Lyme Disease

I am comfortable with this forum so I want to bring up this topic here.

I got lyme a couple years ago but cured it with antibiotics quick enough that I got no bad symptoms. But people say again and again, it doesn't really go away. I was at the northeast permie convergence and they recommended some herbal remedies to keep the numbers low.

I think somebody said japanese knotweed root, and something else too.

Could someone point me in the direction of a trusted online herb dealer they know? and also, from whom could I find out how much to take?

Thank you fellow permies.. =)

Hello,
I recommend Stephen Buhner's book, Healing Lyme. (He may be online too.)

He is a great herbologist - I healed myself of Lyme following his herbal protcol. In the back of the book he has much scientific documentation.

good luck,
ellen

I'm a lucky camper to have never gotten lyme disease (as I've been bit by countless ticks..) How severe are your symptoms these days? My uncle is a forester,and had lyme as well, and was in pain til he was able to knock it out months later...
Curious to know.. Peace with you -

      Grazing with guinea fowl and chickens vastly reduces the number of ticks around the farm. They brush against the grass to trigger the ticks jumping response. My brother has had lyme for 10 years and at times it has been debilitating.

Living wind,
not sure if yr question is to me or to Mr. chuck.
I've been symptom free for 5 years.
Glad yr uncle is rid of it.

ellen

  I just happened upon this site:

  http://www.ladybarbara.net/

  She's been working with teasel for Lyme. You may find it interesting.

good luck!

Ah Lyme, the bane of my existence. I have heard estimates that as many as 1 out of 4 Americans may be carrying Lyme and it's co-infections asymptomatically. Apparently it's a bit more virulent than first believed and transferred a lot of ways besides the normal deer tick vector.

I am trying the teasel root tincture to see what results I can get from that. In the past I have used the vitamin C and Salt protocol and gotten limited success with that. I will pass on any results positive or negative.

I spent lots of time in the woods this summer, got a least 4 tick bites and now I think I may have Lyme Disease. I'm waiting for the results of a blood test. Now I'm wondering if I should wait to try herbal remedies till after I get the results back from the test, wait till after I do anti-biotics, or get started ASAP.

Cj Verde wrote:I spent lots of time in the woods this summer, got a least 4 tick bites and now I think I may have Lyme Disease. I'm waiting for the results of a blood test. Now I'm wondering if I should wait to try herbal remedies till after I get the results back from the test, wait till after I do anti-biotics, or get started ASAP.

My husband and I both tested positive for tick fever last summer, I went in for blood work because I had a bullseye rash that almost always means lymes. I've since learned that the tests aren't always definitive. We did what the doctor prescribed and also a tincture of teasel and japanese knotweed that an herbalist friend gave us. She also loaned us 'Healing Lyme' by Stephen Buhner http://www.buhnerhealinglyme.com/ and that book convinced us to go for a more long term herbal treatment. He thinks that usually you will have lymes and another of the tick diseases at the same time and they can go unrecognized for a long time with very subtle symptoms.
We are both still taking astragalus and cats claw. Andrographis was one of the others recommended but I couldn't find it as readily nor could I find the teasel/j. knotweed tincture.
I didn't take tick diseases very seriously and just thought of ticks as more of an annoyance. Now I am determined to build up my immune system because I know that I can't avoid getting a tick bite.
A web site called 'Healing Well' http://www.healingwell.com/ was also recommended. I haven't spent much time there though.
Now, I have to ask...only FOUR tick bites ALL summer??? Our yard is pretty tick free because we had guineas for awhile and we no longer have a dog, but any summer time woods walk guarantees many ticks that we are just in the habit of cleaning off of our clothes and us with masking tape and then a shower.

