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Ontario Permies?

Posts: 75

Location: Ontario, Canada (44.265475, -77.960029)

posted 13 years ago

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Travis Philp wrote:
I wanted to let people know that I'm holding garden tours and horse demonstrations on October 15th. I posted another thread about it in this section of the forums if you're interested in the details. Hope to see you there!

Hi Travis,

Many thanks for the personal tour. Joyce and I enjoyed it greatly. You've made a great start. It's already easy to see what it's going to look like in a year or two. Looking forward to swapping resources and the continuation of idea swapping.

Regards,
Mike

Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.

Travis Philp

gardener

Posts: 965

Location: ZONE 5a Lindsay Ontario Canada

posted 13 years ago

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Hey Mike,

Odd, I never got a notice that you replied. You and Joyce are very welcome for the tour, it was my pleasure. I'm really glad you two came out, and found it worthwhile.

We're having another set of tours this saturday the 29th if you know of anyone else who'd be interested.

http://www.greenshireecofarms.com
Zone 5a in Central Ontario, Canada

Fred Walter

Posts: 43

Location: Near Beaver Valley, Ontario, Canada

posted 13 years ago

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My wife and I and our 2 sons (2.5yo and 4yo) live in Southwestern Ontario (outside Markdale) on 99 acres. We've been experimenting with various methods of gardening, and this summer we built a chicken coop (10 layers+1 rooster to keep them happy), and planted a bunch of trees, fruit trees, bushes and berry bushes of various sorts.

Tracy Taylor

Posts: 4

posted 13 years ago

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Be True Farm

is located in Thessalon, Ontario (1 hour east of Sault Ste Marie). We are a couple of blue collar seventies kids trying to raise our kids to be conscious, contributing and generally happy people. In the meantime we struggle to survive financially and dream of living and working on the land every day. The plus side is that when we are home (usually one of us is home) we have 320 acres to explore and dream within. We hope to one day share some of this land and we are looking for people with the same kind ideals and work ethics who are struggling to find land and community.

I just found this forum and I am not sure we would be considered hardcore "permies" but I think our ideas align somewhat. I am learning a lot about permaculture and I appreciate the dialogues. I will try to contribute when I have something useful to share. Thanks for reading.

David Bates

Posts: 79

Location: Mountain Grove, Ontario, Canada

posted 13 years ago

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Hi. I'm David a hermit living in a small beach community outside of Ottawa, Constance Bay. Next spring I am moving with Lucinda to our 30 acres of shield and swamp near Mountain Grove, Ontari-ari-ari-o.

When we get there we plan to avoid starving to death by growing our own food. After that we'll see

much of what my neighbours consider to be good I consider to be bad

Chris Kott

pollinator

Posts: 3847

Location: Marmora, Ontario

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posted 12 years ago

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Hello Ontario!

My name is Chris Kott, and I am a singer and a writer living in Toronto and working in Mississauga at the family bindery. Incidentally, we do everything, sorry to plug work, but we would be happy to handle any print projects for a preferential rate to any permies who mention my posting, and I would be happy to tailor any projects for eco-friendliness. I would love to help anyone working on permaculture or sustainability self-publication because I see it as crucial to the furtherance of permaculture and sustainability in the social consiousness.

I am looking for acreage, ideally in southern/central ontario, for permaculture purposes. Hundreds of acres of oak savannah less than two hours from Mississauga would be perfect, but I'll take what I can get. What I really need is a vendor willing to sell privately with nothing down, or for a Vendor takeback mortgage, or, frankly, any way I can of buying as much property as I can get in a suitable location with nothing more than payments of about $1000 a month. If anyone has ideas or can help directly, I'd be much obliged.

I envision a property incorporating food forests, paddocked pasturage for livestock in all niches, aquaculture, apiary, and several alternative structures. I would like to open a functional "modern farm" for tours to the public to offset costs, but mostly to inform, and if I can get some accredited permies on site, maybe some education. I don't know if my interpretation is completely correct as I am still reading and learning, but I think this type of work is imperative. I also think it crucial that these types of projects be created, documented, and shown to perform well financially. If it makes money, and more money than any landed poor farmer in debt to their eyeballs could well imagine, it will proliferate, from backyards to hobby farms, to thousand-acre production facilities, or as large as we can scale webs of interdependent ecologies.

