The awesome fertilizing power of pee! Or not?

I've heard lots of you talk about the terrific fertilizing power of your pee. It's a free bucket of nearly bacteria free nitrogen along with some other nutrients. Doesn't need any refrigeration, special tools, don't have to worry about shelf life to use it and it's available anytime you need it. Sounds excellent.

Just one question....   Is it still a good idea to use it when the person is taking drugs? You know, any drugs, the prescription or over the counter drugs for all things that ail us, high blood pressure, cholesterol, impotence drugs etc. How about when the person smokes cigarettes and their urine contains lots of nicotine? Just curious what you think.

I've thought about this before. So, if memory serves me correct, it is in Ben Falks book The Resilient Farm and Homestead he briefly mentions this subject. He often hosts small groups on his homestead to teach, and those that smoke or are taking pharmaceuticals he asks to use the toilet, and those who don't take any pills or smoke may pee on the compost pile. It's been a few years since I read his book, but that is what I remember.

Hi James,
I appreciate your reply. Mostly because I was actually thinking about nicotine in my compost pile when I wrote this. And the little bit of research I've done seems very conflicting. Lots of people online state that you can put almost any weeds in your compost, it doesn't matter if they are poisonous. They say when the compost is done it will break down all the plants into basic elements and the poisons will no longer exist as such. But I've always wondered what happens if I use my compost before it it 100% finished. Is there still some poison residue left?

And I've been researching nicotine in urine recently. According to lots of 'medically related' websites they say that depending on the smoker, that nicotine can remain for days or weeks in urine and that they find nicotine in the urine of people who do not smoke but have just been around second hand smoke! It sounds like nicotine is pretty prevalent in our environment.

Then I'm reminded that tomatoes, peppers and tobacco are all in the nightshade family. So how dangerous is it in the compost pile. I wish I could find a better answer to this question.

My approach is basically "dilution is the solution." To my mind, dilution with tons of organic material, plus the residence time in a living compost pile and then in living soil, will hopefully bring any trace materials below the threshold that I would be concerned about. I would draw the line at antibiotics though. My 2c.

While I don't have any experience nor have I researched this.

Adding vitamins to your soil is a good thing:

https://permies.com/t/59030/Vitamins-Plants

I feel adding pee from someone who takes medication very well could be a bad thing.

These might help:

https://permies.com/t/91663/talk-soil-minerals#750509

https://permies.com/t/130579/Medication-Chart-poop-pee

Especially because a lot of medications could be synthetic and we do not know what these are made of.

Debbie Ann, the answer to poisonous plants is YES!
From; composting process
"The quick answer is YES, you can compost all plants in a compost heap, poisonous or not as the chemical compounds that make up the toxins are effectively broken down during the composting process."
Composting involves making sure the heap gets very hot and its this heat that works its magic.
Using compost before its compost is unwise, since you wanted compost!
"Old, chlorinated hydrocarbon insecticides on the other hand may linger in the compost for a long time before breaking down – if ever, and some such as the banned DDT may well survive indefinitely.
"From; Things not to put in a compost bin
The major route of breakdown of pesticides is through microbial degradation, which is the process of decomposition.
Any pesticide a homeowner can buy without a license will be broken down in the compost pile before the end of the process.
The one exception to this is clopyralid, which is contained in certain Dow products.
Confront is the product that homeowners might use.
This is a long lasting herbicide, and vegetation that has been treated with this should NOT be composted, since the resulting compost can cause serious injury to sensitive crops.
URINE
From; Pee in compost
'How does urine affect compost?
When added to the compost bin, undiluted human urine reduces the time it takes for carbons to break down and increases the nutrient values in the completed compost.
To add pee right to your garden, instead of to your compost bin, be sure to dilute to a 10:1 ratio.'
NICOTINE
From; Composting tobacco products
According to research done by the Rodale Institute, tobacco wastes can be used in place of barnyard manure in compost.
It should be well mixed with other organic matter, since the nicotine in the tobacco can kill soil organisms and insects if it gets concentrated in one spot.
Also, tobacco wastes can harbor diseases that can pass to related crops (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers & eggplant), so use the compost on other crops.
If you are confident that your compost will heat up to 150-160F, which kill most pest organisms, it may be safe to apply it to your tomatoes, etc.
"Therefore, the leftover tobacco will only decompose after a few months but will do so while releasing dangerous chemicals into the compost.
Nicotine is in fact a very potent insecticide.
If this chemical ends up in your compost, it will kill all the bacteria needed for the composting process."
From; decomposition-nicotine-29774.html
'Does nicotine decompose?
In an oxidizing atmosphere (i.e., in air) nicotine begins to decompose around 300°C.
Some of the pyrolysis and/or oxidation products of nicotine include myosmine, nicotyrine, nornicotine, and a variety of pyrrolidine ring-compounds, where most of them are considered carcinogenic.'
Personally I think it may be difficult to reconcile nicotine with living a healthy life.

My two cents...

If it's a short term medication, I might just wait it out.

If it's a long term medication for a particular problem, I would investigate the constituent parts and try to get a better picture for that particular medicine.

Nicotine must have a half-life. I don't know what it is, but basically everything breaks down in the right (or wrong) environment eventually. Entropy and all that jazz.

