shallow roots [expired]

This is loosely based on deep roots. I get the impression that a lot of folks very much wish to do deep roots, but cannot afford it yet.

At the same time, I remember a few years ago having powerful permaculture passions and needing a place to express my permaculture vision. And I didn't have enough money to buy land. I also could not find a solution.

The idea here is, a chance to try. A chance to start. A chance to experiment with permaculture. A chance to experiment with homesteading. A chance to see if you have what it takes to get started.

In three years can you build yourself a humble home and live comfortably off the land?

Maybe during that three years, enough industry has been built to convert shallow roots to deep roots. Maybe enough industry has been built to get another three years.



FAQ:

Q: Can I pay now and start the three years later?

A: Yes, up to one year. This may be wise because the price for shallow roots will be going up frequently. So you can buy in when it is cheaper and take advantage of it at a time when it would cost more.


Q: Can my shallow roots be upgraded to deep roots?

A: If your post is not yet in the ground, then yes. If you are less than three years in, then what is left can be applied to deep roots.


Q: Is this a lease?

A: No. This arrangement can be ended at any time by any party.


Q: If I decide to leave, what would I get back?

A: When the post goes into the ground, there will be a document to sign which will spell out what would be returned at what point. At this point in time, if somebody put a post in the ground today for $3000, then the document would say something like $400 for the rest of 2014, $1000 for 2015, $1200 for 2016 and $400 up through April 21, 2017. And then if that somebody left on, say August 8th, 2016, then they would get back $877.


Q: I know that for deep roots, people have to have listened to at least 90% of the podcasts. How many do I have to listen to for shallow roots.

A: At least 90%. I think that willingly listening to 90% of the podcasts reduces conflict and also makes it so that the vision of a shallow roots person is within my comfort zone.


Q: After the three years is up, will the next three years be the same price?

A: No. It will probably be much higher. When you look at the deep roots schedule, you see that the prices go up a lot. This has to do with building significant infrastructure. We think that as this project progresses, the value of the land will increase. The corollary is that in the beginning, everything is much harder - so we want to make it easier for the folks that will have it harder.

Q: Why are some shallow roots packages more expensive even though they are the same size?

A: The regular package is where you can put a post in the ground anywhere. The less expensive packages have limitations on where the post can be placed.


Q: Is the laboratory mortgage free?

A: Yes.


Q: If I build a big, fancy house, and big, fancy gardens and ponds and stuff - will you buy that from me when I leave?

A: No. When you build those things, you must build them with the idea that everything you build will be left to me when you leave. Of course, the thing we are both hoping for is that this will end up being a very long term positive relationship. Further, with good practices, it is probably the case that the things built were with my soil, trees and possibly even some of my tools. Further, this opportunity is being provided dirt cheap in the hopes that the collective can move forward in a much greater project. I suppose if this were some sort of program where people could flip property or sell what they have created, then more would have been charged for the shallow roots program. And finally, it is possible that a person could be interested in a roots package, and would be willing to pay something for your post in the ground (instead of having to put their post somewhere else).


Q: Will I have access to tools and materials?

A: Maybe. Since everything you create is, technically, mine, it behooves me to want to help out in the materials and tools space. I cannot make any obligations, but I am willing to say it is possible. If a person wants to create something that seems cool to me, I am more likely to provide tools and materials. If a person wants to create something that seems silly to me, then I am less likely to provide tools and materials. Plus there would be issues of availability and experience with this sort of thing.


Q: I can pull off paying for shallow roots, but just barely. And my garden probably won't produce a lot the first month. Any chance of getting a bit of food in the beginning?

A: Some folks have talked about being part of our gapper program and doing shallow roots. Gappers are invited to my table. These folks plan on putting in hours for the gapper program and then hours for their own stuff.

$3500 for one acre anywhere on the laboratory.

$2000 for one acre anywhere on oehla section (the first section of the laboratory) or basecamp.

Current approximate schedule for $3500 ($2000) is:

Year 1: $1000 ($600)
Year 2: $1200 ($650)
Year 3: $1300 ($750)

Trying to make sure I understand the differences between deep and shallow roots...
1) deep roots gets you 2 acres to work with, and shallow roots gets only one acre
2) deep roots can stay indefinitely without paying any more $, but shallow roots can only stay 3 years and then must pay more if they want to stay longer

Did I get these right? Are there other differences I overlooked?