I hope, as well, to find like-minded individuals with applicable trades, skills, and interests. I believe Paul was saying this in one of his podcasts, but what I think would be ideal is to be able to set up a community to manage the project and to be able to benefit directly from it. Unlike Paul, however, I don't feel the need necessarily to rebrand the style of society as any kind of despotism, no matter how enlightened and benevolent the despot, unless its me ;p. What I don't get is why you'd choose any other system than direct democracy in settings of so few people. That way, I think it should be easy to integrate the unique municipal setting of the Farm into the existant governmental structure, so as to facilitate our changing of the country, nay, the world as a whole.

Sorry this has been so long and rambly, but I'm happy to discover permies, and how many of us there are here in the Great Green North. My best wishes for a long and prosperous association.

-CK

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Fred Walter

Posts: 43

Location: Near Beaver Valley, Ontario, Canada

posted 12 years ago

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Chris Kott wrote:payments of about $1000 a month

The mortgage rate calculate at http://www.ingdirect.ca/en/tools/calcs/Borrowing.html says that you'd be able to borrow around $200,000 for payments of around $1000/month, at the current mortgage rates.

Does that $1000/month include your property tax payments, and all the other payments that you'll have to make once you are a property owner?

What I don't get is why you'd choose any other system than direct democracy in settings of so few people.

I suggest reading the books by Diana Leafe Christian. She has a bunch of free info on her website http://www.dianaleafechristian.org

Bart Zed

Posts: 3

posted 12 years ago

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Enviroman Hatfield wrote:Anyone who is willing to travel to Montreal is willing to join a workshop in straw and clay building next spring.

I am very interested in such a workshop. Could you post some more info regarding exact dates, cost, location, etc.? Thank you.

Chris Kott

pollinator

Posts: 3847

Location: Marmora, Ontario

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posted 12 years ago

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Fred Walter wrote:The mortgage rate calculate at http://www.ingdirect.ca/en/tools/calcs/Borrowing.html says that you'd be able to borrow around $200,000 for payments of around $1000/month, at the current mortgage rates.

Does that $1000/month include your property tax payments, and all the other payments that you'll have to make once you are a property owner?

What I don't get is why you'd choose any other system than direct democracy in settings of so few people.

I suggest reading the books by Diana Leafe Christian. She has a bunch of free info on her website http://www.dianaleafechristian.org

As to the first, I was referring to payments made to an hypothetical property seller by me on a monthly basis, assuming that the rest of the costs are comparatively insignificant and that I can cover them with the rest of my income. Was that quote with any money down, or just the monthlies?

As to the second, I thank you for the referral, but what I've heard so far, admittedly through Paul's podcasts, doesn't interest me much. I'd rather have a property that's mine that I own, so I've admittedly already modified direct democracy a bit, but if we're dealing with a situation where we have only dozens, or even hundreds, of people to deal with, as opposed to thousands or more, everyone can have a say and be heard by their community, and as it's still democracy, we're not inventing new ways to do the same thing in a way that makes it more difficult to integrate with, and hence change, the rest of society at large. This was my point, along with the fact that, I don't remember who wrote it, but one of the big Greek philosophers suggested that their form of democracy would work, direct and not representative, with as many as three thousand people. Why make things difficult if it's only going to make new problems?

Fred Walter

Posts: 43

Location: Near Beaver Valley, Ontario, Canada

posted 12 years ago

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Chris Kott wrote:

Fred Walter wrote:The mortgage rate calculate at http://www.ingdirect.ca/en/tools/calcs/Borrowing.html says that you'd be able to borrow around $200,000 for payments of around $1000/month, at the current mortgage rates.

Does that $1000/month include your property tax payments, and all the other payments that you'll have to make once you are a property owner?

As to the first, I was referring to payments made to an hypothetical property seller by me on a monthly basis, assuming that the rest of the costs are comparatively insignificant and that I can cover them with the rest of my income.

The assumption that the rest of the costs are comparatively insignificant is... not valid in my experience.

Property taxes, house/fire/liability/mortgage insurance, maintenance costs - these add up quickly.

