Humanure composting questions.

Hi all. My wife is not on the permaculture journey with me and is not ecstatic about my plans to begin composting my poop. I am trying to come up with an option for composting my poop that will minimally offend her sensibilities. For example, something that is contained, such as in a 55gal drum or other fixture could be useful.

A separate question... I am in a hurricane prone area. When a hurricane rips through, I don't want poop to be blown all over my yard. How can I compost my poop in a hurricane-safe way?

Would a mobile option be possible? I've read about systems that use 55 gal drums. I could load them onto a dolly and store them in the garage if a storm comes.

Edit: Also, does the location of where the composting is done matter? For instance, distance from a vegetable garden or something?

First, WELCOME

There are plans using 55 gallon drums and big wheelie bin trash cans.

No real setbacks from the veggies if they are sealed. Where in your yard is more about logistics and temperature control. Shade in the summer and heat in the winter and out of the way but easy to move a 200 lb barrel. And yes you need to worry about hurricanes. If you don’t flood it should be as simple as tying down but moving into a garage might be easier.

There are other options like worm composting that you might find more to your liking.

When used in composting toilets, buckets of about 20L size are used so they can be moved around.
Also, you can use then sooner as compost because you are not waiting for a large container to fill and then compost.
From memory 20L canms are available in about 12 months if sawdust etc is added during the filling period.

R Scott wrote:First, WELCOME

Thanks. I've learned a lot from these boards; happy to finally be a member.
Since my wife is opposed to humanure, I'll be the only one using the system. How long might you estimate it would take to fill a 55gal drum?

The Veggie Professor wrote:

R Scott wrote:First, WELCOME

Thanks. I've learned a lot from these boards; happy to finally be a member.
Since my wife is opposed to humanure, I'll be the only one using the system. How long might you estimate it would take to fill a 55gal drum?

There are two of us and with diverting urine it takes us two month to fill up a 55 gallon barrel.

Veggie Professor, welcome to the forum!  There are aerobic, fermenting, aging, dehydrating, and worm based designs (including use of normal flush toilets).  Given your situation, here's one option that may work for you that I've used in the past:

Omick Barrel Toilet: This design was officially certified in Arizona.  We've used it both indoors and outdoors, with and without urine separation, with around 100 users (including a 3-day youth camp of 75).  Feedback of users was all positive, and our family liked the extra space between them and their deposits more than with a bucket toilet.  In my family with children we did have issues with the urine diverter clogging, even after going to larger tubing, but my family were pleased with the end compost.

Thank you both for your comments.

Burton, I've learned a lot from your webpage already; thanks for sharing your experiences online, it's been a big help!

The barrel toilet looks like a good fit, other than the fact that my soil is filled with limestone (south FL). A pain to dig, but I can suck it up and try to make it work.

I was also considering the "wheelie bin" protocol, as it would allow me to store them in the garage easily. This design calls for a drainage valve, which I haven't seen on 55 gal drum designs. How necessary is it to be able to drain liquid from the bin and, if necessary, where should this take place? I'm in the suburbs, so I don't have a ton of space. Does it need to be kept away from anything in particular? (vegetable garden, fruit trees, etc.).

When we used the barrel toilet indoors we just used a step up since sinking it into the ground wasn't an option.  Also while people have worried about the potential smell of a compost toilet, in actual use it has been pleasant, even indoors, if you use good cover material.

As far as need for drainage from a bin, managing for liquid buildup at the bottom of the bin is important.  First and foremost is choosing a good cover material that wicks the liquid well.  Notice the test that David [Omick] is doing on his cover material page.  Second, I highly recommend the compost crank he suggests.  This will allow you to easily mix in dry cover material if for some reason you do get liquid buildup.

My preference and that of my family is to avoid the urine diversion.  It can be hard for the ladies to use effectively, it gets clogged, and its just one more end product that you need to figure out how to manage.  Running the drain line to one area could cause issues with a high water table or nutrient overload, and having studied composting down to the microscope level I'm not as confident that it is always as clean as we'd hope which could result in a pathogen risk when highly concentrated in one area.  There are simple ways of ensuring pathogens in the urine are killed, which I've used, but then you have bulk stinky pee to distribute.

As far as your options, including setbacks and usage on crops, your local code may have some guidance.  Sometimes code can be confusing or even appear to be more restrictive than it really is.  I've found it helpful to actually work with the approver in our area to obtain clarification.  As a side note, I don't know if they use septic tanks in your area, but there are vermifilter options that could maintain the same flush toilet experience for your wife (e.g. vermifilter.com), even achieving treatment to the level the WHO has determined to be safe for the re-use on food crops.

I'm planning on using urine diversion. It is only me using the system (male). I'll pee into a bucket and dilute with water, then water my bananas with them.

In looking at the schematics for the system you are using, I didn't see anything for allowing water to drain out. Does a system like this assume that you are using a good material for absorbing moisture (e.g., sawdust)?

