine, lol.   I tried blueberries over here two summers ago, but I don't think I was giving them enough water and they just didn't like the full sun/extreme heat.  Enjoy yours, I'm jealous, but maybe I'll try again someday......
I just planted a ring of peas around each of the trees in the front yard not to mention a bunch more along the fences in the backyard.  I'll keep planting more in the front tree area, but I'd probably better get up a fence before too much green starts popping out.  I also planted a ton of onions, garlic, carrots, cabbage, swiss chard, spinach, kale, etc.. in the backyard's gardens.  
Good luck getting the land to play on, although you've got plenty to keep you busy either way.  It just makes sense these days to rent a piece of property if you can and a duplex is an awesome investment in my opinion.  Thanks for the compliments on the yard and gate.  That gate took me some time to make, but it was worth it.

Good luck with everything and thanks again for your video.  

Just a quick update on the trees growth so far.
As far as the deep water trough???  Who knows if it's helping, hurting, or doing nothing.  I don't know enough to notice anything different from the trees in the front yard compared to the back.  I got lucky this year with planting them.  It's been a wet, mild winter.  They budded out really early, and were able to make it through a few high twenty degree nights after that, and it's just been perfect for the last six weeks or so......
All in all, I'm very pleased with the growth of everything.  
Next in the works is a trellis to espalier them to, exactly like the one in the back I just put up.  It's just concrete wire mesh, I think 6" X 6" squares fastened to 1" X 10' square mild steel set in a bag of concrete.  The mesh is 5' tall, and I lifted it so it starts two feet off the ground and has a top height of seven feet from the ground.  The wire mesh is a pain to get flat, so it's wavy, but still totally acceptable to me as far as it looks.  There are 20' sections of 1/2" rebar running down the middle of the mesh to flatten out the panels some and give it some needed middle support.  It's also somewhat flexible if I shake it by hand, but once the trees (especially the one's between the posts) get fastened and form a single "unit" I can't imagine it not being completely acceptable for what it's intended to do.  I have leftovers so I'll do the same in the front, although I might try something different if I did it again?  Eventually 2' of 1/2" wire mesh will be placed below the panels to enclose the area so I can have a huge chicken run as well.  That's the plan for now anyway.........

The growth as of 3/30/2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKqxQodKFYQ&t=7s



and my garden is turning out pretty cool too!  I am sold on wood chips so far.  It'll be interesting to see if I start getting different pests because of them.
All I know is that I didn't see one worm when I dug out all that dirt in the front yard under the persimmons.  If I dig in a random spot now, I'll find them in a moist, "penetrable", medium with tons of sow bugs, roaches, etc.

https://youtu.be/h5e0KJ4qJa4

Hey Scott,

This is quite the update! Wow, you have really developed your site since I saw it last. I am amazed by all the new additions, especially all the fruit trees. The trellis you created is impressive. It looks like it will stand the test of time, and I like the idea of placing the verticals in bags of concrete to reinforce their strength. The massive addition of wood chips should help out greatly with decreasing the amount of water that you need to put into the garden by hand. I think I also noticed that you installed drip irrigation lines in some of the areas of your backyard, which should definitely help in easing the amount of time spent watering. I look forward to watching this project; it is evolving quickly! I am really amazed at how much you have growing there and how much of it looks like it is thriving. As for my project, I am starting to germinate seeds indoors now and get the site prepared for spring planting. Over the next few weeks, I will be documenting what we have going on and uploading a video or two. We still have quite a few yards of wood chips to move into the backyard to establish the annual garden, so much of my efforts will be getting that situated and monitoring the newly-germinated seedlings once they emerge. I also plan to start looking for local vendors of top soil to bring in a few yards to develop this year's annual garden. I will start by placing some on the berms that were covered last fall with straw and wood chips. I will also be inoculating many areas of the developing garden with mycorrhizal, so it will be exciting to see if the positive fungus development takes off. Several of the fruit trees have started budding out and are coming out of dormancy; the blueberries look like they are responding well to the hugelkultur, too, so I will take a video sometime soon once things start to look a little more presentable and green. Right now most things are just kicking off the snow and waking from their hibernation. Thanks for sharing this update; we look forward to seeing what you have in store for us next!

Good morning, Will.

Thanks for the kind words again!  I'm one of those anti-social hermit types that never has anyone over, so it's nice to get some input on what I've done.
Just a few people have seen it in person besides myself in the last year or two......or maybe three, haha.

