I'm Right and You're an Idiot by James Hoggan

Terry Ruth wrote: Getting ready to start Part 1. Anyone else reading want to compare notes and discuss? Is this the right thread for that?

Burra Maluca wrote:
Over many years the owner of this site, Paul Wheaton, has crafted rules to try to make the discussion that happens here more constructive.  I tend to do things more intuitively, but somehow I tend to come to the same moderating decisions as Paul about 95% of the time, so eventually he decided to leave most of the decisions to me so he could go off and do other things.  I never really felt qualified for the role, but I felt it was an important one so I stepped up and do my best to smoothe things over where needed, scold members when necessary, remove posts that don't meed our publishing standards, and basically do whatever I can, however inadequately, to generate productive discussion.  

Thanks to Burra Maluca for reminding me of the dangers of the word "should". Ironically it is one of the lessons in the book Peter Senge that people don't like being told what to think.

Terry Ruth wrote:Great book James. I don’t have a big impressive vocabulary nor am I a good writer, so excuse the straight talk and hopefully my intentions will be read properly. I deal and value mostly facts and data, educated opinions by the qualified.

I been a technical advisor for around 20 years on several forums, including corporate Aerospace (I current work as a consultant), Auto, Powersports, now Building Architectural Design/Land Developer we have a small father/son Design_Build company. I’m currently designing aircraft turbine engine structures with other pros on a multicultural “global” consultant design team that communicates extremely well to accomplish very expensive large designs. Not once in my over thirty years can I recall words getting in the way of progress. We have much bigger issues or fish to fry. The atmosphere is professional and we all talk the same value added technical language, or a universal truth backed by decades of facts that governs how we conduct ourselves. There are new efforts in place to make the engineering data and English easier to read for multi-lingual team members, as the corporate leaders lead to a Global Economy_Market Share I don’t completely agree with.

I mention all that for qualifications to offer some constructive observations based on education and experience, not that I claim to be an expert in communications. On the contrary, I humbly recognize the challenges here in this medium.

Here is a pie chart large fortune 500 companies I work for are now referring to as the “issues with electronic communications” (instant messaging, text, electronic sign-off, etc.) or a lack of human interactions that has gone to the way side.   Professor Albert Mehrabian says, “Communication consist of three components. That is 7% words (the internet and forums falls into), 55% tone of voice and 38% body language”. I believe that to be accurate and from a reliable credible source.

Thanks to Burra Maluca for reminding me of the dangers of the word "should". Ironically it is one of the lessons in the book Peter Senge that people don't like being told what to think.

Your book is a supporter of data do you have any to support this? Or are you buying into tribal knowledge? Keep the word in your book IMO. I believe it all depends on the context (tone, body language) it is used in you will not find here on the internet. I’d like to see some quantified data in the 7% populous noted above it does to forum communications across the globe. I think you’ll find the majority of websites are based in tribal knowledge lacking supportive data as such. In the name of “Global” Permaculture for one, I doubt people stop using the word as they see fit and many already practicing it I have read about do not have their “own dictionary”. Yes, it is a double standard to “people don't like being told what to think” including the free use of the word “should”, along with “truth” there are universal truths like it or not. Enough of that, it is not doing anything on a large scale really; the practitioners know what words to use depending on the audience.

I’m on page 13 reading slow, ironically one can see what happens on forums as evidence of tribal knowledge, people here contributing to a discussion without having the proper education and credentials, as seen by some that have not purchased your book, for one example, and many more all over the internet.

What you’ll find on forums is little fact based discussion and lots of opinions by non-qualified people your book discusses. With the internet came knowledge, that in some minds have replaced by goggle search the need for education and experience. Nowadays, some are fooled into thinking, all one needs is a website and they are an expert when in fact all that website did is empowered people to communicate, not make a self-proclaimed expert of the site owner(s) or mods, or anyone, many of which do not have the qualifications in communications, especially this limited value type, more less, the stand alone technical expertise many requiring professional teams. So we need a good book for internet forum communications since most of this book points to human interaction, politics, and professionals.

If Permies.com is looking for better ways to “Protect itself from propaganda, polarization, and failed communications”, and it can take constructive criticism, I’d suggest for one stop the name calling (e.g.: “corporate trolls”, “cheese heads”, self-labeled experts that do not have the credentials, etc.)

Take a look at this thread especially towards the end, you’ll find examples in, little permaculture in practice by practitioners, too much emphasis of words and semantics, name calling and labels, long drawn out twisted theory, etc…validating the OP.
https://permies.com/t/57412/permaculture/permaculture

Today I called big city political officials let them know they “should” check out the tiny home and micro eco-communities developments since in practice it is solving a lot of their problems denoted in their 2035 Community Development Plan in a way much of permaculture hangs its hat on or attempts to practice.

These practical examples is what they were receptive too, my word choice had no negative connotation at all. This is “My Permaculture” and the society I create can use any word they see fit.  

Permie.com tribal knowledge specific: It would be interesting to quantify the ones with the most apples & plus ones (a metric permie.com gives for quality),  to look into their backgrounds, see their resumes, credentials; see the practical contributions they have made to develop Permaculture in these examples as post and threads they advise in. Perhaps one would uncover the “trolls” if one wished to create names aiding tribal knowledge and find these are not the ones to pollinate an accurate fact based website. Yes, a book on internet forums is long overdue, it can be quantified. IMO just as bad as media only since the impacts are not as large, less damaging.

This is not the only site reaching out to books like this for answers. Of course there are many more that want to succeed in its communications style to better promote themselves and sponsors. Knowing where the over/under mod boundaries are and quality is key and there is a ton of info out there about forum management. I believe based on what I’ve read quality accurate info is becoming a real issue, not word choice. IMO this one is over the top and not focused on the practitioner’s with proof of accomplishments or large impacts to develop permaculture accurately.

Just my .02 take it or leave it, and hope I did not offend anyone that is not my intentions.


Terry, I don't have any data on the breakdown of how we communicate. I bet it exists. I think the communication environment in professional groups or at universities is different than public discourse where we have high levels of mistrust and polarization. Public speech is delivered and received on multiple levels, cultural, emotional and moral content have more influence on persuasion than information.