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organic lawn care for the cheap and lazy

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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I don't know about dogs, but I do know that people will put cayenne pepper on their gardens to keep cats from using it as a litter box. Part of their mission is to smell the spot first - and the cayenne pepper is a big turn off.

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Leah Sattler

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posted 16 years ago

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you could try marking your territory!

they may not want to do their business somewhere where a "big dog" has claimed ground. or it might make it worse

at the very least it will at least add to the lawn if you don't do it all in one spot all the time.

[img]http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/havlik1/permie%20pics2/permiepotrait3pdd.jpg[/img]

"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent

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posted 16 years ago

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I have a question about a small city yard...it's lumpy and bumpy...should we have it rolled? I haven't seen anything about lawn rolling here...

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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Tell me about your soil.

If your soil is like "dirt" or cement, then if you focus on building organic matter, then it should soften and level out on its own.

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jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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My name is Jeremiah. I recently found the site and have begun working the ideas into my yard. I've known about and have been practicing the mow high technique for years. This is me and my wife's first house, which we bought in Jan. 08. The house was a foreclosure (read as 'neglected') and is in a nice HOA governed neighborhood. The front and back yards are mainly dandelions and clover, with some other weeds and grass here and there. Last year I was working full time and school full time, yet the wifey demanded I do something about the weeds. I didn't have time to research, or even really implement a plan. I defaulted, with a cringe, to Weed'n'Feed. I followed the directions on the package and the result was some slightly happier appearing grass and some sad, reddened weeds. The weeds recovered several weeks after treatment. I now had my "told you so" case for the wife, who now shares my sentiments on "Big Chem." I stopped the chemical treatment before any lasting harm could be done. I've concluded that I'm dealing with alkaline soil with low nitrogen, based on the dandies and clover. The soil here is silty clay, with hard clay starting about a foot down. As per standard development regimens, the topsoil had been totally stripped (house built in 1995, soil is starting to get a bit better and has a healthy colony of Fernandos.) Our side yard is healthy grass with a few beautiful dandies here and there. The front yard is rather smallish, and currently sports the stump of an overgrown maple, and some dug up areas where I manually removed high running maple roots (I actually find the labor therapeutic and relaxing.) The stump is scheduled to be ground out later this week by yours truly. My plan for the front yard is to remove the stump waste and roto-hoe the soil and work in some compost (commercial acidic/woody type) to about 4-6 in. Then I will level the grade slightly as there are some weird dips and humps. I plan on seeding with a tall fescue, (I'm in central Indiana.) I've already done a couple of your post-hole fills in front as well. The backyard plan is simply to top dress with the same compost mentioned above, and fertilize. I'm using Scott's Organic Choice, derived from: hydrolyzed feather meal, meat meal, bone meal, blood meal, and sulfate of potash; 11-2-2 analysis. I'd use Ringer if I could find it locally or free shipping at standard product prices. But the Scott's stuff seems okay, and looks and smells the way you describe the Ringer stuff. I spread it for the first time yesterday, so I'll see how it goes. The norm for the neighborhood is well groomed and relatively weed-free yards with a few highly contrasting weedy yards for good measure. I plan on fitting in with the norm, but also be the first on the block to do it without the icky stuff. I'm currently between two chemically-altered lawns, one of which is uphill and upstream of us on the watertable. After a very heavy spring rain, you can still hear the water flowing underground for a day or two. I dread to think about how much chemical runoff is flowing through my ground.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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I'm also amazed sometimes how even for all my weeds, my lawn can look better than the weed free chemlawn neighbor's after they scalp their grass down to 1 1/2"-2". I'll take 3" weeds before brown grass any day.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

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posted 16 years ago

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Hi! Just wanted to thank you for the organic lawn care info. We took your "weird idea" and did our own version. We dug out plugs in our lawn about 1 1/2 ft. by 1 ft. and then dug down about 1 1/2 ft. into the dense CA clay. Tough work! We mixed our homemade compost with the clay and refilled the hole, placing the plugs back into the soil and watered them in. It's been about a year and a half -- you can tell where we've worked--the grass is green, fast-growing and more drought-tolerant. This is our rainy season lawn improvement project. When dry season comes, there's just no working with that clay! I can only speculate on the chemical abuse it may have received in seasons past, but no more! This is just to get a good foundation going. Once the soil is healthier we'll just do the "mow high & fertilize" thing.

