Compost, here I go again

I totally suck at composting. I have tried many times several different ways. It never gets hot. Even the cold compost that sits for a year didn't compost. I tried to use it this spring having waited more than a year, and nothing had broken down.
I buy organic compost. I work for a co-op, and even with my discount it's expensive. One bag isn't to bad, but with all my gardens, it really adds up. Besides the expense, I wonder how good it is. It's organic matter, but I would think most of the soil life is dead. I could be wrong, but I've never found a worm, or anything alive in the dry plastic bag.???
So here I go again.  Even though I suck at it I still compost if for no other reason then to have a place to put my garden and  kitchen waist.  I watched a YouTube video, the weedy garden. He got usable compost in 21 days.  I don't really expect results like him, it inspired me to try again.
I add a second stall/compartment/bin next to the one I have. I was going to use some old pallets, but noticed one of my boys had put an old wood bin in the burn pile. Perfect. I removed one side.  I cut the side I removed in half and added them to the back and outside of the box then I patched some of the holes with scrap wood.
Now I'm ready. The first thing I do is water the soil and use the garden fork to loosen up the soil. This took a while because the soil is like concrete. (Also I have hurt my low back somehow, so I'm moving slowly. Plus I trying to be careful. I want to be able to move tomorrow). Once I've loosened up the soil I started adding stuff. I'm not a measuring type person. I'm trying to add small layers of browns, greens, and soil.
I hope I have enough. I thought I did, but as I'm removing compost from my other bin I noticed I don't have a compost bin , but a drying bin.  Everything is dry, with no composting going on at all. It looks  like more than it is. So I'm braking everything down into much smaller pieces, and watering between each layer. I hope to have at least 3 feet high when I'm done. I ran out of light and will have to finish tomorrow. I will put a piece of black plastic on the top, and a removable front.  My plan is to turn every two days.( Probably won't happen, but as close as I can manage)
I will post my progress, or lack there of
Wish me luck, I'm going to need it

Composting has a recipe.  Getting the ingredients right but in the wrong portions will leave you sad - for a while.
Everybody knows green and brown but also white (air) and blue (water).
Sounds like you were short on blue and maybe green.
Add lots of water initially and a good activator - comfrey, dock, grass, coffee grounds, urine.
It is excess pumpkin season here and they make great compost ingredients.
And if you get tired of turning, add another color to the recipe - red (worms).
They do all the heavy lifting and make a better compost to boot.
Good luck and have fun.

Every time I think I have enough to make A hot compost pile I'm wrong.   I only managed about 2 &1/2 feet.  Then I was working on my greenhouse, then the holidays. So today I started again. I stapled cardboard to the side of the other compost section.  I made it so it would be 3'x3'x3. I moved the compost and added everything I could find in the layers. I believe I have enough to heat up.  Time will tell.
Even though it hasn't heated up it has definitely been breaking down. It was nice and moist, and loaded with worms. The stuff on the bottom actually looked like rough compost. So that is encouraging. It didn't smell until I started moving it. Even then it wasn't to smelly with the exception of some pockets of kitchen scraps. I made sure it brake them up and add shredded cardboard or wood chips on top.
I know ideally I should turn it every couple of days. I doubt that will happen. But maybe once a week.  With some luck and hard work maybe I will have useable compost by spring.

It’s not that hard.  

Get a big pile (about a cubic yard at least) of wood chips.  Mix enough of a heavy N source (chicken manure is ideal) to get it perking; a hot pile.

If you don’t have access to chicken manure, use urea commercial fertilizer and swallow your pride.

Jen Fulkerson wrote: Once I've loosened up the soil I started adding stuff. I'm not a measuring type person. I'm trying to add small layers of browns, greens, and soil.

My plan is to turn every two days.( Probably won't happen, but as close as I can manage)

I think you are getting close Jen!  The main thing is that you are willing to go through the process of learning and practicing.  The more mistakes that are made the better you will end up understanding in the long term.  

There are a couple of things that you mentioned that might be preventing the outcome you are looking for, which im seeing is...Hot Compost!  There is a difference between compost and decomposition, btw.  Technically it is not compost until it has reached a certain temperature.  