Cj : Even though It is strikingly obvious Doctors often fail to mention that they are testing for the anti body and not the Bacterium itself!
So If you test positive that only means you have had an exposure to it. And at the point you get a positive test, (that you have produced -
anti bodies ) All future tests will almost certainly be positive! I see Guinea Fowl in my future ! For the Crafts Big AL

allen lumley wrote:Cj : Even though It is strikingly obvious Doctors often fail to mention that they are testing for the anti body and not the Bacterium itself!
So If you test positive that only means you have had an exposure to it. And at the point you get a positive test, (that you have produced -
anti bodies ) All future tests will almost certainly be positive! I see Guinea Fowl in my future ! For the Crafts Big AL

Our doctor told us that we both showed having HAD tick fever in the past and that it also showed ACTIVE at the time of the blood work. I don't really understand how, but they could tell the difference between having had it and currently having it...........

Judith B. : Thanks for pointing that out, I was not trying to write the definitive book on the subject But, your immune system creates anti
bodies

over a very long time your antibody levels fall the Doc.s Titrate the levels and say his/her levels are Soooo high they most have a current
infection.

Or -you barely have any, you had an exposure a looonng time ago ! It can be a bit of a guess in the middle ranges

You need a while to build up a production of anti bodies to the disease, my doctor knows I could come home from a weekend camping trip,
find a tick and not know how long the tick had been on me ! He is willing to give me a once yearly script for an antibiotic so that I can take
one pill immediately after the tick removal, instead of ether a trip to the E. R. or waiting two weeks to get in too see him, So I take the pill
and call and they fit me in where they can

Not all doctors are willing to hand out scripts so freely ! Hope that was a little clearer ! Don't be the Marshmallow ! Big AL !

Judith Browning wrote:
Now, I have to ask...only FOUR tick bites ALL summer???

4 times I've had to remove ticks that were attached. This is a record! I actually can't remember having to remove a tick on myself though I did have a bulls eye rash maybe 20 years ago. I did ask about anti-bodies v active infection and the doctor said they could tell the difference, I think.

allen lumley wrote:
Not all doctors are willing to hand out scripts so freely !

I do wonder if I should've just asked for a script since time is of the essence with this disease.

My husband has been wondering if he has it too but the doctor he saw was unwilling to get him tested! I think it's because his appt was for an ear infection and not just the possibility of Lyme. She even suggested waiting to see what the results of my test are. How could that have any bearing on him is beyond me but he does seem to piss off medical personnel for some unknown reason! He goes to the doctor very infrequently & last year was his first physical in a decade.

allen lumley wrote:I see Guinea Fowl in my future !

Me too, all though it's tough to imagine adding more animals with my energy this low.

Cj Verde wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:
Now, I have to ask...only FOUR tick bites ALL summer???

4 times I've had to remove ticks that were attached. This is a record! I actually can't remember having to remove a tick on myself though I did have a bulls eye rash maybe 20 years ago. I did ask about anti-bodies v active infection and the doctor said they could tell the difference, I think.

We are always amazed at how the professionals say to carefully remove a tick. I would have been hours at certain times of the year, in the past, removing ticks was an every day occurrence and I just pulled it off and killed it with my fingernail......and then pulled off the next one, etc. I am not recommending that but I think in the end MAYBE we built up some immunity. Even when we tested positive the doctor kept asking if we had any symptoms and we had none of the extreme ones...I think the ones we had could be easily attributed to other things. I can definitely tell that I have way less joint pain now after more than a year of cats claw and astragalus. So many of the symptoms of many tick diseases are subtle...it is only when you put them all together that they may indicate a tick disease........especially if you have been bitten. There is some thought that those disease can be passed on through other means....saliva for example...not just through tick bites. It is another case where the CDC would like us to stay calm and not panic so they are only giving out a portion of the available information.

Judith Browning wrote:So many of the symptoms of many tick diseases are subtle...it is only when you put them all together that they may indicate a tick disease........especially if you have been bitten.

In hindsight I think the first symptoms were unwarranted muscle fatigue. Then neck stiffness. Then, perhaps, stomach bug symptoms which is really rare for me. Then extreme fatigue. Add that to tick bites and it seems like a good guess but it could be signs of aging too. I do worry about other tick born diseases and they only checked for lyme.

I do now totally get why they don't trial drugs on women too often. With all the peri-menapausal symptoms its tricky to know what's going on! Have I had a fever? Who knows?