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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jeremiah,

I have sooooooo much to say and ... as always ... not a lot of time ....

First, I think the "Scott's Organic" will be okay.

As more time passes, the less I like the idea of using commercial compost. I would much rather come up with other ways.

Considering your knowledge level, I wouldn't be making guesses about alkaline soil until you've read at least 20 soil analysis reports! Get a test!

Maple stump: lucky you! I'm thinking that you should make it into a planter - or maybe grow some mushrooms on it!

I've already done a couple of your post-hole fills in front as well.

Attach pics! I wanna see! I want reports!

The norm for the neighborhood is well groomed and relatively weed-free yards with a few highly contrasting weedy yards for good measure.

Let's see if we can get you the best lawn in the neighborhood. We can try to shoot for the monoculture look if you really want, but I would like to suggest the meadow look with wildflowers and yarrow and all sorts of interesting things that will make for something far more beautiful.

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paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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katie wrote:
Hi! Just wanted to thank you for the organic lawn care info. We took your "weird idea" and did our own version. We dug out plugs in our lawn about 1 1/2 ft. by 1 ft. and then dug down about 1 1/2 ft. into the dense CA clay. Tough work! We mixed our homemade compost with the clay and refilled the hole, placing the plugs back into the soil and watered them in. It's been about a year and a half -- you can tell where we've worked--the grass is green, fast-growing and more drought-tolerant. This is our rainy season lawn improvement project. When dry season comes, there's just no working with that clay! I can only speculate on the chemical abuse it may have received in seasons past, but no more! This is just to get a good foundation going. Once the soil is healthier we'll just do the "mow high & fertilize" thing.

Pictures!

When you post, you will see "additional options" and then you'll see how you can upload pics!

With such excellent results, if you wanna try again, you could rent a power post hole digger and dig 40 holes in about half an hour.

And you can put sticks and leaves and other organic matter in those holes too.

Pictures!!!

(ahhhh .... tis a good feeling to think big thoughts and other people do all the work to prove that you are RIGHT!

)

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jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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paul wheaton wrote:
As more time passes, the less I like the idea of using commercial compost. I would much rather come up with other ways.

I'm with you on that point. I selected a local landscape company that composts its own waste, mostly tree and shrub trimmings, and its rejected flora from its nursery. It is only a couple of miles from me, and the price is good at $40 for 2 cubic yards. I am building a nice size compost pile with some scrap lumber in the backyard, near my garden. I already have some first season leaf mold from the fall, and some grass clippings I bagged last week, (dandelion seed harvest.) I did decide to get lazier on the backyard and be more patient. I'll use what's left of this load of compost on the front yard and be done with it. I'm scaling back there too. I'm just going to fill in where the stump and roots were and top dress the rest. If I have some left over, I'll do some more post holes in the back. I'm trying to talk the wife into a small vermicomposter in the kitchen. She hates worms with a passion, so we'll see.

paul wheaton wrote:
Considering your knowledge level, I wouldn't be making guesses about alkaline soil until you've read at least 20 soil analysis reports! Get a test!

I already have the samples bagged to be sent this week. Being Indiana, and our abundance of limestone from being the former ocean floor, it is a well funded guess. Quarries are almost as abundant as corn and soy. But as you said, it is still just a guess. If I'm wrong, I'll at least be rid of some evergreen trimmings and have some extra OM in the soil.

paul wheaton wrote:
Maple stump: lucky you! I'm thinking that you should make it into a planter - or maybe grow some mushrooms on it!