Firstly, it is not recommended to add soil (mineral) to compost.  This is not something that feeds the bacterias responsible for heating up a pile.  A lot of people will even add wood ash, and this is something that I used to do to, but again, its a mineral material.  What you want is the organics.  It is the "greens" that will really help to produce heat. Chunks of woody pieces like sticks and branches, or even wood chips, can slow down the heating up process.  It depends on the pile, of course.  If it is large enough, and has just the right amount of oxygen, nitrogen, and moisture, then even wood chips and small branches can turn into a long lasting heated pile that can be tapped into as a heat source for many months, to possibly even more than a year!  A great resource for this type of approach is "The Compost Powered Water Heater" by Gaelen Brown.  He also has a free youtube video you can watch from Living Web Farms... https://youtu.be/cvMi6hgfcnw?si=V351VJzfaZge1bD6

Secondly, turning compost is actually counter productive, and not necessary.  With excessive turning there is a release of bio-aerosols, which can result in the loss of organic matter, and nitrogen.  A properly made pile does not require turning.  This can be accomplished by having a lot of insulate type carbon material on the outer edges of the pile such as leaf litter or saw dust.  The center of the pile is where the rich nitrogenous type material is continuously added over time, and then covered up by the carbon material to prevent rodent activity and nutrient loss.  When you are ready to add more, then you simply rake away the insulate material from the top, add more "greens", then cover up again.  The core of the pile is where it will be the hottest anyway, so it makes sense to add the nitrogen source closer to there.  

I have had smaller piles heat up fairly quickly using a similar technique.  I could throw a dead chicken in the center and within a few days i could go back and feel a noticeable warmth coming from the pile without having any bad smells released.  At that time I was making biochar from rice husk and adding that to the piles. Its what we had available to us in abundance at the time.  Now I am using mostly leaf litter gathered from neighbors who bag it up and leave it on the street to be thrown away.  

Something else that can really help with heating up piles is manures. This is one of the big reasons most people aren't able to get their piles to the temperatures they are shooting for.  Any kind of animal manure can work, even your own excrements!  

The humanure handbook is an excellent resource to learn more about this type of composting, and it is available for free! https://humanurehandbook.com

Geoff Lawton also has a video about making a very quick compost, although it is a lot of work with all the turning involved.  But it is a different method shared by one of the permaculture masters, so worth checking out: https://youtu.be/CRSm4kIG5yk?si=i3H0vGiWJBMbHQz3

I am not in need of quick compost. I have four 4x4x4 bins + one drum type bin + four 5x5 mushroom beds.   I rotate the 4x4 bins annually.  After four years of sun, rain and snow, they seem to be ready.  I don’t watch what goes in them in terms of mix.

Arthur and John both gave you really good advice/information but drastically different in the amount of Jen time the compost will take.  
I'm really glad that you're trying again.  I also hope you don't stress over compost.  It should be very chill.  
Everything rots (I stole that!)  Is there a specific reason you are trying to get a hot compost?  
I'm a worm guy and you said it was loaded with worms.  Great job.  Spike the football and go work on something around your place that only will get done by you.  
Let the worms take care of your compost.  They will definitely get you useable compost by Spring.  
Keep them fed, wet and add lots of cardboard/paper/leaves and they will reward you for leaving them to do their work.  

Enjoy.  

I'm going to go chill and harvest my worms and compost.

Thanks everyone. I love to learn new things, so value all points of view.
I try not to add weedy stuff in the compost, then I don't have to worry about it. This time I used a bunch of grass clippings. The problem with that is our grass is really weeds we mow and pretend is grass. I want to use the compost in the veggie garden, so I don't want weed seeds.  This is why I would like it to heat up.
It still hasn't heated up.  I will keep trying, but have decided after this I will put the "grass" clippings in a black bag, or in water to kill any seeds, then add it to the compost. Then I got stop worrying about it heating up.
Thanks everyone.

I been busy, and haven't turned the pile yet.  Yesterday I noticed the cat sitting on top of the compost. I went and checked, and sure enough it was warm.  Not steaming, or hot, but not cold, and it was cold out and rainy.  Maybe it's starting to heat up.  I'm contemplating buying a long temperature gage .  

Good sign the microbes are eating and multiplying. If you feel there's too much heat escaping, cover the top with some corrugated cardboads. They work really well for insulation without restricting air supply.