Cj Verde wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:So many of the symptoms of many tick diseases are subtle...it is only when you put them all together that they may indicate a tick disease........especially if you have been bitten.

In hindsight I think the first symptoms were unwarranted muscle fatigue. Then neck stiffness. Then, perhaps, stomach bug symptoms which is really rare for me. Then extreme fatigue. Add that to tick bites and it seems like a good guess but it could be signs of aging too. I do worry about other tick born diseases and they only checked for lyme.

I do now totally get why they don't trial drugs on women too often. With all the peri-menapausal symptoms its tricky to know what's going on! Have I had a fever? Who knows?

I guess if it were me I would assume I had a tick disease or two.....I think most of us are healthy enough that we might not get full blown symptoms and I just keep hearing how it is more widespread than we think...and connected to many other chronic diseases like MS and Alzheimers. and even though I think that is believable, I don't feel in a panic, I just think what I need to do is work on as healthy an immune system as possible.
The subtle symptoms that we only noted after they were gone...were tiredness and muscle pain. neck stiffness too, but I thought that was the old thing about women carrying their tension in their neck I think that is why tick diseases are misdiagnosed so often unless there is blood work.....each individual symptom could be something else. Did your doctor suggest blood work or did you have to push for it?

Judith Browning wrote:Did your doctor suggest blood work or did you have to push for it?

The sole reason for the appt was to check for Lyme. The symptoms plus the fact that I said I had been bit 4x and had spent time in the woods was enough to justify my request. I think they're getting a lot of requests and push back from insurance - possibly.

She also said the last 5 years have seen an increase in infections (probably due to climate change).

So, would you recommend starting up some herbal treatments while I wait for the results? I'll check out the Healing Lyme link (buhnerhealinglyme.com)

So, would you recommend starting up some herbal treatments while I wait for the results? I'll check out the Healing Lyme link (buhnerhealinglyme.com)

I'm kind of scared of the word 'recommend' We did the round of doctor stuff first...10 days....some recommend a much longer initial treatment. Then we used teasel/j. knotweed tincture for several weeks. We both noticed the 'die off' symptom of feeling worse briefly at the end of both of those treatments. I can't remember if we then overlapped with the astragalus and cats claw or not...they were both as gradually increasing doses. Now, more than a year later, I try to cut back on the cats claw and start feeling fatigued again.........I don't know though, it is that subtle symptom thing all over again. I think I am much better and some things are....I guess I need to have another blood test to know for sure, maybe.
I know it is not a good thing to take the same herb over long periods of time...we did switch out with andrographis for awhile, but astragalus is supposed to be one herb that works better over time.

here is my disclaimer............I am not a herbalist and what I can afford plays a big part in my decisions.
I think I would have continued the tincture if we could have found more...it was a homemade one and we could never relocate the herbalist who gave it to our friend the herbalist who had full blown tick fever symptoms..
My daughter in law had been tired an achy and after a period of a few weeks started having kidney failure this last year and after much fruitless testing, we all insisted she get tested for tick fever and sure enough she had it. as had her dogs who had been treated over the year before that.

Thank you for sharing these experiences. I have been doing research on closing disease vectors such as like ticks with environmental design. This is why I recently recently wrote a thread supporting the idea of increasing fire ant populations. Ticks are some of the worse disease vector insects second to mosquitos only by numbers, but first in disease variety. That is why I am trying to develop a multi-tier tick predator strategy specifically for the south-eastern United States. To name a list of tick borne diseases:

Lyme disease
Babesiosis
Encephalitis
Heartland virus disease
Rickettsial diseases
Typhus
Boutonneuse fever
Rocky Mountain spotted fever
African tick bite fever

Amedean Messan wrote:Thank you for sharing these experiences. I have been doing research on closing disease vectors such as like ticks with environmental design. This is why I recently recently wrote a thread supporting the idea of increasing fire ant populations. Ticks are some of the worse disease vector insects second to mosquitos only by numbers, but first in disease variety. That is why I am trying to develop a multi-tier tick predator strategy specifically for the south-eastern United States. To name a list of tick borne diseases:

Lyme disease
Babesiosis
Encephalitis
Heartland virus disease
Rickettsial diseases
Typhus
Boutonneuse fever
Rocky Mountain spotted fever
African tick bite fever

I've been following your thread with interest, Amedean....soon we will be finding out if it really works as fire ants are slowly making their way here
I think most of your list of diseases that can be spread by ticks are very rare...but a scarey list non the less!
Rather than import more predators, although we really loved our guinea while they lasted, I think I want to stay focused on my health and how to better withstand one of their diseases. I think a healthy wildlife population must play a part also...I am wondering if areas where deer are more crowded, etc makes some difference....if more of them carry the disease? For several folks that we know, NOT having a dog has made all of the difference in reducing the tick population in their immediate outdoor living area.

Judith Browning wrote:
Rather than import more predators, although we really loved our guinea while they lasted, I think I want to stay focused on my health and how to better withstand one of their diseases. I think a healthy wildlife population must play a part also...I am wondering if areas where deer are more crowded, etc makes some difference....if more of them carry the disease? For several folks that we know, NOT having a dog has made all of the difference in reducing the tick population in their immediate outdoor living area.

There's actually a lot to parse out there!

It does seem like the more deer there are the more ticks.
Were you referring to the guineas as predators (of ticks) or predators which eat guineas? That leads right into the dog/tick correlation!

My dogs have had tons of ticks this year but I'm quite sure my ticks are not from them but from the woods. My LGDs would help keep guineas alive so I think it would net out to less ticks. Also, we do have some deer on the property but not usually close to the house. One of the dogs tends to escort them off the property.

Were you referring to the guineas as predators (of ticks) or predators which eat guineas? That leads right into the dog/tick correlation!

I was meaning the guineas as predators of ticks...I think they are well worth having if you have dogs that will protect them in the day time...ours were easy to train to come in to roost at dusk...they are less smart than chickens though. We just had no way to protect them while they free ranged during the day. One just sat there when a dog walked through the yard and picked it up..............we thought they would at least have some protective instinct to fly up in a tree...I guess it has been bred out?

Our neighbor's guinea tend to try to attack my truck. Not sure how many he started with but he was down to 3 for a while but I just noticed a bunch of new younger ones. Ideally I'll buy a few from him. Now or spring - not sure.

My symptoms seem to ebb & flow. Not sure if that's normal or not.

My symptoms seem to ebb & flow. Not sure if that's normal or not.

that is normal...symptoms can go away for years and then come back...at least that is my understanding and maybe my experience...I just wasn't aware of what was going on for a long time.

Seems like one good day/one bad day.

Luckily this is a good day because my nursing LGD seemed to have stopped nursing so I had to run her to the vet (she had a temp). She nursed after her she got some meds into her but I decided to move the puppies into the kids bathroom because it's going into the 30s tonight and I'm working 3-11:30 so I can't check up on her. Stressful.

Cj Verde wrote:Seems like one good day/one bad day.

Luckily this is a good day because my nursing LGD seemed to have stopped nursing so I had to run her to the vet (she had a temp). She nursed after her she got some meds into her but I decided to move the puppies into the kids bathroom because it's going into the 30s tonight and I'm working 3-11:30 so I can't check up on her. Stressful.

when are your test results due? My husband is remembering that the doctor went ahead and began treatment for us the day we had the blood drawn just in case.............and the test results took a week I think.
and , yeah, a good day and then a bad day ....sometimes I felt really good one day and then felt like I was having to rest up the next.....I think all tick fever. A lot of folks have said that they get a false negative for Lymes even though they have those symptoms but show positive for tick fever. Have your dogs been tested?

Dogs haven't been tested but I do need to run Sugar back to the vet soon because she's due for a bunch of shots - including being over due for Lyme.

Speaking of sugar.... did you adjust your diet at all? I do try to eat low carb /paleo in general and it seems like an extra good idea because Lyme seems to effect inflammation type problems. I am getting serious sugar cravings due to the low energy though.

Speaking of sugar.... did you adjust your diet at all? I do try to eat low carb /paleo in general and it seems like an extra good idea because Lyme seems to effect inflammation type problems. I am getting serious sugar cravings due to the low energy though.