All of the drip tubing was already there from spring 2015, which is when I first started this garden.  The two upper beds around the pool were made, the pool fence and gate were made that year, and I actually made all the framework for the pool that spring as well.  Last year was the lower fence and gate, and side garden next to the lower gate.  
and you're up to date on this year.  
I just keep chipping away at it, there really is no plan.  I stare out at it and daydream stuff up, and then I try to build the ideas into things.  
Sites like this and probably more so for me, youtube, are such an inspiration to see what's possible.  Thanks to all who post your good and bad projects, all of them I steal ideas from.  Bwahahaha
I just started paying attention to the permaculture aspect of gardening this year, and it's influencing ideas big time, but I am in no way "ruled" by its rules.  I will always do what I think makes the most sense for my application.

The wood chips seem amazing so far.  The difference between the areas covered vs. not are drastically different.  Exposed clay is like a concrete dead zone, covered by a foot of wood chips, that same clay is a nice moist life filled playground for bugs and I see the white strings that look like mycelium running all over the place when I dig in it.  I should make a video of a soil sample this year, just so I can see its progress over time.
The real test will be August.  No rain, humidity in the low teens, and hot.  It looks like it works in Phoenix, so it should work just as well here I hope.

I am so happy with the growth so far, the leafy greens are just growing so fast!  In the last few weeks I've ate more lettuce/kale than I've ever had in my entire life.  I've always been a fanatic for anything wrapped in a burrito shell, so I've started using the bigger leaves to wrap up rice and beans mixed with green onions, radish, and anything else I can harvest out of the garden.  It's not as good as a flour shell, but it's free, and I grew it!!!  It's amazing to me, and it's really motivating.  I'm curious to see how the kale does in the heat, I know the lettuce doesn't have much time left.
The best part, and Paul G. gets credit for this, is I can't grow too much.  It's just free chicken food/compost if I don't like it or eat it.  Absolutely everything goes right back to the pool if I don't eat it.  No waste.

Good luck with your site.  You have such a good knowledge of what you're doing it seems like your results will be fantastic.  So jealous of your blueberries!  I planted five or six a couple of years ago, but totally neglected them, and they all died their first summer here.  I did not water them nearly enough, (now that I have the wood chips........hmmmmm).  

Sign me up for your videos.  Post them here, or pm me, or let me know how to get them.  My brain is a big pile of wood chips trying to absorb this stuff..........but it's really dense so it takes a lot of time, pictures, and videos to sink in.

I've really been enjoying the "edible acres" guy on youtube lately also.  Smart, hard working, super mellow, and it's all about results.  
Good stuff, even though he hates the road in his front yard.  I think he might snap, and hurl a pitch fork at a passing truck one of these days......... Bwahahaha  I hope so anyway........
I bet he'd get a lot of views.


Now, hurry up sun,
I want to go outside and play!!!

(mainly because once July hits, I don't want to be outside anymore here!!!)

Have a good one, Will.
I look forward to your updates as well.

Josh.

Hey again,

Thanks for catching me up to speed on what took place prior to the videos I saw. I appreciate the kind words as well, but I am just a newbie reading up on different stuff, so please keep that in mind and cross reference with other sources before trying out anything I might recommend. I do learn a great deal from other growers by watching their videos. If you aren't already familiar with Jake Mace, I believe most of his videos are in Pheonix, Arizona. You should be able to adapt much of what you see him doing if there is something that catches your interest. He has a wealth of videos, so you might want to sift through the ones that you find worth watching. Here is just one that might be helpful: Jake Mace - Spring 2017 Garden Update Until next time, grow on.

P.S. I noticed you signed your post as "Josh". Should I be addressing you as Josh or Scott? Just want to make sure I know who I am writing back and forth with. Haha, have a good one.

Here is the most recent video of the blueberries. Budding Blueberries I am hoping these suckers bear some heavy fruit sets this year. Last year was my first year getting them in the ground, so I only got a couple.

Thanks for the video on the blueberries.  Short, to the point, and hopefully sweet in due time!
Good luck with them, but once again, you probably have the skills where luck won't really be the factor.

