Is there a point in taking Fortier's Market Gardening Masterclass before taking Geoff Lawton's PDC?

The title pretty much sums up my question, but here is some additional context:

I recently got my Bachelor's degree in Agronomy with a focus on Plant Biotechnology. I got into it because I thought I would love working in science, but after spending many hours in the lab and wrestling with academic intrigue and bureaucracy for 4 years, I got severely disheartened.

I took an interest into Permaculture near the end of my education and it seemed to be what kept my love of agriculture alive and stoked my hope for humanity as a whole. The first ever course I saw was Geoff's and even after looking at many others, I'm still keen on taking his one. I missed the sign up for this year, as I was busy finishing up with university, but I'm definitely going to get my PDC in 2023.

In the mean time, I've been looking at other kinds of courses and Fortier's course piqued my interest. Is there a point in taking it before my PDC or do they have overlapping information? What else should I look into doing/learning while waiting for the next PDC?

Sorry for the wall of text! Thank you all in advance

Geoff's will teach you to incorporate a market garden in a permaculture plan but it will be limited in the details of market gardening itself.  so developing that knowledge beforehand will put you ahead on the success path which can be vital if the market garden is what supports you while the rest of the plan matures.

Hi Ivan,
Welcome to Permies!
I noticed your question and had a quick look at Fortier's courses. They seem to run two levels - an introduction (for about $200) and a more advanced cover everything market gardening (for about $2000). I was going to say at least do the introduction one, then saw you have a bit of time to use before taking up Geoff's course.
If market gardening is what appeals, I would suggest that you get as much hands on experience as you can. If you have your own land already - that's great, if not consider volunteering or getting internships in as many different places as you can fit in in the time and money you have available. Reading it out of a book is no substitute for actually getting your hands dirty and someone has to do that! There are usually lots of people asking for extra pairs of hands in the experiences category here on Permies, some paid, some volunteering. There are different challenges in different places and people will overcome them in different ways. I would suggest you have a look at the Wheaton boot camp too - there are lots of opportunities for hands on projects of all sorts at Wheaton labs. Horticulture isn't just about plants, and I don't think anywhere else offers the range of experiences that are possible at the labs.
I wish you well in your future life.

Hi Ivan! I am so glad you made it to the forums!  

Hi, Ivan, welcome to the forum.

What are you currently doing that the Market Garden Course would benefit you?

I can understand taking a PDC to learn more about permaculture.

I feel the Market Garden Course would be better taken when you are positive that you will be doing that type of agriculture.

I feel Market Gardening is an excellent occupation.

If you have the time and the money to do both then at least try the introduction.

You might enjoy this thread about one:

https://permies.com/t/62783/permaculture-market-garden

In case you didn't get a chance to check out all the links, I'll summarize some great options to look into while waiting for the PDC.

Like nancy said, the permaculture boot camp is fantastic and a hands on experience.  Check it out HERE

I really like the PDC/ATC that is on video.  Even though I planned on getting my PDC at an in-person event, this is nice to have because I can refer back to it and it gives me access to the forum related to that to ask all the silly questions that I don't think of at the opportune moment.  Check that one out here: https://permaculture-design-course.com/

Helen Atthowe is a great resource for market gardening stuff.  She teaches a Garden Master Course each January (so far) at Wheaton Labs.  They recorded the last one and are now making a video for folks like me who can't get out to Montana to take it in person.  She studied under Fukuoka and has a ton of experience with market gardening.  You can check out the in-person course here: https://wheaton-labs.com/garden-master/

I recommend buying a ticket to that through the kickstarter that is happening right now.  You not only get the ticket, you also get the recorded course to refer back to at any point, and the digital equivalent of a metric ton of other permaculture goodies.  It is probably the best deal out there right now for what you get.  You can see what I'm talking about here: Garden Master Course Kickstarter Page

Now that you're here at permies, you'll find there are a lot of things you can do before during or after taking a PDC.  I also recommend checking out SKIP: https://permies.com/c/skip     It is my favorite thing so far.  

Welcome to the permies family!

Thank you for the very warm welcome, everyone!

All your advice is great and I will take it to heart, keeping in mind all the complexities of my own life, of course.

I will probably read more info/watch videos on Market Gardening before deciding whether to jump into a course. Me and my fiancée want to grow food for our own happiness and wellbeing, but also to provide a source of income, so that's why I'm interested in Market Gardening, besides being a fan of the Permaculture philosophy.