I suggest that you read some books on real estate, and real estate investing.

Was that quote with any money down, or just the monthlies?

The URL that I referenced answers all the questions that you could have, and more.

I suggest reading the books by Diana Leafe Christian. She has a bunch of free info on her website http://www.dianaleafechristian.org

I thank you for the referral, but what I've heard so far, admittedly through Paul's podcasts, doesn't interest me much.

Her books contain a wealth of information about other people's experiences of trying to live in intentional communities.

You can chose to learn from other people's experiences, or you can chose to not learn from their experiences, and run the risk of making the same mistakes that they've made.

I'd rather have a property that's mine that I own

From the dollar figures that you've given, you won't be owning the type of property for which you've expressed a desire. Unless you are buying a raw chunk of land, or the property is way up north.

$1000/month does not buy you much, especially if that figure includes the not-insignificant other costs that come with owning a property.

Chris Kott

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Location: Marmora, Ontario

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posted 12 years ago

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Thanks Fred.

Your financial direction is much appreciated. I don't know where you are looking at property prices, though. I found that I will need to save about $10000 to be realistic, but according to the information provided by the link you gave me, I can expect to be able to borrow around $170000, enough for any of a hundred properties in the central and southern parts of Ontario where I am looking. I will likely hop on the property ladder somewhere like Hamilton, where houses can be had for relatively cheap, and where there is some moderate likelihood of appreciation over time. My main stumbling block with regards to buying a plot of land is that such properties are handled a different way than one with a house on it which is a primary residence with all the urban amenities (I think they call them "Schedule B" or something). For those I need, from what I understand, fifty percent of the price of the land as downpayment in order to qualify for a mortgage.

If I can swing it, though, I've found a place for sale that's commuting distance to work and on just under four acres on the banks of the Grand River. I bet I can grow a small food forest and raise some forage-fed chickens, enough for my own consumption, anyway. It also happens to be within the northern reaches of the natural range of the American Chestnut before they were largely wiped out by blight. I was hoping to try some blight-resistant strains should I get the chance, and now I very well may.

As to Diana Leafe Christian, I have nothing much to say on the matter. Democracy seems to fail when the contrivances we put upon it strain our sense of how much our opinions matter. Remove those contrivances by keeping the group size manageable, and with a plan in place to handle the splitting-off of offspring communities, and the problems go away. Locking in to some notion that nothing can change unless everyone wills it to sounds foolish to me.

-CK

Fred Walter

Posts: 43

Location: Near Beaver Valley, Ontario, Canada

posted 12 years ago

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Chris Kott wrote:I don't know where you are looking at property prices

http://www.mls.ca

I found that I will need to save about $10000 to be realistic

$10000 down payment, with a total price of?

I can expect to be able to borrow around $170000, enough for any of a hundred properties in the central and southern parts of Ontario where I am looking

What real estate web site are you using? Are you looking for properties with some acreage, or just a house with minimal land?

Democracy seems to fail when the contrivances we put upon it strain our sense of how much our opinions matter.

None of the intentional communities that I know of, that are working, use (what I think of as) democracy.

Chris Kott

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Location: Marmora, Ontario

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posted 12 years ago

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Hi again,

Thanks for your interest, Fred. I typically search sub-$175000 on mls.ca, under residential with the acreage box ticked, under land, and under agriculture. Usually, if the offerings are too numerous, I tick the waterfront box as well. Admittedly, the most populous offerings are for undeveloped land in the geographic area roughly south to south-east of Algonquin Park. I find the land prices, except in exceptional cases (either more expensive because of favourable land features, or cut rate because of a preponderance of swamp), end up sitting around a thousand dollars an acre. There are other areas, but I think Haliburton and the Kawarthas strike the best balance between cost and optimal conditions for the types of activities in which I wish to engage.