This is my free standing compost pile last month. It was steaming hot inside filled with thermophilic actinomycetes. The cardboards and tarp help a lot with retaining the heat.

I was gearing up to move my compost into the other bin. It's been 21 days since I turned it,(so much for once a week). My son came and asked me if I wanted him to do it. I was just about to give my normal response which is no I can do it. Stopped myself and let him help.  He turned the whole pile for me.  It was great not only did I get a free pass, my son asked how long it took me to do it (wayyyyyy longer than it took him). And he commented on what a work out it is.  It's a win win.  He got a workout and a a little insite on the work I put into growing our veggies. And I didn't have to do the back breaking work, and spent time with my son.

While the compost was being Turned I added some wet pine shavings, and some handfuls of alfalfa pellets.

It's definitely breaking down. It was warm, but not hot. It had an unpleasant smell, but wasn't very bad. You can't smell it until you start turning it.  Maybe the pine and turning will help.

I have decided I need a third bin. With 2 bins leaving one empty, and turning the full bin into the empty bin it means I'm always adding new , so in a since I will never be done.  The top was hole fresh stuff, and the bottom looks like it's getting close to being done.  The three bin system I always have a place to put the things I want to compost, the middle 1/2 way there, and the last for almost done, just need to finish it off.
I haven't built the third bay yet, but what I have been working on all this time is in one. And new stuff is going into the empty.
I just keep changing the plan, maybe someday I'll get it right.  I will say the dare I say compost that was the bottom 2/3s looked pretty close to compost to me, and it smelled like soil.  The only bad smell this time were a few eggs that exploded during the turning process, and they stink to high heaven.  There were only worms in the very bottom ( might be because it was 105, and kind of dry. There were a ton of bugs!  Millipedes, potato bugs, cockroaches.  I worry about adding that to my soil.  Anyway it better than I have gotten before, so I will keep moving forward.

Jen, good news, good job!  

First - celebrate the good compost.  Then be glad that you have 'easy to accomplish' improvements.
Best is the enemy of good.  You have good...and a way to better.

I wouldn't worry too much about the bugs.
If you didn't add them to the compost, they were already there.

Maybe do a quick, rough screening with your finished stuff before you add it to your beds.
Or, leave it close to your first pile for a bit so the critters that want the fresh stuff can go back to work.

Again congrats!

I'm certainly no expert, but I'll add some thoughts.

Begin with the end in mind.  Think about what you want to achieve.  Ultimately, if it is just about breaking down the organic matter, hot versus cold compost is less important.  I know there are strong advocates on both sides of this fence.

I heard a professor speak about compost a while back (University of Guelph if I recall).  I can dig up his name, but don't have it at hand.  He was a proponent of less work.  Also, organic material breaks down in the wild - a slow, cold compost process.  Perhaps there's a principle there - Use Slow and Small Solutions.  Anyway, he was an advocate of cold compost being fine, just taking longer, so you may need more space / more bins to accomplish that over time.

I also follow Dr. Elaine Ingham's Soil Food Web School.  I enjoy seeing what their people accomplish, but they are pretty religious about hot compost, recipes / proportions, thermometers, and checking everything with a microscope.  I don't have time for that.  I also have a climate that isn't kind to hot compost for half the year, unless I bring it into a structure.  I don't easily have enough of the right proportions of materials.  If I gather leaves in the fall to use in the spring, they already do a bunch of breaking down over the winter, especially if they are stored exposed to elements and get wet.  

One thought I've heard that I have no reason to disagree with is that if you are seeing pests, it is too dry.  You won't have mice in a compost bin if there's enough moisture present, so when I have seen that, I've made a point of watering.

At our city property, our issue is that our limited bin space would fill up in the winter and freeze solid outside.  So, we put our kitchen scraps into buckets and when I get a chance I take them to our compost area at the acreage.  There, we have birds, rabbits, mice, and who knows what else gets access to the exposed scraps.  They break down whatever is bigger and turn it into some level of manure and urine on / in my pile.  I'm fine with that.  Back to our city bins, we have the covered black units - not the best, but I understand they are made for city aesthetics and sensibilities.  They tend to dry out as I forget to water them.  Ice broke one of the lids a number of years ago, so more water gets through and that bin will consistently break down faster.  I also think that we've achieved some sort of critical mass concept as things seem to be moving faster more consistently.

