Jadam -aerobic vs anaerobic and the right bacteria

I am reading a bit about YADAM, the Korean style organic system. He insists that there is no need for brewing aerobic bacteria that anaerobic is just fine and that more oxygen means nutrient loss. He does not back up this claim with science but with the fact that Korean farmers did that for millennia. I think that Asian farming systems are a good source and interesting, but this contradicts all I read here.
Second, he claims that forest leaf mould has all the bacteria needed for brewing, for me it's strange since a forest grows trees and what most of us want to grow are vegetables (maybe a bit of beans and grain and fruit trees). Then if I go to the forest here, I find harsh bush with spiky, dry leaves, little shade (unless I go down in the gullys) and no deciduous trees, when I look at the landscape I can't believe that the bacteria found would help to grow whimpy sappy veggies.
He does not advocate a compost either because it is too much work (right!) and if at all he uses a heap one by one meter which is not turned.
All in all the Yatam system seems to rely more on fermenting than on air. He claims too, that if something smells bad it is OK that this is not a sign of harmfull bacteria.

Are you reading about it via google searches, or do you mean you are reading the "JADAM Organic Farming" book? I am in the middle of reading the book.

I'm glad you brought this topic up, as it reminds of a topic from a few months ago. I'm pretty sure I saw an answer from Bryant in a different topic about a similar subject, but I forgot to save it's location.
From the book though: "In European Cooking contests, 60% of the points are awarded based on how little nutrition is lost in cooking". "sunlight, heat and air destroy vitamins and amino acids". So I think that is part of the anaerobic focus, but he also focuses on it from a simplistic perspective aswell.

I can recall reading in JADAM, that the more biodiversity there is among micro-organisms, the less problems that are likely to occur in soil - a system that self-balances. The less diversity there is, the more chance there is for certain micro-organisms to grow unchecked and cause problems in the soil. From the book: "1 gram of leaf mold contains 1 million different species of Micro-Organisms. Micro-organism excrete nutrients."

Angelika Maier wrote: Second, he claims that forest leaf mould has all the bacteria needed for brewing, for me it's strange since a forest grows trees and what most of us want to grow are vegetables

There are references to daikon radishes/garlic/leek farms (etc) all using JADAM techniques, so it doesn't seem to be limited to benefiting only trees. A forest is where the most biodiversity will be, and the author talks about:
"Three tenets of Soil Management:
1. MO in the field should match the composition of the lead mold.
2. Organic matter should be abundant in your soil like where the leaf mold in the mountains comes from. (aka a fertile forest)
3. Minerals should be diverse like leaf mold."

The reasoning for that focuses along the central theme of JADAM: that the more biodiversity there is, the less diseases there will be in the soil and the healthier the plants will be - whether they be a tree, shrub or vegetable.

Angelika Maier wrote: He claims too, that if something smells bad it is OK that this is not a sign of harmfull bacteria.

I believe it's actually something along the lines of "Not everything that is good smells like a rose". I say this because the author doesn't seem to believe in "harmful bacteria", but rather that everything serves a function. Example: The author talked about how there is always bacteria that causes Canker in the soil, it's only when it's population gets too big that it becomes a problem for plants.  

Hopefully someone can reply with some in-depth info as I am mostly just parroting. I plan to try a few JADAM techniques this summer, so I'll be sure to record my results :)

Yes, it's about the book.
My thought on the leaf mould was that the bacteria needed for growing vegetables might not be the ones found in leaf mould.
There's something about tradition, probably his recipes work, but he does not back any of his claims, it's written rather simplistic.

Angelika Maier wrote:I am reading a bit about YADAM, the Korean style organic system. He insists that there is no need for brewing aerobic bacteria that anaerobic is just fine and that more oxygen means nutrient loss. He does not back up this claim with science but with the fact that Korean farmers did that for millennia. I think that Asian farming systems are a good source and interesting, but this contradicts all I read here.
Second, he claims that forest leaf mould has all the bacteria needed for brewing, for me it's strange since a forest grows trees and what most of us want to grow are vegetables (maybe a bit of beans and grain and fruit trees). Then if I go to the forest here, I find harsh bush with spiky, dry leaves, little shade (unless I go down in the gullys) and no deciduous trees, when I look at the landscape I can't believe that the bacteria found would help to grow whimpy sappy veggies.
He does not advocate a compost either because it is too much work (right!) and if at all he uses a heap one by one meter which is not turned.
All in all the Yatam system seems to rely more on fermenting than on air. He claims too, that if something smells bad it is OK that this is not a sign of harmfull bacteria.

I'll try to clarify the JADAM or KNF method, it can be rather confusing because they fail to mention their fermentation techniques do involve O2 exchange at the surface of the ferment.
Why they do this, I don't know but since they mention the cover needs to be air permeable, O2 is exchanged, other wise they would specify using an air lock just like you do when fermenting beer or other alcohol products.
When you get into reading how to create these preparations, it becomes evident that we aren't looking at anaerobic setups. This means that any one saying they are, doesn't really understand what they are trying to convey to others, resulting in misconception.

