Grape vine trellis questions

Hi,

I am from Turkey, zone 9B. Last year we mowed to another city. We have a small garden which I turned it into vegitable garden with several raised bed.

In our former house we used to have two types of Georgian grapes (black and green). One of our Georgian friend brought them as several cuttings. She told us they were for wine. So I have no clue about their varieties. They hanging down on a long and high pergola I made. They were extremely vigorous and tasty.  As we moved in a rush and the season was not right for cuttings we could not take any cuttings. We learned the new owner had to chop them down during renovation. We managed to take a few flimsy sticks of the black type.   Somehow several of them have rooted and planning to plant them in ground this autumn.  In our new house there is also a wild green grape was planted. It has five very thick trunks, planted just next to high wall and trunks were merged with the wall. All leaves were looking sick. Obviously its roots are no longer able to develop due to the wall.  As I am no longer young to dig out and transplan such a giant mass, I tooks several cuttings from it and reduced it to single trunk. I do not know its variety either.

With a help of a blacksmith, I created a thick iron frame for trellissing. As the space dictates this frame is not matching the conventional vine trellis.  We erected 5 frame poles, creating 4 sections. Each section is 190 cm (apprx: 6.2 feet) and total width is 8meters (apprx 26 feet).   These pole frames are 1 m (apprx. 3.2 feet) away from the wall. As we had to weld the top of the frame to a metal fence over the wall its height is 3m (almost 10 feet).

My plan is to plant two grapes of the same type side by side in the center of each section and train them into form two layers of cordonds each one. Cordons of one will go left and the other to right. The shoots of the existing wild grape had already reach the top of the frames. I will train total of 4 shoots to become cordons on the top of the frame  direct two to left and two to right. Its grapes will be hanging down just like my old pergola setup.

Now my questions.
1- As I do not know the varieties of them, I can not estimate if the new shoots will tend to go up or down. I will put  4 levels of  thick wire between poles. Thus each can act as cordon wire. The lowest one will be at 1 m height (3.2 feet). I will try to train the wines to form cordons over the 1st and 3rd wires and 2nd and 4th wires will act as catch wires. If the shoots tend to go downward I may be able to train new cordons over 2nd and 4th wires next year. Does this make sense?

2- My original plan was to tie seperate wires between each section and have their own turnbuckles to adjust their tension. We have a very deep economic crisis in the country. I am trying the keep the budget as low as possible. Also save myself from additional work. Now I am considering to one single wire and one larger turnbuckle per wire level. Considering the width (8 m or 26feet). Can that be sufficient?


Thanks

Welcome to the forum.

When we had our homestead we had two kinds of grapes, one green and one purple.

We never trellis our grapes so I can't help with that questions.

Anne Miller wrote: We never trellis our grapes so I can't help with that questions.

Thanks.

I hate any kind of vining plant especially in a small garden like ours to let them do their own things. It is to much mess for me. So I try to train them right from the start.

I grew a few Georgian grape varieties years ago and they really are vigorous, those things will take over if you let them. For a small garden a single wire trellis at about 1.5m height works well and keeps things manageable. The key is being ruthless with winter pruning, cutting back to just a few buds on each spur, otherwise you end up with a tangled mess by midsummer. Since yours are cuttings from an unknown variety I'd start with a simple vertical shoot positioning setup and see how they respond before committing to anything permanent.

Joao Winckler wrote: Since yours are cuttings from an unknown variety I'd start with a simple vertical shoot positioning setup and see how they respond before committing to anything permanent.

Thanks.
This is the reason I am trying to make the trellis as versatile as possible to be able to revert back to plan B.

Meanwhile I am not sure If a single wire will be sufficient as you mentioned. I remember those black grapes cuttings had climbed upto third floor around the house while waiting for me to build that pergola in their pots only in one season. Their yield were also unmanagebale for us as our sons were toddlers and consume them all back then. We were too busy with our daily jobs and boys to turn them in to wine. All our neighbours were reciving grape gift baskets every week. =) That is why I was thinking two layers of cordons. Anyway, It will take a few seasons for them to be established to for the second cordon. As long as the trellis be ready, I may decide based on their progress as you said.

Taylan Benker wrote:...
2- My original plan was to tie separate wires between each section and have their own turnbuckles to adjust their tension. We have a very deep economic crisis in the country. I am trying the keep the budget as low as possible. Also save myself from additional work. Now I am considering to one single wire and one larger turnbuckle per wire level. Considering the width (8 m or 26feet). Can that be sufficient?

From my experience with turnbuckles and wires... others may have different experiences.
A) The longer the wire, the higher gauge it needs to be. Normally, I use clothesline wire, which can handle that length for laundry, but grapevines are strong and heavy. If you support the wire at each upright it crosses, that may balance out that part of the issue.