As to the fact that no intentional communities of which you are aware make use of democracy, I would suggest that the fact that what big government uses is derived from it renders democracy impalatable to those who tend to make sweeping generalisations, both in type and in their own minds. When painting with such a broad brush, it is hard to critique a thing without vilifying it in its entirety, so weak is its position of debate. It's a simple case of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

But if I were to drop democracy, I would simply run any endeavour as a business. The farm would be mine, I would hire employees and pay them. The employees would make decisions at their level, and I would make them at mine. Any low-level problems would ideally be dealt with by those involved, and management would never hear of it, and any abuses of priviledge would be dealt with severely, as in any offending parties would be fired. Even if the social form was democratic, the business end of things would always be run as such, because if the farm went bankrupt, there would be no place for the community.

I intend no offense, and sarcasm doesn't really translate well to text, but I really think democracy on the small scale shouldn't be discounted because it shares a name with an unpopular representative form, and any experimental form of social jiggering will only result in a disconnection from larger communities, and a greater feeling of alienation from the rest of the country's populace, not to mention the advantage dishonest individuals tend to take with new social forms with which the rest of us may not be as familiar or comfortable.

And as to the intentional communities that you know of, how long has the oldest been in existence?

-CK

Fred Walter

Posts: 43

Location: Near Beaver Valley, Ontario, Canada

posted 12 years ago

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Chris Kott wrote:And as to the intentional communities that you know of, how long has the oldest been in existence?

Student housing cooperatives are long-lived. I was a member (and lived at) of WCRI for a number of years while I went to the University of Waterloo, and for a few years after I graduated.

http://www.wcri.coop/

I've also been keeping an eye on Whole Village. They've made a number of mistakes that they could have avoided, if Diana's books had been available when they formed.

http://wholevillage.org/

These are the closest intentional communities of any size, to South-Western Ontario, that I know of.

Chris Kott

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posted 12 years ago

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I will take a look, thanks Fred. I would be interested to know how successfully they manage to integrate their systems of local self-government with the greater whole that comprises the upper levels of government, through province to the federal level? My interest, apart from the necessity of getting people to get along together well enough to help eachother as a community, or several nested communities, depending on size, is to be able to accumulate, without pressuring people's individual political wills, both a unified political voice, and the political clout to seek the interests of the community within the larger world. This, as I write it, sounds at once naive and impossible, but how else does one both establish a system where people are enabled to take care of themselves and their community, and feel that within, if not without, that community they feel that they have had the chance to voice their opinion, to add to the discussion that determines the course of their lives?

-CK

Roman Milford

Posts: 24

posted 12 years ago

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Greetings to my fellow Ontarian permies.
We're recently transplanted from Toronto, now in the Niagara region. But our land is up in Prince Edward county, taking baby steps to setup a homestead there. Planted over 100 various nut trees last spring. Plans for this year include towing in a travel trailer for temporary accomodation while I build a 1812-style cabin. Also hoping to start some hugelkulter beds - no shortage of logs and mulch, but without a tractor it'll be slow hard work. The goal is to eventually be as off-the-grid and self-sufficient as possible, but trying to be realistic about that. Just a couple of years ago we were club kids in the richmond st. entertainment district!

Ed Johnson

Posts: 86

Location: Durham region - Ontario, Canada - Zone 5

posted 12 years ago

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R,
I''m in whitby. Where did you source your trees?

Roman Milford

Posts: 24

posted 12 years ago

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ontario McCoy wrote:R,
I''m in whitby. Where did you source your trees?

A nursery in Niagara-on-the-lake: http://www.grimonut.com/

Ed Johnson

Posts: 86

Location: Durham region - Ontario, Canada - Zone 5

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I picked up two chestnuts from them last summer. Good people.

http://www.nuttrees.com/index.htm I intend to checks these guys out this spring

Ed Johnson

Posts: 86

Location: Durham region - Ontario, Canada - Zone 5

posted 12 years ago

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http://www.greenbarnnursery.ca/Home.page permie oriented