Allison Gessner wrote:
1) deep roots gets you 2 acres to work with, and shallow roots gets only one acre

Nope. For a while, a person could get two acres, now they get one acre.

Allison Gessner wrote:
2) deep roots can stay indefinitely without paying any more $, but shallow roots can only stay 3 years and then must pay more if they want to stay longer

Pretty much.

"$2000 for one acre anywhere on oehla section (the first section of the laboratory) or basecamp."

Is this still an option?
And to clarify with the updated gapper things and all...

Someone could do shallow roots *and* be a gapper ((ie: work on projects etc and be in on meals but personal time can go to building etc on your own shallow roots spot))?

Could someone say have savings etc aside and do shallow roots ((ie: pretty much 3yr paid rent and paul doesnt have to feed you or pay for your tool burn etc, you do your own permie stuff on your spot and come chill with the gappers and all as wanted and show off what your projects are))?

Thats kind of the distinction i am wondering on at the moment.

kadence blevins wrote:"$2000 for one acre anywhere on oehla section (the first section of the laboratory) or basecamp."

Is this still an option?

Yes.

kadence blevins wrote:
Someone could do shallow roots *and* be a gapper ((ie: work on projects etc and be in on meals but personal time can go to building etc on your own shallow roots spot))?

Yes again!

We look forward to having people here who are interested in more long-term situations like this.

I am havin a few troubles pinning things down but my current idea is do a gapper+shallow roots type and once i get my shelter/simple building in i could move a bit more from gapper to just shallow roots. Currently i have the $2000 holed away for shallow roots. But its workin out everythin else now. Kickstarter i have rough drafted but havent been able to manage to shine it up from my phone net /: Curses if i could just snag some wifi on the laptop for a couple hours! Haha.

I hope I am posting this in the right place....

I am very interested in this project. So much so that I have started detaching myself from my life here in California, hoping to be in Missioula in a year or two. After perusing the forums and pod-casts in what can safely be called a random order, I am missing a few key pieces of info, so I have a couple of questions.

1. I have a part time job that will allow for telecommuting in the evenings, but this requires internet. I have seen you mention there is internet at the lab and since you have a strong web presence, I assume it is stable and fairly decent bandwidth. Is your wifi available to ant/shallow/deep? I would like more information on internet options as I may have to get my own internet before settling in.

2. Are you allowing tiny houses on trailers as a suitable form of housing? Mine is almost finished. It is off grid, solar and denatured alcohol stove. Until I get a rocket stove set up I would have propane for hot water, but I very much want to get away from that and use more renewable sources. This would allow me to focus on infrastructure and less on housing. And yes I understand this would make me ineligible for the "challenge".

3. My nephew would describe me as old, fat and broken. While not an invalid I am definitely not as physically able as I once was. Is this an issue? I was planning on hiring/feeding gappers or other ants for the stuff I physically can't do.

4. Do you currently have sheep or the infrastructure to have sheep? I ask because I have an unhealthy obsession with fiber arts. I spin, dye and weave. (I also own a viking warp weighted loom) So sheep are high on my goal list.

I think that covers my basics for now. I appreciate the input.

Krista Marie Schaus wrote:I hope I am posting this in the right place....

Yes, this is perfect! Welcome to the forums and I'm so glad you asked these questions here.

Krista Marie Schaus wrote:1. I have a part time job that will allow for telecommuting in the evenings, but this requires internet. I have seen you mention there is internet at the lab and since you have a strong web presence, I assume it is stable and fairly decent bandwidth. Is your wifi available to ant/shallow/deep? I would like more information on internet options as I may have to get my own internet before settling in.

wheaton labs is actually two properties: base camp and the laboratory.
base camp is on-grid, and has excellent internet and wifi. This available to all residents, whether ants, deep roots, shallow roots, gappers, etc.
the laboratory is OFF-grid, but does get some cell service there. Some folks use the data plan on their cell phones to access the internet at the lab.

