Another study- antioxidants dangerous

Ever since the meta study written up by the NYT, on the dangers of multivitamins, i have been dropping most vitamins, and all but Vit C, of the anti-oxidant supplements from my diet.

Have instead been ADDING oxidants, mostly nitric oxides precursors from bodybuilding supplements. Here is another study that shows it may be the right path.

Don't follow blindly anywhere...


http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/346280/description/A_little_radiation_is_good_for_mice

My impression is that vitamins and supplements are clearly healthy additions to ones diet, outside of a few exceptions. Would not need to look for for the blatant and obvious deceptive techniques used to discredit them. We even heard recently that organic food was not more healthy for you, even though the actual studies said the opposite.

As for don't follow blindly, I could not agree more




http://www.naturalnews.com/035363_vitamin_E_bone_loss_study.html

If we all ate healthy, balanced diets, we would have no need for the synthetic crap.

I use supplements to be just that, supplements. I work 6 days a week and often can not remember the last decent meal I had that was on a real plate. Let alone cooked in a home. They bridge a major gap in my life. I can tell the difference when I run out and go a week without my vitamins and "magic" pills.

By the way. I was contacted by some sniffing around trolls not so long ago. I think they were trying to get me to make some kind of statement. Just beware of how you present. I smell a rat trying to make a case or quota. Just beware friends.

The problem with most supplements is they are not all of high quality nor do they contain the amount of ingredients that are listed on the labels. Many supplements are just junk, it is buyer beware and don't let the clerk in the health food store help you choose your supplement as their knowledge comes from the suppliers monograms which in most cases is pledgerized fron the legitimate and clinical proven supplement. In most cases supplement are generic and the supplements you can buy in your grocery store are generally just as good as the most expensive ones in the healthfood store. Read your labels and make certain they are natural, synthetics are definetly garbage.
As for antioxidants there are a few that have absolutely no therapeutic value. The Grapeseed extract supplement is one of the biggest lies in the natural health publication’s as it has never been clinically proven or shown to have any more value than a few oranges per bottle. The origins of grapeseed extract come from Mesqueliers OPC85 which is patent protected and one of the most powerful antioxidants on today’s market, I believe it is now unavailable in Canada and can only be purchased in the USA, the only product I would recommend is Nature’s Way Tru OPC’s. Antioxidants are great to prevent various forms of cancers particularly prostate cancer but use only when prescribed by a qualified practitioner. Let me state here that a qualified practitioner will put you on the right path and save you a lot of money. Self-medication is not a good idea when dealing with a serious disease.
If you are using supplements instead of eating a healthy natural diet you are not going to get much from them as most supplements lack the necessary enzymes that utilize their value in the cell.
Here is one fast food type formula that is live food and packs a wallop of energy when made and stored properly. 3 parts Raw natural Flax, 1 part Raw natural Sunflower seeds, 1 part Raw unhulled natural Sesame seeds and one part Natural Raw Hemp or Chia seeds (hemp does not require herbicides) place in a coffee grinder and blend until well powdered. Start by using 1 tablespoonful, mix with a bit of water or juice in the morning, chew well as you drink, increase to 2 tablespoonsful after a week or two and then to 3 tablespoonsful within a week or so. Drink at least 8 ounces of fluids after taking this formula to help it from causing a binding in the colon. This formula is alive with enzymes, vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids it will boost energy and give you a great amount of necessary fibre. You can make up to two weeks supply and keep in a sealed jar for up to a month in the refrigerator or 6 months in the freezer. This simple inexpensive formula will improve health and energy dramatically, it is absolutely great for those who have high blood pressure or high cholesterol. The high fibre content helps to cleanse the colon and feed the healthy intestinal micro-organisms
Dennis Labbe CH