I'd certainly be interested in making "better" compost, but I'm with John.  Lazier works for me.  I'd rather have yards of good compost I can use to amend soil, but I'm not interested in spending the money, time, and stressing myself out over making it.  I've become OK with letting it happen so that I can work on higher priority stuff.  Ultimately, I can also feel OK that we don't send our organic material to landfill where it contributes to a broken methane cycle.  So, I guess for me it's about waste diversion and doing what I can without stressing about it or spending a bunch of money on tools and infrastructure to do it "better".  I guess that pretty much puts me in the camp of forest floor slow composter.

I think there was more I was going to add, but have forgotten it by now....

I spent a lot of time making compost and I got very good at it.  I actually enjoy turning it.  It's pretty light, easy work, and I like being outside.  Obviously with some physical limitations like Jen has, that isn't the case for everyone.  All that said, I rarely make compost anymore.  The job has been given over almost entirely to the chickens.  They seem to enjoy it as much as I do, and it frees up my time to do other things.  If you can have chickens, it may be worth considering.  Chickens are very easy keepers, give you a great source of protein and fat, and are fun little animals to have around.

I have a two bin process. Made them from pallets, like most seem to do. I started with kitchen scraps and eventually had some garden clippings to add. I use oak leaves and other misc. stuff for carbon. I keep the active bin covered and add water as needed. The second bin is my "aging" bin. I take all the compost from the previous year and load it into that bin. No turning at that point because I usually have volunteer tomatoes and squash growing out of that pile. No cover on that one.

My technique on the active pile is to load material on one side until it is around two feet thick. Then I give it a toss to the other side and let that sit. I start adding to the empty side again. Once that is around two feet thick, I turn the older pile onto the newer pile. Then start all over again. Over the year, I end up tossing from one side to the next. I am on a suburban lot and do not have a lot of material to do the 3 x 3 x 3 hot compost method, so this slow and steady process really works for me. Since I use grass clippings for mulch, and the droughty summers lately keep the grass shorter, I don't have that resource for the compost pile. We have several old growth oaks in the neighborhood, and most of the leaves from the trees next door end up in my driveway. I collect those and have a pile to use as compost topping when I add fresh green material.

The cardinals and robins love my compost pile. I often spook them when I come out to dump our kitchen scrap bucket. So funny.

Thank you both very much.
I have given up on hot composting, and I'm ok with that. I don't put weeds in the compost. I did dump our grass clippings into the pile, which was the reason I was trying to get it to heat up because our "grass" is weeds we mow and pretend is grass.  So far even when I turn it I keep stopping and water to make sure the entire pile is wet no weeds have sprouted.  This is actually my main dilemma. I like to add the  grass clippings to the pile, but if I'm cold composting I don't want to introduce weeds with the compost.   Maybe I should just put the clippings around the trees, and eliminate the worry.  I think that's what I will do from now on.
I'm positive my pile gets to dry.  I have so much to water, I rarely think of watering the compost pile.  We don't get very much rain, even in the winter, and summer is hot and very dry.  Most of the time it only gets water when I turn it which isn't very often.  So I will try to be better at watering my pile.
I think I need to make a bigger sifter.  Good idea. It does add another step, but maybe then I can eliminate some of the critters.  Should I use 1/4", or 1/2 " hardwire cloth?  Seems like 1/2" would be good enough. 1/4" would take a lot longer.  What do you use?
I have chickens, and had a compost pile in the coop, but that didn't work for me either.  The chickens ate a lot of what went into the pile, and spread out what they didn't eat. I never really got compost.  It seems like the perfect compost method, but if you don't have a great deal of compostables you just end up with happy chickens, that isn't a bad thing, but doesn't help me get compost for the garden.
I have thought about asking the organic grocery store if I could have there throwaways, then I would probably have enough. I have not followed through with this because I'm not sure I want to take on another commitment.  I have a lot of responsibilities, and spare time is hard to come by.  But... It would be great not to have to buy so much compost.
Thanks again I appreciate the information and encouragement.