Alas it is dead center of my small front yard, in a HOA, and I'm trying to help the next door neighbor sell their house, to avoid foreclose for them and a second vacant house next to me. So the stump will go. But... I did save the trunk and branches and will be using the wood for various projects. I may do that with the trunk. I won't be offsite disposing of the grindings. I'll find a good use for them. Compost, mulch, and post holes and such.

paul wheaton wrote:
Attach pics! I wanna see! I want reports!

Let's see if we can get you the best lawn in the neighborhood. We can try to shoot for the monoculture look if you really want, but I would like to suggest the meadow look with wildflowers and yarrow and all sorts of interesting things that will make for something far more beautiful.

I need to get some batteries for the camera. Hopefully I'll find my rechargeables. I'll keep tabs on the current holes, and get some photos of the process and materials on subsequent holes. There is a failed swale along the rear of the yard that stays swampy even several days after a stiff rain. I plan on putting a few back there to help loosen up the ground and hopefully get it loosened up and draining eventually. I'm building a fence soon, and plan on doing some practice with the power auger before doing the actual fence.

I'll get some overall before and progress photos of the entire yard as well.

I'm not really into the monoculture look, but I do want to get the lawn looking its best while I shrink it and place more landscape that is resourceful. I want to get the front lawn up to looking status quo to build some confidence in the neighbors, and hopefully turn them onto a new way of doing things. I plan on putting out a small sign declaring the lack of chemicals used in the yard. I do like your ideas for yarrow, roman chamomile, and the rest. That is part of my plan. I don't think anyone in the neighborhood will object to what I have envisioned. I'm looking in the direction of The Dervaes of Pasadena, but still have some lawn for the dogs. Our property is about the same size as theirs, but odd shaped being on a cul-de-sac. I just discovered their site from a link elsewhere in this forum, and I love it. So the lawn will shrink as other things grow. Thanks for the site and this forum! It is very inspirational.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

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posted 16 years ago

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I really enjoyed your article and have learned I've been doing everything wrong--mowing too short, not fertilizing properly, and hate to admit but added a couple of weed 'n feed applications a couple of years ago . Currently, my yard is a disaster and has many more weeds (of every variety) and ant hills than grass. I'm assuming it's low on nitrogen as black medic is choking about a quarter of the lawn out. I just sent a soil sample to the university soil analysis lab but was told the only way to get rid of the weeds was to spray them and start over. I really do not want to be like the rest of my neighbors and poison the lawn with a bunch of chemicals.

I have only about 4-5 inches of top soil and would like to add more. I like your idea of covering the existing "lawn" with topsoil and compost, but I want to make sure that it's thick enough to kill the weeds so that they just don't grow through. Also, would I add additional fertilizer to the
topsoil/compost mix prior to seeding?

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posted 16 years ago

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Kimberly, with 4-5 in. of soil you are way ahead of me. I'd be inclined to fertilize with Ringer if available or Scott's Organic Choice if not. Follow Paul's directions. Mow high, mow often, water only when needed. The weeds really don't like being cut at with the mower, (not sure about the medic.) Paul and others on here have convinced me of the cheap and lazy way, (whenever feasible.) If you need your yard nice yesterday, then another 4-5in of soil should kill the weeds. If you added compost, then I'd wait to fertilize until you get a healthy stand of grass. I've done a few decent sized bare dirt patches that I topped with straight compost and threw down seed, raked it in and watered daily or more. I had grass there faster than any of my neighbors who were patching their yards. Nearly a month after I got some thick grass, it still looks good.