Krista Marie Schaus wrote:2. Are you allowing tiny houses on trailers as a suitable form of housing? Mine is almost finished. It is off grid, solar and denatured alcohol stove. Until I get a rocket stove set up I would have propane for hot water, but I very much want to get away from that and use more renewable sources. This would allow me to focus on infrastructure and less on housing. And yes I understand this would make me ineligible for the "challenge".

base camp would allow a tiny house on a trailer, but I don't think it would be allowed on the lab. I think Paul's goal is for any structures on the lab to be basically camouflaged from aerial/satellite photographs.

Krista Marie Schaus wrote:3. My nephew would describe me as old, fat and broken. While not an invalid I am definitely not as physically able as I once was. Is this an issue? I was planning on hiring/feeding gappers or other ants for the stuff I physically can't do.

Goodness, such a nephew! I don't think this has to be an issue, though I should explain that base camp is a hilly rock, and our residents (especially gappers) do tend to come and go, though we hope to have more long-term people as we go/grow. So hiring should be fine, if there are folks here to hire. And depending on where you might locate your house at base camp, there could be more or less of a hilly path to gardens, a favorite sit spot, the mail, or things like that.

Krista Marie Schaus wrote:4. Do you currently have sheep or the infrastructure to have sheep? I ask because I have an unhealthy obsession with fiber arts. I spin, dye and weave. (I also own a viking warp weighted loom) So sheep are high on my goal list.

Well, not exactly. When Paul's brother Tim was here, he kept cows, pigs, chickens and goats on the lab using portable electric fencing. There were no permanent paddocks built or left behind when he moved out this spring. Here at base camp, we just fenced in one paddock. Paul is a HUGE advocate of paddock shift livestock management, which means one paddock is not enough, so there is much still to be done. We have a gapper coming who might be almost as interested in fiber arts and sheep as you are, so there could be some happy alliances in this space.

We are still working on loads and loads of infrastructure: construction things (the wofatis on the lab, poopers, showers, rocket mass heaters, etc.), equipment issues, and people systems and visitors have taken up the vast majority of our first 20 months here. We still have a long way to go with paddocks, food systems and animal systems.

I hope those answers help. Let me know if you have more questions!

Perfect. Thank you so much for answering my questions! Now I can start making a more permanent plan.

Apples for you Jocelyn! Good answers!

Roots at basecamp is less expensive than roots on the lab. We will be putting a road in at basecamp that will give us better access to the upper land bits - as well as act as a "paddock shift alley".

In another thread, kadence asked:

Is basecamp still open for shallow roots spots?

Yes.

Is the pricing still the same as posted in the shallow roots thread?

Yes.

I want to clarify (for people nagging at me) that this is the price paid all at once for the whole 3yrs?

There price is still:

$3500 for one acre anywhere on the laboratory.

$2000 for one acre anywhere on oehla section (the first section of the laboratory) or basecamp.

How would it work to sell the improvements to 'the spot' if person decides/needs to move?

You find a buyer and you sell it, the deed is done.

Of course, if we are parting ways in any way other than a lovely fashion, then all of the improvements belong to me.

Do you have any musts for animals raised on the first section of the lab and basecamp?
Like must be no gmo/organic feed if bought etc?

Yes.

Any imported feed must be organic or better.

I have a lot to say about what I am comfortable about in this space. Most of it is covered in the podcasts.

If someone gets a spot at basecamp what is the water situation there for people?

At this moment there is water from a well. The well provides about 300 gallons per day.

Adding in some pictures of the lab and base camp from the gapper program 2.0 thread.

The lab has deep soils and more lush forest growth. This is the tipi in the 'dances with pigs meadow,' the first summer on the land (2013):



This is a scene at base camp when the growies were dormant (not so green) and yet you can tell base camp is a different environment. (Plus, this is just a rockin' picture of Emily at work!)



For those who might be new to paul's stuff, here's a quick summary of some other important details.

Paul’s project is an independent-consensus-dictator hybrid which is very different from many intentional communities. See also the permies independent-consensus-dictator thread, and the intentional community podcast for more details on community at paul’s project.

The ultimate goal is the least toxins possible. base camp and the lab will have differing levels of what and where plastics, paint or other toxins will be allowed. More on this at the discussion about the four pieces at the laboratory (including the oehla section mentioned above) and in paul’s story/fiction called husp.