Gregoire Lamoureux

Posts: 7

posted 12 years ago

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Greetings!
I will be co-teaching the Permaculture Design Course at the Whole Village in Caledon, ON
July 22nd - August 4th, 2012.
This will be our second annual PDC at the Whole Village. I have been teaching the Permaculture Design Course for 10 years in Ontario and across Canada since 1991.
For more infos or to sign up:

http://www.wholevillage.org/wvpages/wvpermcult.html
http://www.wholevillage.org/

Cheers!
Gregoire Lamoureux

Laura Jean Wilde

Posts: 86

Location: LAKE HURON SOUTHERN SHORE

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posted 12 years ago

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The Grimo's (Ernie and linda) are very nice and have a large selection of commercial nut trees. They have a Chinese-Black wlanut sport that is called a heartnut. We have quite a few of them and they have done well here. we got one nut last year from 7 year old trees Five years here as two year old seedlings. I will be incorporating a walnut guild around these trees this year and treating them as walnuts (juglans and all) any one with more experience, please let me know, otherwise i will keep you posted. Grimos also have some pawpaw and persimmons as well as commercial quality mulberrys. Ernie was a heavy chemical user but is starting to lean toward less chemical and more natural pest control etc. He is also a director on the board of the Society of Ontario Nut growers. Anyone interested in making nuts a primary product might be interested in joining.

Wilde on Turtle Island
Walk Gently on our Mother Earth

Chris Kott

pollinator

Posts: 3847

Location: Marmora, Ontario

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posted 12 years ago

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Laura Jean Wilde,

I was wondering if you had any information on walnut guilds, or what you were planning on doing. I think walnuts are invaluable as a prime source of most of the raw ingredients for acetylcholine (I hope I spelled that right), but the whole juglans allelopathy thing was always a stumbling block for me in incorporating walnuts into permaculture. Thanks.

-CK

Travis Philp

gardener

Posts: 965

Location: ZONE 5a Lindsay Ontario Canada

posted 12 years ago

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I don't have any experience with nut trees or guilds yet but will after this spring. We're getting an assortment of different types of trees from Grimo and Rhora's Nut nursery (almond, pecan, heartnut, sweet chestnut, hazelnut, persimmon, and korean pine). I intend to document the planting and growth progress and post on here.

Chris, there's a walnut guild thread on permies somewhere if I'm not mistaken. It should come up in a search.

http://www.greenshireecofarms.com
Zone 5a in Central Ontario, Canada

Lacy VanCam

Posts: 42

posted 12 years ago

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T.Joy what about Pelee Island? My small family (hubby and 2 kids) are working on getting land there, then developing it into a food forest farm. If you want more details, let me know.

Virginia Lee

Posts: 3

posted 12 years ago

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Hello, all.

I'm in Ontario's Garden, aka -- Norfolk County. How delighted I am to discover so many active participants here within our own province.

Wondering if anyone is going to the Guelph Organic Conference and Expo coming up Feb 2-3?

Looking forward to learning, sharing, and engaging.

Max Tanner

Posts: 92

Location: Ontario North and South - right now, moving North Permanently soon. Timmins Cochrane areas

posted 12 years ago

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Virginia, could you post more info on it please.

http://wildernessreturn.wordpress.com/
my wilderness return story and adveture

Virginia Lee

Posts: 3

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The conference website provides full event details, from exhibitors, various Meet and Greet opportunities, to seminar schedules.

www.guelphorganicconf.ca

Max Tanner

Posts: 92

Location: Ontario North and South - right now, moving North Permanently soon. Timmins Cochrane areas

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Thank you Virginia,
hopefully I will get my van back and be able to go, it was stolen last night while I watched a movie. Coldest night of the year, breathing issues wow my luck runeth over. But since it is close to my dreaded bday, dreaded because every year for 30 years the week before or after is deathly dramatic and nasty, for 30yrs straight! I don't care about the age thing, I care about the no luck thing.
Thanks for the info!

http://wildernessreturn.wordpress.com/
my wilderness return story and adveture

Travis Philp

gardener

Posts: 965

Location: ZONE 5a Lindsay Ontario Canada

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I was thinking of going there for saturday. It's nice to see more permaculture-based workshops!

On sunday in Toronto there's a free permaculture lecture series. Here's the facebook link: Free Permaculture Lecture Series

http://www.greenshireecofarms.com
Zone 5a in Central Ontario, Canada

Fallon Wilson

Posts: 39

Location: Sable River, Nova Scotia Canada

posted 11 years ago

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Hi peeps, we're new to the perma-culture idea but jumping in with both feet here in London, Ontario. Ive started a small aquaponics experiment in my dining room and so far have cucumbers and tomatoes sprouting over a 50Gl tank of guppies

We have built hugulkultur style garden boxes and naturalising our backyard where we have a Butternut tree under our watch and protection.