Now I remember a couple bits I wanted to add.

First, most weeds will only be an issue if you wind up adding seeds to the pile.  If you are cutting them before they flower and go to seed, most of them wouldn't be an issue.  That said, you may want to be cautious about any that may grow vegetatively from cuttings.  Of course, if they stay in the pile long enough, that won't be an issue either as they would compost down.

The other thing to avoid is diseased tissue.  I think that's common advice, but if you have some disease vector that you don't want to spread you may not want to compost that material especially if it is something that is spread by bacteria or fungi which are more likely to survive a cold composting process.

Jen Fulkerson wrote: Should I use 1/4", or 1/2 " hardwire cloth?  Seems like 1/2" would be good enough. 1/4" would take a lot longer.  What do you use?


I have chickens, and had a compost pile in the coop, but that didn't work for me either.  The chickens ate a lot of what went into the pile, and spread out what they didn't eat. I never really got compost.  It seems like the perfect compost method, but if you don't have a great deal of compostables you just end up with happy chickens, that isn't a bad thing, but doesn't help me get compost for the garden.
I have thought about asking the organic grocery store if I could have there throwaways, then I would probably have enough. I have not followed through with this because I'm not sure I want to take on another commitment.  I have a lot of responsibilities, and spare time is hard to come by.  But... It would be great not to have to buy so much compost.
Thanks again I appreciate the information and encouragement.

I use 1/2" hardware cloth and it works great.  1/4" can be used if you need really fine stuff for seed starting, for for most things, my feeling is that it's overkill.

As far as using chickens, they definitely spread everything.  They love piles, and they love making piles as flat and smooth as any landscaper could do.  I pile everything organic in with mine.  Lawn clippings, all food scraps, everything left over from my garden, leaves, wood ash, you name it, it goes in with the chickens.  It takes a while, but they will build up a layer that is pretty much all compost.  When you need some, shovel it onto your screen over a wheelbarrow, give it a few shakes, and dump any chunks back into the chicken yard for them to work some more.  It helps if you get in with a garden fork sometimes to break up any hard crust if it forms, but it isn't really necessary.  I hope you find a system that works for you, compost is great stuff no matter how you make it.

My compost never did heat up, but I ended up with usable compost. I used it this spring. This year I had worse bug problems than in a long time. That being said everyone was saying the same, and it wasn't the bugs I was worried about, so I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with the compost. I didn't see any weeds as a result of the compost. If I'm talking about hot composting it was a total fail, but if we are talking about usable compost, it's a win.

The only time I had compost that didn't take 6-9 months, my son turned it about twice a week for us and within three months it was usable! That was very very nice. I have gotten into the habit of adding worn out jeans, because the jean holds moisture very well during dry spells and it breaks down very well.

Good that you got a decent product!

I don't worry much about composting. It all gets piled up willy nilly wherever there is an open spot. In the fall I dig a pit and push it all in. Wood, leaves, kitchen scraps. Everything. Then just bury it. A year later in the next fall it all gets dug up again and everything except the hardest wood is mostly decomposed. The pit is filled again for the next year. With all the fall leaves I have to dig several pits, so basically that whole garden gets turned over every year or two at most.

What I have found is that I use purchased bulk compost for layering my no dig beds each year. Around two inches seems to keep everything fertile. My homemade compost is around a quarter yard per year at this point. I screen this and mix with some of the purchased compost to make a great potting mix. I have been using that to pot up seedlings, grow on baby trees that I start from winter sowing, and pot up cuttings that rooted out in my garlic bed over winter. So far this system is keeping both my vegetable beds and my nursery pots well fed. I don't use it for indoor seed starting. Best to keep the basement free from the aroma.

The whole hot compost thing is something available to those who have the space and the materials to get it set up properly. For those of us on smaller parcels of land, in suburban neighborhoods, the cold compost, slow and steady approach is very workable. I enjoy the way the compost bin is a focus for wildlife where I live. Not sure who is doing it, but there is someone who loves to eat the remaining flesh off of watermelon rinds. They are scraped clean within a couple days of putting them out. I wish I had a camera out there to catch the culprit in the act. The fact I can't do a hot compost is not a reason to give up. Just a reason to figure out a system that works and run with it. So far, so good.