I feel my best when I stay away from sugar and wheat both and I suppose low carb in general. I did too much reading a year ago about this and I think I remember that something said it was good to stick with an anti inflammatory diet....but I think that is good no matter what your health.
I am way out of whack now because we have a lot of virgo birthdays starting in august and running into september and this year I caved in to the cake and homemade ice cream and now persimmons are an everyday treat and I can't resist and my sugar craving is back. I know that can cause fatigue also. This conversation may help me get my act together and get back on track

Is anyone familiar with this company...Green Dragon Botanicals? http://greendragonbotanicals.com/products/lyme-protocols/lb-core-protocol.html
They have herb blends following Stephen Buhner's recommendations for Lymes.

I have seen the company mentioned on this facebook group for people using Stephen's herbal protocol:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1441091676154216/

I think the mention is positive, but I'm not sure.

Judith Browning wrote:Is anyone familiar with this company...Green Dragon Botanicals? http://greendragonbotanicals.com/products/lyme-protocols/lb-core-protocol.html
They have herb blends following Stephen Buhner's recommendations for Lymes.

Could someone take a peek at the FB page and report back? It's a closed group and I took a quick look using my daughters account but I can't join the group.

Cj Verde wrote:Could someone take a peek at the FB page and report back? It's a closed group and I took a quick look using my daughters account but I can't join the group.

I clicked on 'join' and now it says 'pending' so I think I'll probably get an email eventually.
Have you found out your test results yet?

No.
I called Thursday and they said no results yet - don't call, we'll call you when we hear.

I ran out of energy so I couldn't cut down trees for bolts but I was some how able to wake up last night every time a puppy whined so I could move them to the poopy area. Hopefully I'll have their area set up in my bedroom & they'll be able to move to the proper area when nature calls. It's neat that they want to do that. I think I can survive the few days of training it'll take!

Cj Verde wrote:Could someone take a peek at the FB page and report back? It's a closed group and I took a quick look using my daughters account but I can't join the group.

I got 'accepted' to join their fb group...easy to do after clicking 'join' it took a couple hours to get something back. It looks interesting but I think you might find information that is easier to search at the 'healing well' web site or Stephen Buhner's own site. I did catch that Buhner doesn't recommend andrographis any more, which is great because it was hard to find and only an annual to grow. Great flowers though.

Judith Browning wrote:
I got 'accepted' to join their fb group...easy to do after clicking 'join' it took a couple hours to get something back.

So did they say anything about Green Dragon Botanicals?

Cj Verde wrote:

Judith Browning wrote:
I got 'accepted' to join their fb group...easy to do after clicking 'join' it took a couple hours to get something back.

So did they say anything about Green Dragon Botanicals?

I didn't have time to browse..I only read a bit of the first page and there was nothing there about green dragon botanicals.
I'll look more later...I don't suppose there is some way to search on fb? The only forums I read are here at permies and I am only on fb for pictures of the grandkids.......not a lot of computer patience even though it seems like I am on it a lot.

I have seen the company mentioned on this facebook group for people using Stephen's herbal protocol:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1441091676154216/

I think the mention is positive, but I'm not sure.

thanks, Ellen....I am trying to scan the entries of that fb group...it does look like a lot of good information but hard to sort without reading so much...I saw your post ... it looks like it is a very active group. How far back do you suppose the mention of Green Dragon Botanicals might be?

Hi,
I don't think fb has a search function. (if it does, I've never found it.)

I'll just go on and ask about Green Dragon Botanicals, or anyone who has joined the fb group can (but I know many people do not want to be on fb),
and I'll report back.

It is an active group and very helpful.

best,
ellen

Judith Browning wrote:

I have seen the company mentioned on this facebook group for people using Stephen's herbal protocol:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1441091676154216/

I think the mention is positive, but I'm not sure.

thanks, Ellen....I am trying to scan the entries of that fb group...it does look like a lot of good information but hard to sort without reading so much...I saw your post ... it looks like it is a very active group. How far back do you suppose the mention of Green Dragon Botanicals might be?