The whole premise of JADAM or KNF is indigenous microbes, which means those microbes that are already present in nature in a particular area of land or part of the world.
This is sound thinking, those are the organisms those indigenous plants have adjusted their processes to use as helpers.
The system is also adamant about; not breeding molds in a ferment when making preparations, keeping each batch separate until time to use in a blend of preparations (much like all the other "natural methods").
All the preparations are indeed aerated at time of use (poured into a container for spraying or then poured over the soil directly), so any claim of anaerobic solutions would seem to be false.  
O2 has been proven to increase, not decrease available nutrients, plus as I have already mentioned the methods of fermenting the solutions (preparations) is not really anaerobic but rather surface exchange fermentation, thus the statement "that anaerobic is just fine and that more oxygen means nutrient loss" must be false.

We know through experimentation that bad smells in compost indicates bad bacteria and or molds at work.
In fermentation you can not make the same assumption, but the odors come from the organic material breaking down and giving off gasses which contain ammonium and other noxious compounds.
So his statement about smelling bad doesn't mean harmful bacteria are present is true, but perhaps a bit misleading since it isn't a complete statement of what is happening.

The people of Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc. have, for at least 1000 years, developed and used fermenting as both a method of preservation of foods and the creation of nutrient rich amendments for their soils.
It would seem that when they started raising rice as the main staple crop, the whole fermenting thing began in earnest so they could have food all year long.
This is indicated by how many of their fermented food preparations include rice.
At the same time they began putting the "left overs" back into the soil and subsequently discovered that this actually made the plants grow better and larger as well as stopping "weeds".
They also noticed that the foods they were growing tasted better (which correlates to foods with higher nutritional value).

Redhawk

I consider the JADAM methods as just another way to increase the soil organism diversity to as close to optimal as possible.

I am trying combinations of methods to see if I can not only increase the numbers of microorganisms but also the diversity of both bacteria and fungi.  

A problem with the book is that it is terribly written, no very clear, repetitive and sometimes contradictive. That may be because of the translation.
Then it is Korean natural farming. I live in Australia, where indigenous people never did agriculture and for a good reason. Why should Aussie microbes which grow beautiful gum trees and banksias be good for growing cabbages and tomatoes? Wouldn't you need cabbage or tomato bacteria? I mean the bacteria needed to grow these spiny dryish species be good to grow our sappy whimpy vegetables?
The other thing is the reasoning behind not to aerate is basically to save a piece of equipment. So if I invest, say $50 for that and get great results why shouldn't I? Or do these ferments another thing than the bacterial brews? Maybe like Bryant said they bring a bigger variety of critters in than the aerated compost brews??
Is his reasoning stubbornness or is there science behind it?

hau Angelika, in Australia the bacteria are there, they just don't grow so well in the atmospheric conditions of the country, especially the outback.

If we want to grow vegetables and fruit trees in arid lands where these do not do particularly well, then we must help nature along towards the goals we have in mind, whether or not this is advisable is a whole different thing.
Much of the troubles of earth come from humans creating the conditions they want, where they want them. Then there is the fascination with concrete and asphalt, which also changes weather patterns to a certain extent, along with stopping water inflow to the soil.

I think that on an individual level, this is not something that would disrupt the functions of our planet (the gardening not paving, etc.).
So if we need to activate the microbiology of the soil so the bacteria and fungi we want to grow do so, then all we are really doing is adding to the diversity that is already in place.
Of course there are areas that doing this would disrupt the nature of the land too much, places like swamps and natural wet lands do not need to be changed on large scales, that ruins the natural water filtration system of the planet, which results in mass pollution of the water humans and other animals need to survive.

I always do the science first then I draw my conclusions and I also look at the big picture since that has to be considered just as much as the individual picture, perhaps even more.
I also promote a multi directional approach to land improvement for the purpose of growing food, the "Modern Method" has limited its approach to a single approach and the issues this causes are becoming better known every day.
Several years ago I did some experiments with anaerobic composting and found that once I brought these finished compost back into an aerobic state, there were good benefits to the soil microbiology overall.
I've done a few of these methods and they all seem to be worthwhile in the overall soil health goals.
I did find that conversion to aerobic after the completion of the anaerobic state did improve the results and microorganism counts were higher in good to bad ratios.
So from those results I stopped trials of purely anaerobic composts in the soil beds where I had been testing the methods (bokashi and Jadam)

Compost teas can be created by several methods; static, stirred, aerated, aerated and stirred, and the latest method is the vortex.
I don't use just one type of tea, if find that there are uses for all the different tea methods and I try to use the right ones for what I would like to add to my soil.

I've been following your progression of posts here and I believe you will have great success because you ask the questions and trial what makes sense to you, that is the trait of a great gardener/farmer.