B) You will need a much beefier turn-buckle for the longer wire than you would for shorter ones. I've had the hook end of turnbuckles bend straight in heavy duty situations.

C) Are you aware that there are two different styles of hardware for making the loops on the ends of wires?
One style is "use once" and you crimp a shaped piece of metal with pliers. We've both had those fail, and had to deal with needing to remove them which is difficult to do.
The other style is a U shaped piece that slides into a saddle shaped piece and there are two tiny nuts that thread onto the end of the U ends which are threaded to accept them. These can be removed, adjusted etc, but I'd put a good grease on the threads during assembly. Some of those tiny nuts have uncommon threads on them, so putting down a tarp to catch a dropped one is a *really good idea* (can you guess I've had issues in the past?) If you can afford this style, I would recommend it. The longer the wire, the more likely it will stretch over time, so being able to adjust the loop as well as the turnbuckle, seems like good back up planning. (Been there, done that...)

This is the sort I'm recommending. There's a "right way" to install them, which is easy to find on the web - the side the tail goes:



This is the sort I would only use if I couldn't find the ones above. They do the job, but have downsides.


If you know all this, no problem - there will be many other permies reading this who might not have met these fasteners or tried to use them.

Jay Angler wrote:
If you can afford this style, I would recommend it. The longer the wire, the more likely it will stretch over time, so being able to adjust the loop as well as the turnbuckle, seems like good back up planning. (Been there, done that...) This is the sort I'm recommending. There's a "right way" to install them, which is easy to find on the web - the side the tail goes:

Thanks for the reply.  
It is getting harder to find things in our country. Average consumer products are almost none existing and only industrial ones are available. Pro versions of both style available but that ring requires a special pair of pliers which costs arms and legs for me. I also could not trust if it would hold or not. I was thinking of the one you primerily recomended. Not cheap per piece but even two dozen of them cost only a fraction of the specialized plier and rings.  Retighting option you mentioned sounds also a plus.

The are various gauges of galvinized steel wires available for industrial producers. I have no experience with them and I can not estimate how much they will sag.  If I take the single wire with single turnbuckle route I will run the wire through that birdeye loop screws to support the middle sections.

Our village farmers are still using the ancient methods and when I  ask the salers of those products they keep recommending things as if I will be starting a vineyard of 1000 grape plants. No experience in between here.  So any information you provide is very valuable for me.

Taylan Benker wrote:Hi,

I am from Turkey, zone 9B. Last year we mowed to another city. We have a small garden which I turned it into vegitable garden with several raised bed.

In our former house we used to have two types of Georgian grapes (black and green). One of our Georgian friend brought them as several cuttings. She told us they were for wine. So I have no clue about their varieties. They hanging down on a long and high pergola I made. They were extremely vigorous and tasty.  As we moved in a rush and the season was not right for cuttings we could not take any cuttings. We learned the new owner had to chop them down during renovation. We managed to take a few flimsy sticks of the black type.   Somehow several of them have rooted and planning to plant them in ground this autumn.  In our new house there is also a wild green grape was planted. It has five very thick trunks, planted just next to high wall and trunks were merged with the wall. All leaves were looking sick. Obviously its roots are no longer able to develop due to the wall.  As I am no longer young to dig out and transplan such a giant mass, I tooks several cuttings from it and reduced it to single trunk. I do not know its variety either.

With a help of a blacksmith, I created a thick iron frame for trellissing. As the space dictates this frame is not matching the conventional vine trellis.  We erected 5 frame poles, creating 4 sections. Each section is 190 cm (apprx: 6.2 feet) and total width is 8meters (apprx 26 feet).   These pole frames are 1 m (apprx. 3.2 feet) away from the wall. As we had to weld the top of the frame to a metal fence over the wall its height is 3m (almost 10 feet).

My plan is to plant two grapes of the same type side by side in the center of each section and train them into form two layers of cordonds each one. Cordons of one will go left and the other to right. The shoots of the existing wild grape had already reach the top of the frames. I will train total of 4 shoots to become cordons on the top of the frame  direct two to left and two to right. Its grapes will be hanging down just like my old pergola setup.

Now my questions.
1- As I do not know the varieties of them, I can not estimate if the new shoots will tend to go up or down. I will put  4 levels of  thick wire between poles. Thus each can act as cordon wire. The lowest one will be at 1 m height (3.2 feet). I will try to train the wines to form cordons over the 1st and 3rd wires and 2nd and 4th wires will act as catch wires. If the shoots tend to go downward I may be able to train new cordons over 2nd and 4th wires next year. Does this make sense?

2- My original plan was to tie seperate wires between each section and have their own turnbuckles to adjust their tension. We have a very deep economic crisis in the country. I am trying the keep the budget as low as possible. Also save myself from additional work. Now I am considering to one single wire and one larger turnbuckle per wire level. Considering the width (8 m or 26feet). Can that be sufficient?