good to read

I suppose the resistance to supplements should not be a surprise here. I have not suggested that diet is not the first and foremost health issue priority. However diet alone may have been able to address the insults of a non-industrialized world , i think there is every reason to believe that the present level of chemical insult predates such an idea. as for synthetics well there are a couple of blatantly synthetic vitamins , most commonly Vitamin E. However there are vitamin derived directly from food as well as a lot of producers who are very transparent in their production processes, and who understand their client base to be fairly educated on the pitfalls of processing and therefore take great care in manufacturing a quality product. as for the meta studies at the NYT, anyone following the subject of health is aware of the trend to have so called experts evaluate studies in a way that seems contrary to the actual results. A prime example is the Stanford study in which "the experts" somehow concluded that organic produce contained no more harmful pesticides than did organic when the studies clearly showed the opposite. I would suggest however for those here that discount supplements that they consider either digging into the studies a little deeper or that they they self experiment to see effects for themselves

And finally in regard to self medicating and only following the advice of qualified practitioners. The truth of the matter is that there is virtually no danger in reasonable supplementation, so beyond extreme behavior there is very little risk involved. there are some exceptions such as alpha lipoic acid can be a problem for those who have heavy toxic metal loads in their bodies and vitamin C can be problematic for a very small minority of people who have a hemoglobin metabolism disorder, and minerals need to be taken within the suggested ranges. but in the great majority of cases I would suggest the meme of dangerous vitamins is simply a lie propagated by orthodox medical interests. Now if one is using supplements with the belief they can cure a serious medical illness that can be a different story, and the involvement of a practitioner is advised. However at the same time we should keep in mind that allopathic medical treatments are either the number one killer in the country or number three depending on whose numbers you follow. also I think we should also consider the place of the expert in our world and whether this 'giving over' to the expert class is not at least a part of the crisis we face. The problem being both the degree to which experts can be paid advertisers of their corporate masters, but also in terms of the passive approach it creates in the consumer and the public at large

DNA discoverer Crick comes out about cancer and anti-oxidants too.

dont see his original paper tho...

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/bre90805n-us-usa-cancer-watson/#

but i do like Vit C, just posted this in the cancer thread too.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss06/intravitc.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread915507/pg1&addstar=1&on=15684789#pid15684789

Of all the essential substance Oxygen has been proven the worse. Studies after studies have shown the 02- violently attacking DNA, unraveling the 3D structure of proteins. That is it I am going to stop stop breathing until my will power bows out.

finally found the paper by crick, just below the title on this page

oops, Watson

http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/36762

Actually heavily oxygenated tissue is the most healthy. It is when oxygen becomes a positively charged ion that things get ugly

Matt Grantham wrote: Actually heavily oxygenated tissue is the most healthy. It is when oxygen becomes a positively charged ion that things get ugly

I think we can all agree that most things in this universe can be both good and bad
While Oxygen/vitamins might under limited conditions do bad after a couple years/decade. without them our lives would be measured in minutes or weeks.

dunno.

LOTS of studies of phages and other housekeeping cells show that they are using heavy metals, and free radicals as weapons to destroy invaders and overly aggressive residents.

after the NYT metastudy, i would seriously discourage the use of multivitamins containing metals AND vit c in the same tablet. Basically, it is taking all those metals, and rusting them inside your body, when it looks like your body needs em un-oxidized, as tools.

Looks much safer to take separately, or switch over to seawater as one day, and vit c and d on another. I can't take the D because the D3 causes leg cramps/ clottingin calves within a day.
The more i see of requirements, the more i am amazed at how close the balance is to seawater, less the sodium.

Just ordered another ultrasonic cleaner to try and make some liposomal C, cuz my eyes are starting to hurt from computer homework....

http://www.quantumbalancing.com/liposomalC.htm

hmmm

and reactive oxygen required to regrow your tail....

http://phys.org/news/2013-01-secrets-tadpole-tail-implications-human.html

I think this is the original study

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=205797#qundefined

colorectal cancer treatment by Grape Seed Extract.

using it as an oxidant, read last paragraph

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/255182.php

another one.