Mike, worms, vermiculture.....there are several good threads here about it.  I can't say enough good about it.  I haven't touched sewage in the 7 years I've had it.   It lets you use a real ceramic toilet inside so there's no sense that it's any different from a regular toilet.   Absolutely no smell.  They can bake, drown or freeze, so there is a special setup for the receptical they are in.

And I've mentioned on these threads several times, it's important to have at least one ceramic toilet for when someone gets sick.  Throwing up in a composting toilet in the middle of the night is just a little too rustic....and it won't help to change anyone's mind about composting poop.

I do catch the runoff water and water perennials and fruit trees with it, but it can be sent down into a PVC set of T-shaped rows that have perennials or fruit trees growing near them.  No use wasting it.

There is a little maintenance in that if the worms escape they can multiply in the line and you might have to clean that out.  Doesn't take a lot of work.  Getting it to work in the first place sometimes takes a few tries, but it's not complicated.  They use it in small communities in Canada successfully.

Mike, correct, there is no outlet at the bottom, so a good moisture absorbing cover material is used.  Liquid that would pool at the bottom would be tainted with poop, so it would need to be handled differently than urine.  David [Omick] mentions that his design was heavily focused on controlling all disease vectors, so a closed system for all poop was intentional.

Burton Sparks wrote:Veggie Professor, welcome to the forum!  There are aerobic, fermenting, aging, dehydrating, and worm based designs (including use of normal flush toilets).  Given your situation, here's one option that may work for you that I've used in the past:

Omick Barrel Toilet: This design was officially certified in Arizona.  We've used it both indoors and outdoors, with and without urine separation, with around 100 users (including a 3-day youth camp of 75).  Feedback of users was all positive, and our family liked the extra space between them and their deposits more than with a bucket toilet.  In my family with children we did have issues with the urine diverter clogging, even after going to larger tubing, but my family were pleased with the end compost.

Hey. Sorry to follow up on this so long after your initial response, but a question came to mind. Do you use this system only for humanure, or do you put other compostables in it as well (e.g., food scraps)?

Mike Bh wrote:Do you use this system only for humanure, or do you put other compostables in it as well (e.g., food scraps)?

Hi, Mike

This thread/post might answer that question for you:

https://permies.com/t/53604/composting/Humanure-Carbon-Stock#450329

Mike Bh wrote:Do you use this system only for humanure, or do you put other compostables in it as well (e.g., food scraps)?

Mike, great question!  I did not add food scraps.  Joe Jenkins pointed out that adding food scraps to an active container would increase the risk of flies, and suggested that adding food scraps right after pulling the container out of active toilet use might make more sense... you can fill it more than you'd feel comfortable using as a toilet and any flies wouldn't be as much of a nuisance.

I have tried diversifying the non-fly attracting compostable materials I use in an active container, e.g shredded mullen stalks, ripped up toilet paper rolls, shredded paper, various types of sawdust, screenings from an aged wood chip pile, peanut shells, etc..  I'd love to get more access to leaves, grain hulls, and other material.  I'd be curious to see what other people use.  I think that a very diverse cover material would result in a higher quality compost.  In my current Joe Jenkins bucket toilet method I've resorted to simplicity in cover material and I manage diversity when building the outdoor compost pile.

i have seen off grid with doug and stacy. they use a bucket and saw dust then compost it. they have a few videos.

Hello,. I read with interest, the details Re: Omick Barrel Toilet. One question remains: I found no images or details on emptying the full containers.  Shovel? Forklift? Post hole shovel?

Eugene Kenny wrote:One question remains: I found no images or details on emptying the full containers.  Shovel? Forklift? Post hole shovel?

Eugene, see the "Emptying barrels" section of the Owners Manual with a description and pictures.

Hi -we've been using this method -    - for the last 12months with excellent results - I have pictures of the build - including the  emptying of the bin and the finished product! - link  to pics (https://photos.app.goo.gl/inf4qbaewkr8cP1g9)  

Steve, thanks for letting us know your experience with the Geoff Lawton method!  I've been a bit hesitant with Geoff Lawton's design, but your post made me think through it more thoroughly. In case it helps, here are my concerns with that design along with some suggestions on how you might overcome them:

My main concern with his system has been the leachate.  In comparison, the leachate in the Clyvus Multrum system (link) kills pathogens as it passes through the thick layer of finished compost they start with and continue to develop.  While you could start the Geoff Lawton bin with finished compost (vs sawdust) I question if you could really get it thick enough to be confident in the pathogen kill before it gets too full or heavy to move.  Listening to it again it sounds like he might be suggesting subsurface discharge though.  Discharging right at the surface under low growing plants would give you 99% pathogen risk reduction if no pooling occurs (permitting agricultural irrigation only where there is some protection for people that might go there). Going subsurface enough to ensure no surface access would give you 99.9999% pathogen risk reduction (permitting unrestricted for agricultural irrigation).  This is based on the WHO Guidelines for the Safe Use of Wastewater, Excreta, and Greywater (link, see section 2.3.1).