Update on my yard. I got the stump routed out and have nearly a yard of good shredded wood that I'm gonna either age for mulch or compost. I left a layer of shredded wood in the hole and surrounding area. I covered the wood with grass clippings to help mitigate the N loss. I covered the clippings with compost and filled the remainder of the hole in with same compost. I left a small mound over the site of the hole. I threw down some seed, raked it in and mulched with straw and water. I'll have pics of the process when I find my camera cable. I'll have more pics when the grass gets going. BTW - Pennington Kentucky 31 Tall Fescue, from Lowes.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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kimberly,

I think jeremiah covered it quite well.

Try the cheap and lazy way for a while and see how your lawn does. You might see such a massive improvement that you'll just let go the idea of doing lots more stuff (more work and more money).

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posted 16 years ago

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Okay, I just got the results of my soil tests back.

Front yard: pH 6.4
Phosphorous 23
Potassium 131
Organic Matter 4.0%

Back yard pH 5.8
Phosphorous 27
Potassium 112
Organic Matter 3.2%
Recommendations: High nitrogen fertilizer 3-4x/year (1lb (actual nitrogen)/1000 sq ft)
No pH adjustment needed

Isn't a pH 0f 5.8 acidic and shouldn't lime be spread especially when there is a lot of moss in the back yard? If lime is to be spread, which kind is better -- powdered or pelletized?

Our county extension office does not have a horticulturist on staff and I spoke with a master gardener there and was very frustrated by the end of the conversation. While she acknowledged that organic practices and fertilizers were better for the environment, her advice to me was WEED and FEED! She said that if my lawn was 50% weeds (and it is in some areas) there was no way I could have a decent lawn without using chemical pesticides. Well, I haven't given in to that philosophy (yet). I found the Scott's Organic Choice and spread that this past weekend, put the mower deck up as high as it could go and have mowed twice already. There are SO many weeds. In the meantime while mowing high, water infrequently, etc, is there anything that I can do with the large section of creeping charlie (13'x19') and some kind of small light purple violet that is now starting to show up? Also in thinner areas, can I at least spread some compost and seed the areas to start incorporating the tall fescue in? Any thoughts would greatly appreciated. My lawn is the real eye sore in my neighborhood of the lawn cult.

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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I would put down a light dusting of lime every month or two in your back yard and then re-test next year.

Take pictures! You can have a before and after to show the master gardener over there.

BTW: I'm a master gardener too. So we'll have a battle of the MG's!

Upload a pic of the places where you want to put down some seed.

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jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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A week to the day after sowing the TF, it started sprouting today. It should have a good stand in another week or two! I still haven't found my camera cord.

I'll have some pics as soon as I do.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

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posted 16 years ago

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I have been using organic methods for two years now and my lawn looks horrible. I have dandelions and moss...what's up with that??

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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You can use entirely organic techniques and have a terrible looking lawn. If you think about it, doing nothing at all is 100% organic. And your grass will grow tall and spase.

How high have you been mowing? Can you attach a pick so we can see how bad it looks?

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posted 16 years ago

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I planted perennial peanut in my backyard instead of grass. It's the beginning of the rainy season (in SW Florida) and the thousands of little weeds between the peanut plugs are really taking off. My question (talk about LAZY), when I pull the weeds out, can I just leave them on the ground?

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posted 16 years ago

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Yes.

And depending on the weed, your peanuts might do better if you don't pull it.

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jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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I'm curious, would these same "weeds" be beneficial to other legumes, say pinkeyed purplehulls? I'm making clay pellets of the cow pea, (and inoculate) and buckwheat. This will be broadcast over an unknown grass, white clover and dandelions. Are there other plants that would help and be helped in this kind of mix that you're aware of? My goal is a natural no till garden, that will rotate back to lawn eventually.