Thanks

Your setup sounds very well thought out, and it is impressive that you managed to preserve those old Georgian grape vines from cuttings. Losing established vines is always frustrating, especially when you don’t know the variety, but keeping even a few rooted cuttings was a great save.

For your questions:

1. Training system and uncertainty about growth habit

Yes, your plan makes sense. Since the varieties are unknown, using a flexible trellis system is a smart approach. Most table and wine grapes can be trained successfully in multiple ways, and you can adjust after seeing how the shoots behave.

A few points to consider:

Young vines usually grow upward first because of apical dominance. As they mature and become established on the cordons, the fruiting shoots will generally grow upward and outward naturally, but some varieties have more drooping growth habits.
Having four wire levels gives you plenty of options. Training cordons on the 1st and 3rd wires initially is reasonable, while keeping the 2nd and 4th wires as support wires.
If the vine shows a strong downward-hanging habit like your old pergola grapes, you can gradually train the fruiting arms higher and allow the shoots to hang naturally.
Avoid forcing young shoots too aggressively. It is better to select strong shoots and guide them gradually rather than bending thick, mature wood later.

One thing I would consider: 3 meters (10 feet) is quite high. It will look beautiful, but harvesting and pruning at that height may become difficult. Since you are already planning hanging clusters, make sure you can comfortably reach the fruiting zone with a ladder.

2. One continuous wire vs individual wires with turnbuckles

For an 8-meter (26-foot) span, a single continuous wire can work if you use a strong enough wire and proper anchoring.

A few suggestions:

Use high tensile galvanized vineyard wire if available. Regular fencing wire may stretch too much over time.
A single turnbuckle per level at the end of the entire 8-meter run should be enough if the intermediate posts are strong and the wire is properly attached.
The middle posts will help prevent excessive sag. With five poles creating four sections, your longest unsupported span is only about 1.9 meters (6.2 feet), which is actually very manageable.
Individual turnbuckles for every section would give better control, but for a home garden they are probably unnecessary and add cost and maintenance.

The bigger concern is not the wire tension but the weight of mature vines. A vigorous grapevine can become extremely heavy when fully leafed out and carrying fruit. Your welded frame sounds strong, but make sure the posts are anchored well, especially because the vines will act like a sail in strong winds.

A few additional thoughts:

Since your wild green grape was struggling against the wall, reducing it to one trunk was probably the right move. Give it a year or two to rebuild its root-to-shoot balance.
Do not overcrop the new rooted cuttings in the first years. Let them establish strong permanent trunks and cordons first.
Keep records of which vine produces the best fruit. Unknown varieties sometimes turn out to be excellent local selections.

Overall, your design is actually closer to a modified pergola/cordon system rather than a conventional vineyard trellis, and for a home garden in zone 9B it should work very well. The flexibility you built into the frame will allow you to adapt once you see how each grape grows.

Thanks for the encouring reply Cindy,

When I first saw that wild grape for the first time, my initial thought was to remove it all togather or transplant it some where else after I guarranteed its cuttings are healthy. As all the cuttings are in pots waiting for autumn, I was using their space to grow my hot peppers. The sun here is very hot even for hot peppers. So I spread the many long shoots that reached the top like a shade cloth. After that I decided to try to train it this way.  As the poles are 1 m away from the wall sun is coming from the opposite side, it will not shade the vines on trellis.  So I am not worried about it. On the other hand; 3 meters  is indeed high for comfortable harvesting of grapes. The garden is below the street level and that wall is there to protect erosion from the street. There is iron fences over that wall but the leaves of it can easily be picked from the street side. It is leaves are thin and juicy, perfect for stuffed vine rolls. We will see how it will turned out if it will worth the effort.

Taylan Benker wrote:

Anne Miller wrote: We never trellis our grapes so I can't help with that questions.

Thanks.

I hate any kind of vining plant especially in a small garden like ours to let them do their own things. It is to much mess for me. So I try to train them right from the start.

Did you know that grapes can be trained without a trellis?

Use a 5' stake then remove lower shoots, and allow 3 to 4 branches to form at the top to create a self-supporting, goblet-shaped bush

Anne Miller wrote:

Did you know that grapes can be trained without a trellis?

Use a 5' stake then remove lower shoots, and allow 3 to 4 branches to form at the top to create a self-supporting, goblet-shaped bush

+1 on this. The method to make grape vines freestanding is called Head Pruning (or Bush Training). It trains the vine to grow as an unsupported, self-standing bush rather than relying on a trellis.

Your production will be diminished by this method but after trying a few different trellis options, getting rid of the trellis altogether is working great for us.