Scaffold branches and laterals off of them.

Been a while since I've posted, but here we go.  I have  a grafted apple tree on M111 root stock.  My question is what length is optimal for the scaffold branches, the laterals coming off the scaffolds and how many laterals per scaffold?   What I'd like to see are some pictures of 5 year old apple trees to see how they look after your pruning.  I just like specifics.  There are few working orchards in my area.  And most don't want me wandering around their trees!   Thanks.   (PS I'd post a picture of mine but I'm a bit embarrassed about how it currently looks!)

I have been watching this guy who has a youtube channel called skillcult.    Seems he likes to follow the methods that are very old.  he maintains his trees to 4 or 5 main branches and then the fruiting branches come off of them.    
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL60FnyEY-eJCEZZTvoeEsvGxVVXXiIiq4

Dennis, I finally (yea, I know, 2 years!) got to look at the youTube video and it was helpful.  I think I am leaning toward the modified central leader as my central leader is to aggressive.   I need to watch further videos and see if he addresses the pruning of the secondary scaffold branches.   I was going to attach a video, but I can't attach a file with the .mp4 extension?  Bill

Do you have a picture of your apple tree if you have problem uploading a video or linking to yt or vimeo? How does the tree shape changed compared to two years ago? Is the length control of secondary scaffold branches your major concern?

I will post pictures later today, I hope.  The tree is not much larger than 2 years ago, but maybe I'm over pruning it?  Yes, how far out do I allow the secondary scaffolds grow?  Do I have too many of them.  Then there are the water sprouts.  More later....  

Here are several pictures from different angles and one from 2021. The secondary scaffold limbs at the bottom are about half as long as the trees height (about 17 feet).  Also, a pruned and unpruned branch, plus a question about fruit bearing spurs?  Is that what we see there?  For the tree top pic. I'm thinking of cutting it off at the red or yellow line based on a youTube video (skilcut) to slow the height, calling it a modified central leader.  Just cut back the top each year.  I really should already know how to do this pruning, but every winter I question myself.  I fear I am lopping off the fruit bearing parts of the trees, since the yield is low.  (Not many blossoms last spring).  Then again in recent years late frosts have been an issue. Or should I just let it go one year as it is, half-pruned (half-assed LOL) and pay CLOSE attention to how it bears this spring.  Ultimately, I'm asking... do I have too many secondary scaffolds and/or lateral branches?  Remove all water sprouts?  Do I need to be careful not to remove more than 1/3, which I may have done in the past.  Any other suggestions are welcome.  Thanks, I hope this is fairly clear. Bill   (This is a graft from the family homestead, we are not positive of the variety. Could be a red astraken (sp).  My father just said a cow took a dump and the tree grew, so we always knew it as the cowshit tree). If I'm asking too much I apologize.  

I think either of the cuts you show will be fine. I personally lean to minimal pruning myself, and so doing nothing will be fine also, and you will probably have better fruiting that way since some varieties bear on the tips of branches which pruning can cut off, and also pruning generally stimulates vigorous regrowth instead of fruiting wood, so little to no pruning encourages more fruit bud formation.

Best of luck!

Steve

I watched a video about maintaining the secondary branches at certain length while keeping the tree productive but i couldn't find the link now. I feel it's relevant to your question so here's the summary of the method and I sketched a diagram too.

Basically a long branch is shorted in the first winter, come next spring there will be several shoots coming out due to the lack of apical dominance. In the second winter, analyze the shoots and get rid of the one growing on the upper back of the branch, the one crossing over with others and only keep one or maybe two if space allowed. In the third year, there will be fruit spurs developing on last year's wood. If after a few years the branches go too long again, repeat the cycle. By only dealing with a few branches this way each year, the tree will less likely have alternate bearing.

It seems for this branch in the picture, you pruned it short and didn't selectively eliminate some of the subsequent shoots.  And if you trim all of them short, it's possible some of the fruit bearing wood is lost and that will cause lower production.

Thanks, Steve and Mary.  I think I will incorporate both of your suggestions.  

Steve, cut back the top to make the tree easier to maintain.  And let some branches just do their thing.

Mary, so in your edited picture (thanks) basically eliminate the yellow and keep the pink, a year one cut as per your diagram?  Do I have that right?  One thing I have learned is that even when heavily or badly pruned, trees just want to keep growing!   Thanks, Bill  

Bill Weible wrote:

Mary, so in your edited picture (thanks) basically eliminate the yellow and keep the pink, a year one cut as per your diagram?  

I mean keep part of the yellow branches for fruit production. The one on the right seems weaker and grows towards the trunk so it needs to go. The rest three are in a cluster, just pick one or two to keep. Once they start fruiting, the tip growth won't be so strong and the branches will be more horizontal. I think your tree already has a nicely spaced primary scaffold and just need to remove some of the excess lateral shoots.

Just a follow up...  remove or head back...  see the picture, Thanks, Bill