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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

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posted 16 years ago

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Why would not pulling weeds help the peanut plants? (You can tell, I'm new to this site, can't you.)

jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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The simple answer is that some plants play symbiotic roles with each other. Such as a plant with a deep taproot bringing water and minerals from deep in the soil up and sharing it with a plant that has thick fibrous surface roots that slow erosion and act as a kind of living mulch that keeps water from evaporating rapidly. This is rather a simplistic example, but it gives a quick idea as to what can be possible. Some plants act as a natural pest repellent, some act as a fertilizer (such as your peanut, as the symbiotic rhizobium bacteria that live in its roots fix nitrogen from the air in to a usable form for plants,) and there are many other ways that plants (weeds are plants) can help each other. I'm not sure what exactly Paul has in mind, but doing less is often better than doing more. I've had a fairly big change of mind in how I do things in my yard and garden since finding this site. All of which have helped me achieve more with less input. Another factor to consider is that some weeds react to being pulled by regrowing at insane rates from any small fragment of root and/or stem left in the ground. The act of severing the plant stimulates its self defense mechanism of rapid growth. This rapid growth could out compete your peanuts, making the effort you put into weeding and seeding a waste.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

paul wheaton

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posted 16 years ago

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What Jeremiah said!

People pull weeds because they worry that the plants are competing with each other. While some plants do compete, most plants don't compete - but actually help each other.

Of course, if you are attempting to grow a smother crop, then your mission is different. But if your mission is peanuts ....

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jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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m-a-r-l-e-y , to directly answer your question though, I'd say leave the weeds right where they lay. They'll form a mulch which will definitely help the soil. That is if you decide to pull. Which seems like a lot of effort for a large area.

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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

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posted 16 years ago

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Well, thanks everyone. Perennial peanut is a ground cover (it's also called ornamental peanut), so the goal is that once it gets established, it will smother everything else. But since it's been planted in plugs (they sell it in rolls like sod, apparently, but this is a different species), there is still some bare ground in between them. It is that bare ground that is being coated by weeds (some of which, like grass, wouldn't be "weeds" anywhere else). So, I think I'll continue to pull the weeds (it's only a small backyard) and just leave them where they land.

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posted 16 years ago

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Sounds like a good plan for what you want to accomplish. It gives a new meaning to Weed-n-Feed! You weed, and in turn feed the soil. Win-win, imo. You might try cutting the weeds at the soil with a sharp hoe to speed things up, if you have one. That's the only thing I'd do different. Once the peanut is established, anything that pops up and doesn't start taking over the peanut, I'd consider a good thing.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

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posted 16 years ago

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You could plant Earth Turf!

It has low maintenance grasses and microclover, which is a fraction the size of common clover so it blends in better.

http://www.earthturfco.com

My sister planted it last spring and its going well so far.

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posted 16 years ago

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[size=14pt]Such a helpful and informative article.
So funny - thanks Paul Wheaton (assuming you wrote the article)!

Fernando the earthworm's plight has inspired me to help them thrive.
[move]

[/move]
We live in Tacoma Washington. Just bought a new house with a big open lawn and some fruit trees. My wife and I are planning on adding a raised garden next year. For now, I'm concentrating on helping the lawn.[/size]

[size=16pt]I'm new to this here forum - is it very active?

[/size]
I think I'm gonna read the article again...good times lol

paul wheaton

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I wrote the first pass of the article in 1994. And have made tweaks to it over the years.

These forums are, I think, pretty active.

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jeremiah bailey

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posted 16 years ago

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I'd say these forums are quite active. I've read the Lawn Care article a couple times myself. Its a good read and things don't always lodge themselves in my brain the first time around. Welcome grazzmaster. We'd love to share ideas with you. Right now's the time to start prepping for the autumn lawn season. That is assuming you're in a cool season area.

"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller
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Jeremiah Bailey
Central Indiana

Joel Hollingsworth

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posted 16 years ago

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Where excess nitrogen has killed a spot, how about driving wood a foot or so into the soil? Say, a couple pairs of used take-out chopsticks, spaced evenly and driven in flush with the soil or a little beyond. It would have some of the benefits of sawdust and of the post-hole method, with less work.

Bad idea?