We'll be attending the lecture in Toronto and look forward to meeting others.

I am looking for an opportunity to learn more by living/working for an existing farmer/landowner with in Southern Ontario from London to anywhere north to Ottawa, Owen sound areas.

Tom Kozak

Posts: 109

Location: Sudbury ON, Canada

posted 11 years ago

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Hi all,
My fiancee and I are in our early 20s trying to figure out how we are possibly going to afford land! So, my questions for you are; How much land do you have? How much did you pay for it? and How on earth did you raise the money?
Thanks,

Jamie Jones

Posts: 4

posted 11 years ago

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Could anybody use some help from April 17 to May 19? I'm 19, a student in plant science, and looking to shift to learning permaculture! I'm very interested in food forests, especially. Please pm me

David Bates

Posts: 79

Location: Mountain Grove, Ontario, Canada

posted 11 years ago

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A place to stand,
A place to grow,
Ontari-airi-airi-oh!

I am in Ontario, mind you, Ontario is about seven times the size of most excited states

I am glad to see all these Thunder Bay, GTA and Essex County people here. Me myself, I am in Parham, near Kingston. We scratch our existence out of the Precambrian shield here. It's loverly.

- D

much of what my neighbours consider to be good I consider to be bad

Michael Lorne

Posts: 2

posted 11 years ago

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Greetings all, new user here from just south of Peterborough. Well, actually living north of Toronto, but we are moving to our new 15 acre homestead this summer.

I am a classical gardener/farmer having just recently discovered the world of permaculture. Our property suits itself well to some wonderful transformations and I look forward to sharing this experience with everyone.

Thanks,
Michael

Ed Johnson

Posts: 86

Location: Durham region - Ontario, Canada - Zone 5

posted 11 years ago

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Hey Micheal. How did you come upon your property? MLS seems very incomplete... I'm in the same area and looking for similar

Michael Lorne

Posts: 2

posted 11 years ago

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Ed Johnson wrote:Hey Micheal. How did you come upon your property? MLS seems very incomplete... I'm in the same area and looking for similar

We had been looking for a property for close to three years. We had put an offer on a property near Omemee but we would not come up far enough. (It sat on the market for 8 months and they ended up selling for our final offer). Our general requirements changed over the years as we refined what we wanted based on what we could afford and what was really usable. Finally settling on 15 acres was, in hindsight, hardly settling. Our original searches were in the 50-70 acre range: a very difficult range to find unless it is a working farm. Keep looking! And if you are going with an agent, let me know and I can suggest a few good rural specialists in that area.

One thing to be aware of: rural mortgage financing. It turns out that conventional mortgages will cover only the house and one or two acres. Everything else, you are on the hook for. We discovered this at the last minute and needed to scramble to come up with an additional $15,000 to cover the difference between the mortgage and the buying price. This is in addition to the $20,000 down payment that we scraped together. It was a real shock and could have been a real kick to the you-know-what.

In the end, it worked out better for us. We borrowed the money from my brother, and not wanting to be in debt to relatives forced us to pay off even earlier than we would have paid off a bank: $15,000 in two years. So now we have $15,000 in equity in addition to the mortgage pay-off equity.

Ed Johnson

Posts: 86

Location: Durham region - Ontario, Canada - Zone 5

posted 11 years ago

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Thanks for the heads-up on the rural mortgage, wasn't aware of that and I thought I'd looked into it...

Did you buy property with a house on it? I suspect yes from your post but want to confirm. I would really prefer to buy land and build something passive solar, it's significantly more difficult to finance that thought.

If you could let me know some good realtor names, I wouldn't mind trolling their sites.

cliff james

Posts: 4

Location: Brockville, ON, Canada

posted 11 years ago

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Hello,
Originally from ottawa. I live in brockville now, looking for land in the sharbot lake area. My wife and I have been preparing trying to get all the info we can (knowledge is power), It has been an adventure so far.

Zach Hartwell

Posts: 3

posted 10 years ago

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Is there anyone from Bruce County?

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