As for getting my hands dirty, there aren't many options for me except to try to incorporate such methods in my parents' garden. Organic/Permaculture farms are exceedingly rare in my country (Bulgaria), especially the latter. Job offers, paid or volunteer, are basically non-existent for such farms. That's why I want to study permaculture - to develop it more in my home country and possibly teach and inspire others to do the same.

Hope you all have a wonderful week! <3

Ivan Ivailov wrote:Thank you for the very warm welcome, everyone!

All your advice is great and I will take it to heart, keeping in mind all the complexities of my own life, of course.

I will probably read more info/watch videos on Market Gardening before deciding whether to jump into a course. Me and my fiancée want to grow food for our own happiness and wellbeing, but also to provide a source of income, so that's why I'm interested in Market Gardening, besides being a fan of the Permaculture philosophy.

As for getting my hands dirty, there aren't many options for me except to try to incorporate such methods in my parents' garden. Organic/Permaculture farms are exceedingly rare in my country (Bulgaria), especially the latter. Job offers, paid or volunteer, are basically non-existent for such farms. That's why I want to study permaculture - to develop it more in my home country and possibly teach and inspire others to do the same.

Hope you all have a wonderful week! <3

Hi Ivan!

Have you looked into the Balkan Ecology Project ?  I don't know if they're anywhere near you, but they're in Bulgaria and also offer online courses.  I have ordered plants from them and they've always been very nice.

Ivan,
I've actually taken both- well, I took Geoff's about 5 yrs ago (when he offered the FULL DVD set with the course- and I have the GOLD of these forever resources). Prepare to have your little science mind blown out of the water. I had no idea why I was designing us into burnout... open mind, download sense.

And I started Fortier's last year when I wanted to do more toward markets, but discontinued because I'm really not enamored with his way of doing things. I think I would incorporate some of what he was doing, but in a more Permaculturey way- like bark paths that generate new soil breakdown and no weeds instead of "weed control" "bug control." I know when you get things close together and "mono", you have to do some of that, but he's not even organic and definitely not a polycultural approach to growing.

It doesn't hurt to start the course to get your feet wet though- as long as he still offers a money back guarantee within a certain time-frame. You might find it suits your needs better than it did mine.

Now we have purchased land in SW Missouri and are selling Lots in a Community that is protected from conventional Ag. You can see a property tour and our available Lots here on Youtube. If you know anyone looking for land, they start at $30,000 for 3 acres.

Cheers,
Kristie

Morfydd St. Clair wrote:

Hi Ivan!

Have you looked into the Balkan Ecology Project ?  I don't know if they're anywhere near you, but they're in Bulgaria and also offer online courses.  I have ordered plants from them and they've always been very nice.

Hi, Morfydd!

I am aware of Paul's work and have been planning to arrange a visit, as he isn't based too far from me. I didn't know that BALKEP offers online courses though, so thank you for the info! Price-wise, it seems to be completely the same as Geoff's PDC, so I'll still have to think it over. I'm more keen on visiting and getting to see all the principles in person!

Kristie Harper wrote:Ivan,
I've actually taken both- well, I took Geoff's about 5 yrs ago (when he offered the FULL DVD set with the course- and I have the GOLD of these forever resources). Prepare to have your little science mind blown out of the water. I had no idea why I was designing us into burnout... open mind, download sense.

And I started Fortier's last year when I wanted to do more toward markets, but discontinued because I'm really not enamored with his way of doing things. I think I would incorporate some of what he was doing, but in a more Permaculturey way- like bark paths that generate new soil breakdown and no weeds instead of "weed control" "bug control." I know when you get things close together and "mono", you have to do some of that, but he's not even organic and definitely not a polycultural approach to growing.

It doesn't hurt to start the course to get your feet wet though- as long as he still offers a money back guarantee within a certain time-frame. You might find it suits your needs better than it did mine.

Now we have purchased land in SW Missouri and are selling Lots in a Community that is protected from conventional Ag. You can see a property tour and our available Lots here on Youtube. If you know anyone looking for land, they start at $30,000 for 3 acres.

Cheers,
Kristie

Hey, Kristie!

I'm glad you managed to get some physical goodies back when you took your course! I don't mind it being all digital, I plan on getting some physical books, like Mollison's Designers' Manual, to have material to fall back on when I need to refresh my knowledge on a topic. And I don't mind getting my mind blown by the principles of Permaculture either - I'm excited for it even!

I see. Many people have told me by now that there is a gap between what Permaculture teaches and what Market Gardening seeks to accomplish. Both can be combined, but each person has to find the path that strikes the balance between both things and makes them feel well, both physically and spiritually.

I might try the beginner's course in the future, or I might just read some books and watch videos. Only time will tell what I will do, but I am still very grateful for everyone's invaluable input!