WOW!!! Awesome answers! And to think I wasted about 20 hours on Google researching this subject! I should have tried Permie's first. Thank you all very, very much!

Debbie, you may not have wasted 20 hours on google.

"Researching is a skill - something I was taught when becoming a Civil Engineer. Time and practice will help it improve."

I started with
-  'poisonous plants in compost' then
-  'poisons in compost'
- 'urine composition and uses'
- 'urine in compost'
- 'nicotine'
- 'will nicotine in urine breakdown'
- 'Does nicotine decompose in compost
- 'can nicotine go in compost'

I was aware on many of the answers from previous work, but I looked for key words to assist further.
It took about 20 minutes

Hi John,
I thank you so much for your encouragement but I doubt I will ever get very good at researching online. At least not researching a subject where I want to hear real, provable facts; an experts' research criterion for reaching his/her scientific assessment. After 11 years I am convinced that 90% of the gardening advice I read online is pure bullpucky! Most websites use anecdotal evidence they have simply copied off another website without any independent or scientific evidence.

One source you mentioned was Washington State University. They do a great deal of research and are an excellent resource. I just wish they had discussed 'nicotine' in compost.

You cited “composting tobacco products”....  the 'National Gardening Association” here in the U.S. which does no scientific research. In fact, according to their website their research department appears to be limited to marketing. However, they do accurately mention that tobacco products can harbor diseases. That I know is true from my past research... from experts. It can harbor the 'tobacco mosaic virus' which you can even have on your hands after handing cigarettes. It is very similar to the 'tomato mosaic virus', not surprising since the plants are in the same nightshade family. It can be killed by temps of 150 degrees. I have turned up the heat on my compost pile to 150* on occasion but I prefer to keep it cooler whenever possible and enjoy the worms instead. They are a great benefit!

They mention research that is done by the 'Rodale Institute'. The 'Rodale Institute'  has been around almost as long as I have been and is very well known and highly acclaimed. I have been gathering info from their website for years. But when I looked into it today I could not find any research that they have done regarding nicotine, other than in school lunches. And I spent another  hour going through each of their pages. Couldn't find it! As I mentioned, my research skills aren't so great.

“Nicotine is in fact a very potent insecticide. (That seems true enough. I've read this before.)  If this chemical ends up in your compost, it will kill all the bacteria needed for the composting process." I couldn't find the citation you used for this on any of the websites you mentioned.

My cursory look at Coresta, which you also cited suggests that their primary objective is scientific information. That's the ticket!  I had to read their 2nd paragraph a few times to understand what they were saying. What I got out of it is that nicotine, in and of itself,  is not considered a carcinogen. It only decomposes into several carcinogenic substances when it is heated to more than 300 degrees Celsius which is 572 degrees Fahrenheit. Setting it on fire does that. The temp is generally in the thousand+ degrees. But what happens to it if you don't set it on fire and leave it to decompose naturally. I guess that's the question I am asking. Is it harmful then??

And you are absolutely right.... I think it may be difficult to reconcile nicotine with living a healthy life. Again, I thank you so much for your encouragement! I do hope that my research skills will improve with age but my time is running short and I appreciate all the help that I can get.

I think that medicines found in urine are mostly in the form of metabolites, which have been metabolized or broken down by the body, essentially composted, and don't really resemble the original medicine nor pose much of a threat.

I always restricted this fertilizer to the trees, which love urea. With that said, go ahead and pee on your trees!

Could have been titled " To pee or not to Pee " Shakespeare LOL

Okay what about sunflowers? These are supposed to concentrate heavy metals so theoretically they won't break down in compost. Anyone have research on their decomposition process? What to do with those giant stalks?

Skyler Weber wrote:Okay what about sunflowers? These are supposed to concentrate heavy metals so theoretically they won't break down in compost. Anyone have research on their decomposition process? What to do with those giant stalks?

Around here, sunflower stalks end up on the slow compost pile, with all sorts of other coarse fibrous stuff. And over the course of a few years, with additions of stuff on top and me stomping on it with my big boots and a sharp shovel, it turns into pretty nice compost.

It just takes patience. But of course I am not patient. So I tuck discard potato seed, discard squash seed, all manner of discarded seed-stuff down into this pile of rough stuff. Live or die, baby. And guess what, they like it. Not a huge harvest, since it it gets zero love or management from me. But we get many meals out of the rough compost pile. Which amuses me to no end.

You asked about heavy metals, which of course do not break down. I guess my question is, "How much heavy metal is in your soil?" To my mind, that determines your next move.

Debbie Ann wrote:What I got out of it is that nicotine, in and of itself,  is not considered a carcinogen. It only decomposes into several carcinogenic substances when it is heated to more than 300 degrees Celsius which is 572 degrees Fahrenheit. Setting it on fire does that. The temp is generally in the thousand+ degrees. But what happens to it if you don't set it on fire and leave it to decompose naturally. I guess that's the question I am asking. Is it harmful then??

Chewing tobacco causes cancers of the mouth and esophagus etc. The discarded chewing tobacco packets that show up in the sawdust I collect from lumberyards here in India have horrific photos (govt mandated) of such cancers on them. And a student of mine had her father die of mouth cancer a few years ago. So yeah, tobacco is carcinogenic not only when burned.