"the qualities of these bacteria, like the heat of the sun, electricity, or the qualities of metals, are part of the storehouse of knowledge of all men. They are manifestations of the laws of nature, free to all men and reserved exclusively to none." SCOTUS, Funk Bros. Seed Co. v. Kale Inoculant Co.

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posted 16 years ago

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Ringer's directions say to water the grass to activate the fertilizer, and to keep the grass moist for the next few days. Is this really necessary? I'd prefer to be cheap and lazy when it comes to watering; however, I want good results from the application. Can I just plan on applying it when we are due for some rain?

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polyparadigm wrote:
Where excess nitrogen has killed a spot, how about driving wood a foot or so into the soil? Say, a couple pairs of used take-out chopsticks, spaced evenly and driven in flush with the soil or a little beyond. It would have some of the benefits of sawdust and of the post-hole method, with less work.

Bad idea?

I think that's a damn good idea. Or any sort of stick pounded in would be good too.

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Kip wrote:
Ringer's directions say to water the grass to activate the fertilizer, and to keep the grass moist for the next few days. Is this really necessary? I'd prefer to be cheap and lazy when it comes to watering; however, I want good results from the application. Can I just plan on applying it when we are due for some rain?

The only downside with not watering it right away that I can think of is: birds, cats, dogs, etc. will try to eat it. That first watering is gonna put a lot more into your soil than any later watering.

Putting it down when a rain is coming is a damn good idea.

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steve adams

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posted 15 years ago

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i have about 1/2 of an acre of lawn and would like to know if i can make my own fertilizer out of my own compost and how.

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posted 15 years ago

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i cant see why compost could not be mixed into a liquid type slurry and poured over lawn by bucket or water can with rose removed

Anyone who has never made a mistake
has never tried anything new
-ALBERT EINSTEIN-

Joel Hollingsworth

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posted 15 years ago

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steve adams wrote:
i have about 1/2 of an acre of lawn and would like to know if i can make my own fertilizer out of my own compost and how.

Your own compost could definitely help your lawn.

Could you be more specific as to what you mean by "make...fertilizer out of...compost"? I could see your question being the sort that Bird answered above, or a question about how to produce finished compost of the sort that can be spread directly on a lawn, or a different question entirely.

I've seen "compost" in some sources being used to mean raw waste that has not decomposed, while other sources use that word to mean only the completely finished humus that has been sifted from an old compost pile, and still others seem to use it to mean the substance that makes up a pile during the decomposition process. Most seem to use the term for some combination of these three meanings.

steve adams

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posted 15 years ago

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Joel Hollingsworth wrote:
Your own compost could definitely help your lawn.

Could you be more specific as to what you mean by "make...fertilizer out of...compost"? I could see your question being the sort that Bird answered above, or a question about how to produce finished compost of the sort that can be spread directly on a lawn, or a different question entirely.

I've seen "compost" in some sources being used to mean raw waste that has not decomposed, while other sources use that word to mean only the completely finished humus that has been sifted from an old compost pile, and still others seem to use it to mean the substance that makes up a pile during the decomposition process. Most seem to use the term for some combination of these three meanings.

steve adams

Posts: 5

posted 15 years ago

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Joel Hollingsworth wrote:
Your own compost could definitely help your lawn.

Could you be more specific as to what you mean by "make...fertilizer out of...compost"? I could see your question being the sort that Bird answered above, or a question about how to produce finished compost of the sort that can be spread directly on a lawn, or a different question entirely.

I've seen "compost" in some sources being used to mean raw waste that has not decomposed, while other sources use that word to mean only the completely finished humus that has been sifted from an old compost pile, and still others seem to use it to mean the substance that makes up a pile during the decomposition process. Most seem to use the term for some combination of these three meanings.

i have been saving all my leaves and grass clippings in a revine behind my house for 10 yrs now. i put some on my garden(it really works good) but i saw on tv where you can lidquidfy it some way and spray it on your lawn instead of commercial fertalizers

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