In light of the changes being made to the ant program, will there be any changes made to shallow roots? Also Paul mentioned that the price will be changing as more infrastructure is added, is there an expected price adjustment for 2016?

Inquiring minds want to know.....

Krista

At this moment, I will continue to honor the shallow roots prices till further notice.

I suppose an important difference is that an ant village person will have a plot that is restricted by one of the ant village plots. Shallow roots is far more open.

Another thing to keep in mind is that shallow roots at basecamp is now more attractive since volcano road has been completed.

There are only four more ant village spots left and I suspect that they will all four be taken within a month or two.

Hello there!  Three things:

1) As this is my first post, I just want to say how much I appreciate this website and all you lovely folks who contribute to it.  You've been an invaluable resource and inspiration over the years.  Thank you, thank you!  

2) I'll briefly introduce myself.  My name is Megan, and I've been working on farms (some of which were permaculturally aligned, some not) and gardening for most of the last six years, learning and laughing and working hard along the way.  I think permaculture is really important. I think it is fun.  Which brings me to...
 
3) I'm so excited about the work being done at the Lab!  I want to be a part of it.  I'd like to come as a gapper or boot.  Then, if it turns out to be good fit, I'm interested in doing shallow roots (or Ant village if spots are open when I get there).  I have questions about timing.  I realize it's a long way off, but I'm​ unwilling to move until after this growing season.  Could I come as a gapper (or boot if that's going on) right after Christmas with a mind toward picking a shallow roots (or Ant) plot in early spring?  It seems to me this would be okay based on what I've read in the forums, but I could be wrong and want to check in.

Wow, dust the cobwebs off of this thread!

You can certainly come as a gapper at any time.  I suspect that the accommodations for a boot might be a lot better, but maybe the ants will create some excellent gapper habitat this year!  

You are welcome to come as a boot at any time, as long as we have openings.  

Could I fork over $3600 (gapper + shallow roots) now to lock in the cost?  

Yes.  Although you do need to have listened to at least 200 of my podcasts before you can select a spot.  You might want to see if you can endure the podcasts first.

Hello Paul, Jocelyn, or whomsoever might be disposed to respond,

I'm approaching the end of a graduate program in Chinese medicine.  I am currently brainstorming prospective initial practice models and am curious if you might approve of a small, board-certified acupuncture, body work and herbal medicine practice in the context of the lab sites.
I am also an accomplished cook, and could offer a "form meets function" cuisine that is resource-adaptive, of gourmet standards and is adjustable anywhere from nutritionally excellent to directly medicinal.  What are your prospective interests in hiring kitchen help in 2019?

I shall be certified and licensed to work by summer of 2019.
My program title is masters of science in traditional Oriental Medicine, or MSTOM, at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, NY.

Thank you for any thoughts you may have,
Brian

Brian,

I hope that about four years from now, a person with your skills would be an excellent fit here.   For now, we are .... uh ....  "under construction".  

I suppose you could be part of the construction and get your gert on with growing a lot of the herbs that would be part of your practice.  

Basecamp is a place where you can have clients visit as often as you like.

Thank you, Paul.

I, too, have land that's in need of construction and hope to develop along parallel or convergent lines with Wheaton Labs.  I'd like to keep horizons open and would enjoy sustaining a casual dialogue.  I hope to demonstrate how ecological health directly and explicitly substantiates individual and social health.  Hopefully, I'll make it to one of your events in the near future.

For the nonce,
Thank you for such inspirational work!
Brian

Is shallow roots not happening any more or is there some other reason why this thread says it is "expired"?

Nobody has ever done it.  

I have lots and lots of people talking about it ....  and they have lots and lots of questions ...  and have taken up large tracts of my life.  

So I guess the whole project is a dud.  

At the same time, I very much like the idea that people get deep roots - either directly, or through the bootcamp.

I would say that this program has been fully replaced by ant village.

Thanks! I saw the Ant Village thread and then saw this one and got distracted without recognizing the similarities. It is kind of the same thing, isn't it? Has the ant village special been used up yet? I'm bouncing in my seat a little waiting for the podcasts to finish downloading. *sigh*