Jake Mace........I've watched tons of his gardening videos, but as of late he just seems to want to sell something.  I'm getting tired of them.
That being said many of my ideas came from watching what he did (in fact, he's the one who got me to watch the Back to Eden stuff because of the wood chips), and I'm sure he'll still be putting out good info., but I'm going to unsubscribe from his channel.

If I can call you Betty, you can call me Al........
bwahahaha

Yeah, it's Josh.  I use Scott as an alias for the internets, and because it's my favourite character on South Park.
I have the mind of a child, and I've given up on trying to make it mature.

Have a good one,
and if you really are curious about what's "growing" on over here......

here's the latest and greatest.

Yesterday afternoon this got done,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzdaSjGOnPs


and here's some trailer trash yard art I've put together.
It started turning into a fairy tale looking yard, which I like,
but I'm steering it into an anti-tale look.
It suits my personality better.

https://permies.com/t/64606/art/beginning-stages-garden-art#550845

Hi Josh/Scott,

Here is the most recent update of what I've got growing here in my piece of paradise. The rain this spring has been unusually frequent, so I'm excited to see what this looks like in two months.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0b3hkpu13x-7fzmrumfrezuvkuee/view?usp=drivesdk

Hi Will,

Curious to see it, but this is what pops up when I click on the link.



Sorry, the file you have requested does not exist.

Make sure that you have the correct URL and the file existed.

Hi Scott,

I used GoogleDrive on my phone and it must have defaulted to "link sharing off". https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3HkpU13x-7fZmRuMFREZUVKUEE This should work now. If it still doesn't, that gives me an excuse to start up a YouTube channel. Haha - Will

Hmm, today the link is getting me to a video player that has a photo of a tree protected by wire, but when I click on play, it just spins forever.
It could be my internet, or maybe the player is having issues.  I'll try again later.

Here are some pictures I took of the persimmons and apricot this morning.
I planted two rows of sunflowers in front, also some onions around the perimeter, and I even had a some peas growing up the tree trunks.

I'm not very impressed with all the work I did for these trees.  Maybe I over-pruned them when I started the espalier, I'm not sure, but of the twenty trees these four are doing the worst.
There are other factors such as them having been planted a few months after the other trees, and being exposed to high winds that the other trees are protected from.
The fuyu has a few fruits growing on it.  The others are barely hanging on it seems, and I dare not prune any new growth, regardless of where it's coming from.
Hopefully they pull through......but considering it'll be over 105 most of the next few months, I'm not sure what to expect.  Hopefully the sunflowers will protect them from the sun and wind.

This the Hachiya persimmon.  Some new growth at the bottom, but not much else.

Here is the Fuyu persimmon, the best out of the three.

Here is the Chocolate persimmon.  Meh.......

Here is the Mormon apricot/ Chinese apricot.

Out of the four apricot trees, this one is doing the worst.  The other three are in the backyard protected by the wall.

Thanks for the updates, Scott. It is good to know the majority of the fruit trees are doing well. It is unfortunate that the ones in the front, even with the water diverted toward their root systems, are not thriving. I wish I had more extensive knowledge of fruit trees, especially ones acclimated to your hardiness zone, but I do not. For what it is worth, my apricot/plumb hybrid did not survive our pre-mature spring here in Wisconsin. We had an early onset of warm weather that thawed the snow for a couple weeks; the trees started to bud. Shortly after that, the weather changed gears and reverted back to winter with freezing temperatures. The apricot/plumb buds that had turned into leaves then died, and now that spring is officially underway, there has been no new growth. I am going to wait another week or two to see if any growth emerges, and if not, I will need to replace that fruit tree. Worst case scenario, you can always do that with yours in the front if need be. If you haven't already, you might want to speak with your local arborist or nursery to see what they recommend for the conditions in your front yard. They might know of some particularly resilient fruit trees that could do well in spite of the hostile conditions your front yard poses. On the bright side, your backyard will be abundant!

I managed to kill all three persimmon (just sawed the last stump down last month).  Don't know if it was lack of water, too much salt (I had a soil test down, and my soil is too salty), or ???  
The mormon apricot is still holding on, but its lower trunk a few inches from the soil level has 3/4 of its cambian layer gone, so maybe it won't make it, although it actually has grown a lot and looks decent right this minute.

Just an update.  Going over my old posts, and figured I should say how it went.  

I did plant two pomegranate from clippings/cutting off other pom's I have in the yard this year where the middle two persimmon were so hopefully they'll do better.