Redhawk

thanks! Unfortunately, I am not methodical and terribly unscientific, otherwise, I would treat two beds in a different manner and write up what I did. My partner believes no matter what science says that a vortex brewer would be advantageous, at least there is no filthy bubble stone to clean. So you believe it is not that important where you source your bacteria from diversity is the key. So there is nothing like gum tree loving bacteria and tomato loving bacteria and so on?

If you aren't already setup for brewing compost teas then by all means go with a vortex brewer the advantages are worth it.

Bacteria are everywhere, every time you breathe in air you are breathing in bacteria, we can not escape them unless we live in a clean room.
Diversity is key because the plants will call upon those bacteria they need to process minerals for them, without a large number of different bacteria present in our growing medium (soil), we can not be sure our plants have access to the ones they need.
Yes there are specific strains that each plant needs, we just don't have all the research done to know which plants need which bacteria strains, there will be many different strains for each plant since it is likely that each strain processes specific minerals and other nutrients.
Bacteria produce enzymes which are what break out the specific minerals and nutrients for the bacterium to eat, then they excrete wastes products and excesses of their nutrients are left around them for later food use, these are what the plants take advantage of for their own use as food.

If we could, with certainty, produce all the exact strains any particular plant needs for full nutrition, we would have the products that all the farming world would benefit from purchasing, including land farms, water farms(hydroponic) and air farms (hydromisting farms where the roots are periodically wetted with nutrient solutions but it then drains away so the roots can take in oxygen).
This is currently in the on going research stage so that in the future we will have a compendium of which bacteria for which plants.
Some of the specific bacteria have already been identified but not enough of this work is completed to be certain that we can provide a complete bacterial product for any plant.

The most wonderful (to me) thing about gardening is that we can try everything and then select what works best for our plants in our soil at our location, same goes for building the best soil.
As an example of how close differences can be, my neighbor (350 feet away) has different soil and plant needs than my gardens.

Redhawk

Angelika Maier wrote:Why should Aussie microbes which grow beautiful gum trees and banksias be good for growing cabbages and tomatoes?

Hi Angelika,

I have read many stories of how great the Australian farming was in the early days, massive wheat yields for the first decade or so, etc. Also that many of the common trees that are scrubby now were a lot better then, an example of 'black wattle' (which could have been any one of a number of Acacia species) commonly growing 4 foot diameters and 50 foot straight trunks. These trees can't be found now. Possibly this is because the good genetic trees were selected for timber utilisation (this happened in NZ with our puriri tree, originally a beautiful tall forest tree all the good ones were removed and we now see it as a multistemmed tree), but possibly it was because of soil degradation from inappropriate European-style farming techniques being imported to Australia.

I'm trying to say don't assume that your local forest microbial community is inadequate based entirely on what you see now. Alternatively, find a patch of  dense rainforest and borrow some of its leaf mould and see if there is any difference in results.  

the idea behind jadam is to help farmers get away from the commodification of fertilizers

the proof is in the agricultural success reflected in profits and costs invested.

in my research listening to several regenerative agriculture podcasts and reading a lot of peer involved feeds, where many scientists and data savvy people chime in... nature is never just anaerobic or aerobic. these phases changes thru out the seasons, like wet and dry. there are times soil is competely water logged in the rain, anaerobic. and other times the soil more dry during the summer or less rainy months/ aerobic. so again everything has their purpose.

jadam encourages soil biologic diversity, thru low cost means. which is why gathering leaf mold is encouraged. that biology is comprised of diverse decomposers, which help make nutrients available and in an ideal circumstance help the diversity so less imbalances arise from any one less favorable microbe taking over.

one of the main inputs of jadam is microbial solution, where you would brew/culture anaerobically leafmold with the soil you are using and even bits of the type of crop you are growing, to focus the diversity in favor of your growing media and crop... feeding it merely sea salt and starch such as cooked potatoes...

if you want to use compost and or compost tea, that's fine. granted its a translation from korean, so its easy to miss certain nuances. but the idea is to recommend something practical, like you don't need to make compost or buy expensive brewers.

i've done both, used air brewed compost teas, and brewed anaerobic compost teas. in my experience I would favor the Jadam solutions, due to accessability, and from the success its had on my cash crops as well as my own food garden.

following this experience and research, i've come to favor compost extracts which is just mixing quality and compost and water. you can use a brewer or do it by hand, aka very accessible... and if i do make a tea in contrast to compost extract, i would use very little food.

what i'm saying is everyone can have as diverse a toolkit as they like, but its important to focus on whats practical and available to you.
now I choose both, jadam and soilfoodweb style compost extracts. I don't think I need more than that, besides good organic matter and mulch

My approach to any new area of knowledge is to test it. If it works, it works. Regardless of whether the”science” behind it is correct. I’m not going to wait for a dozen peer-reviewed controlled experiments to prove it. I tried it, using my own “forest” of orange trees leaf mold, and my own weeds, etc. The difference it made to my veggies and my fruit trees is like night and day. I now realize that my forest garden used to survive, and now it thrives.