Milk thistle blocks skin cancer by releasing ROS oxy.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130130143636.htm

ROS coupled with antibiotics increases efficiency.
Raising peroxide production in cells

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130204095932.htm

Regardless of theories about modern foodstuffs being denuded of vitamins and minerals we are still the fattest , most overfed , gluttonous society ever to walk the planet. Never has a society had available such a wide variety of foodstuff choices. Fast food , pan-asian , vegan ,paleo , grass fed , whatever - you name it we have it. Six percent of the population consuming sixty percent of earths resources and we still think we are missing something . I for one am overweight and could do with less , not more. Vitamins included.

Wayne, try some kind of paleo/primal/low carb diet for like 3 weeks. There are multiple threads on permies on this topic and there are some synergies with permaculture.

Even though the 1st 10+ lbs maybe "just water" it's still good because inflammation in the body is going down. You may need extra sodium to counter the water loss. A few sites to refer to:
Peter Attia (eatingacademy)
Mark's Daily Apple
Gary Taubes
Robb Wolf

Just keeping em coming.
This one points out the difference in counting coffee and tea as antioxidants instead of oxidants, and some fruits and veggies change the equation too.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-02-antioxidants-diet-dementia.html

I read the study it states that high levels of antioxidants from coffee/tea with lots of caffeine stimulant negates the antioxidant benefits.
But high level of antioxidants from vegetables and fruits does in fact help.

Its not really ground breaking everyone knows that caffeine is not that good.
And that the fact that you need it means that you are not getting enough rest or unhealthy and so we turn to it for a little pick me up.

I have also heard that wine is full of good antioxidants and that someone went an drank a gallon but due to the high level of naturally occurring alcohol, the antioxidant did not help, in fact they died.

looks like scientific american has a new article, in the print magazine

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-free-radical-theory-of-aging-dead

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=675463

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17327526

http://www.rdasia.com/antioxidant_myth

http://news.discovery.com/human/aging-free-radicals-antioxidants.html

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000556


http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/brief-update-protandim/


Efficacy of vitamin and antioxidant supplements in prevention of cardiovascular disease: systematic review and meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23335472


Antioxidant supplements for preventing gastrointestinal cancers.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15495084

Another look at the Watson story on ROS, and a little discussion of diabetes pathways and antioxidants.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21729080.200-nobelwinner-watson-do-antioxidants-promote-cancer.html?full=true&print=true

no results on vitamins to prevent cognative decline either

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130415151439.htm

Now THATS an antioxidant mix !!!

http://www.toolsforhealing.com/Downloads/intraMAX_Information.pdf

http://www.toolsforhealing.com/cd/Articles/B/BobBeck/BobBeckIn-VivoArticle.html

the ROS pathway of tuberculosis seems to finally have been discovered.
This releases the mycobacteria, that either have to be killed immediately, or they will reproduce.

They show a few combinations of drugs to help, and why

http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674%2813%2900344-9

Vessel wall reconstruction requires RoS

http://highmagblog.blogspot.com/2013/05/may-9-2013.html

The latest one in the Gaurdian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/07/vitamins-stop-taking-the-pills

Lots of linus pauling in the story....

A few problems with this article.

The biggest is no mention of the interaction between vit C and sugar. The more sugar in your system, the more C you need. Or maybe best said- if you eat low carb, you don't need much C.

No mention of how animals that manufacture their own C manufacture different amounts under different circumstances. "The normal everyday non-stress production of vitamin C proportioned up to represent the amount made on a weight basis corrected to the size of the average man (seventy kilograms), is from five to ten grams (5,000-10,000 mgs) per day. Under stress, that amount can be quadrupled. A goat for instance can make up to 100,000 mgs of Vitamin C daily if under stress." http://www.vitaminc.co.nz/introduction-to-vitamin-c.htm

It reminds me of the low fat v low carb debate. The virtues of low carb are more complex so people believe the simpler low fat "story."
Or the amount of calories versus what calories debate.

They make it sound like Pauling died of C induced cancer but forgot to mention he did achieve his original goal of living past 90!

But the biggest problem with this article is the promotion of regulating natural products! They even vilified one of the best permaculture plants - comfrey (said it could cause hepatitis)! Do we really want the government regulating comfrey?