Perhaps my bigger question should be with his estimate of 6-10months to complete the composting process without any qualifications.  For comparison, the DIY Omick Barrel toilet design was tested to be pathogen free after at least 4 months at an average temperature down to at least 50F (ref) when manually aerated at least once every 2 weeks.  They estimated that for every 5F below that you should add several more months to mature (basically waiting for warmer temps).  The Geoff Lawton system does not seem to use any activate aeration and the bin doesn't seem large enough to reliably reach temperatures that would kill pathogens (1 month around 110F and 1yr around 108F per the plot in the humanure handbook).  Perhaps you could overcome that by manually aerating with a hand crank while ensuring it stayed warm enough for several months or just wait a conservative 1-2 years as with the Joe Jenkins hot composting method.

I'm also not as confident in how well sealed his system is from small insects (disease vector control).  He shows sealing around the toilet chute, but the rest of the lid doesn't look like it is sealed particularly well.  I bet you could add some closed cell foam tape to seal it there though.  I hope these ideas help.

A couple additions to the last post:

The 99% risk reduction resulting in safe agricultural use if people are protected would assume a 90% pathogen kill before discharge for a total of 99.9% total risk reduction.  Keep in mind though that the passive aeration pipes might inadvertently allow leachate to bypass effective cleaning by the compost.  I'd be curious to know if the top of the pile gets the same kind of impermeable "lense" at the top like Dean describes for vermifilters here, making it even more probable that leachate would bypass treatment from compost within the bin.  Composting worms naturally occur in manure piles, and adding them may help reduce the risk of bypass (but likely not eliminate the risk given how narrow the bin is) and improve pathogen kill in the compost and any leachate that does trickle down through it.

I suspect that the use of the chute makes it harder to ensure you've fully covered your deposits to prevent smell and effectively prevent bugs from bringing pathogens out.  This suggests ensuring you have a seal not just around the bottom of the chute and bin lid, but the top of the chute and toilet seat lid.  If you seal everything air tight you could also consider adding a dedicated vent with a bug screen to allow the passive aeration pipes to function while in use and curing.

In summary of the 2 posts, some ways to help ensure the safety of the Geoff Lawton composting toilet method include 1) starting with some finished compost instead of sawdust; 2) adding worms when there is enough moisture to sustain them; 3) ensure the effluent discharge is subsurface; 4) use closed cell foam self-adhesive weather stripping to ensure a good bug seal around the bin lid, chute, and toilet seat; 5) add a vent with bug screen for in use and curing; 6) and either manually aerate at least once every other week while in use and curing or cure for 1-2 years.

Thanks for the response.  

The leachate you refer to is non existent, in our case at least - we have six bins and none of them have produced any  leachate - we actively encourage the men to piss on the plants outside and it's optional for the women, and visitors!  We have sealed the chute with a foam ring but this has proved unnecessary. The trick is to make sure you use enough cover after each use. Our bins are emptied after sitting for 12 months into another, large, compost bin which will compost for another 12 months before we use it on the garden.  Each bin is started with a layer of saw dust and put straight into use - we recently tried using untreated wood shavings but quickly reverted to sawdust after some odour developed.

Burton Sparks wrote:A couple additions to the last post:

The 99% risk reduction resulting in safe agricultural use if people are protected would assume a 90% pathogen kill before discharge for a total of 99.9% total risk reduction.  Keep in mind though that the passive aeration pipes might inadvertently allow leachate to bypass effective cleaning by the compost.  I'd be curious to know if the top of the pile gets the same kind of impermeable "lense" at the top like Dean describes for vermifilters here, making it even more probable that leachate would bypass treatment from compost within the bin.  Composting worms naturally occur in manure piles, and adding them may help reduce the risk of bypass (but likely not eliminate the risk given how narrow the bin is) and improve pathogen kill in the compost and any leachate that does trickle down through it.

I suspect that the use of the chute makes it harder to ensure you've fully covered your deposits to prevent smell and effectively prevent bugs from bringing pathogens out.  This suggests ensuring you have a seal not just around the bottom of the chute and bin lid, but the top of the chute and toilet seat lid.  If you seal everything air tight you could also consider adding a dedicated vent with a bug screen to allow the passive aeration pipes to function while in use and curing.

In summary of the 2 posts, some ways to help ensure the safety of the Geoff Lawton composting toilet method include 1) starting with some finished compost instead of sawdust; 2) adding worms when there is enough moisture to sustain them; 3) ensure the effluent discharge is subsurface; 4) use closed cell foam self-adhesive weather stripping to ensure a good bug seal around the bin lid, chute, and toilet seat; 5) add a vent with bug screen for in use and curing; 6) and either manually aerate at least once every other week while in use and curing or cure for 1-2 years.

Steve, thanks for sharing your experience!  It's good to hear from people who've actually done it.

I thought maybe this thread could use the new Willow Candy Warehouse video.  Watch it here: https://youtu.be/Cxk50Q9GbWw