Reading the texts

Phuein wrote:
The only reason to think Permaculture won't catch the majority, is because it's rather new - and it's ideas, by the time they catch on, will have many different names. And that's not important. So im optimist about it

Yeah, true.  I think we're already seeing stuff from permaculture co-opted into the general culture under different colocations, such as "edible gardening," "edible landscaping," and the like.

One thing that would help, though, IMHO, would be for permaculturists to lay off a lot of the radical left-wing politics that unnecessarily alienates people we need to pay attention to us.  If you subscribe to the permaculture mailing list you'll see a lot of polemics about the murderous capitalists and Mid-East politics and the like which itself will not be 'sustainable' in the long run.

Robert Ray wrote:
Back to Wittgenstein....my box does include the reading of the texts.
What made you assume it did not?

Here is a proposal with Paul's forum we can create a multi authored text of PERMIE's own PDC manual.

With that a text would exist here and be available to all visitors and lurkers.

Sounds like a great idea to me.

bruc33ef wrote:

One thing that would help, though, IMHO, would be for permaculturists to lay off a lot of the radical left-wing politics that unnecessarily alienates people we need to pay attention to us.  If you subscribe to the permaculture mailing list you'll see a lot of polemics about the murderous capitalists and Mid-East politics and the like which itself will not be 'sustainable' in the long run.

boy I agree with this!

wyldthang wrote:
boy I agree with this!

I'll second that!

Yes, that!

and that includes cats (snort )

.... I was just helping the point on urban Permaculture honestly :+P I'm not a big fan of those odd vertical gardens. I've seen plenty of ways to grow food efficiently without going "that far". On the other hand, I might just not be enough of a dreamer.

Anyhow I've had some interesting discussions about this topic just yesterday with some activists - and even if a city could only grow 10% of it's food using current Permaculture methods, it's much better than nothing. Lots of people seem to want to take Permaculture to places I don't personally even find much interest in.

[move]I hate the city haha[/move]

i'd like to thank you for these links..i have managed to get some to work and others not yet, but i'll keep trying.

I have read 3 of them entirely and have copied some on disc for family and friends, hopefully this will make the world a greener place..

also by posting on this it will bump it up into current space

Brenda Groth wrote:
i'd like to thank you for these links..i have managed to get some to work and others not yet, but i'll keep trying.
I have read 3 of them entirely and have copied some on disc for family and friends, hopefully this will make the world a greener place..
also by posting on this it will bump it up into current space

Brenda, if you have trouble again with some of the links just message me and I'll try to get them to you somehow.

over the past few weeks I have read so much and learned so much, a lot of it thanks to these particular links. I also have gone on scribd and some others and even found some links of my own which I have saved or read.

i do agree with the things that have been said here and i do also agree that probably one of the most important things we can do is spead the word about growing not only food but other plants ..but yes mostly food.. everywhere.

My new food forest gardens are very very small as I had to restart everything after our fire less than 8 years ago this month, and then restart some other areas after our son was given an acre of our woods and food forests to clear for his home, garage and drainfield.

Now in the past 3 years I have begun again to restablish the food forests..so they have a ways to go before they are at a teachable place, but when they are, I hope to invite people from the surroundingare to our property and try to educatte them some on the value of planting things on their property in a peraculture way..esp the food forests..and see if we can't get more and more lovely producing plots of land growing around this area..i have educated one set of our neighbors who has since now planted at least 50 or 60 trees in the past year including 5 apple trees, and has undeplanted those with rhubarb, asparagus and a potato crop and is going for more..

it is a blessing to see the property next door becoming a future permaculture haven right along with my baby food forests ..amen

hey,
so alot of posts since i last checked this thread.
apart from it getting sidetracked a bit it seems to me as a few different issues are being discussed by different people in the same thread, which lead to some misintrepetations.

first of all there was the initiatal topic of reading the teksts,

second was the qualities of learning from tekst vs learning from experience

third is what qualities/ teaching methods would you expect from teachers.

for the first thing i tend to understand bruc33ef urging people to read the teksts, it does make talking about permaculture easier. at the same time this doesnt mean that not reading the tekst render you impossible of learning more sustainable ways of growing food. or even develop a system thats identical, or close to permaculture designing. but talking about permaculture becomes a tad easier if people involved are familiar with the existing definitions. (this is problematic with permaculture especially, because it is a young and new system still being developed, and like a lot of texts emphasize on, there are probably as much definitions as there are practioners.

still there are some universal core thoughts to permaculture:
3 core-ethics
10 design principles (or 12 according to holmgren)

and there it allready starts to differ since the ten principles differ from writer to writer (although they resemble each other mostly)

i like what lisa said about it in the 'what is permaculture' topic:

Permaculture (as I see it) is three parts:
(1) an ethic or philosophy.
(2) a set of design principles.  Applying the principles will (should) lead
    to a design that fulfills the philosophy.
(3) a bunch of tactics that may or may not apply in any situation
    (eg herb spirals, keyhole beds) and may be obvious (eg organic
    gardening).

Lisa in Ashland Oregon

and would like to add: 4. a network of people, projects and knowledge growing all over the world.

what bruc33ef is probably is experiencing is the fact that paul tries to keep this forum as practical as possible, in an effort not to scare away newbies with long theoretical discussions. so the main discussions on these forums cover the third of lisa's point, and with that, partly contribute to (my) fourth point..
--------
then theoretics versus practical experience...
imo practical experience cant be beat by books.
if it comes to providing for food, my old boss (organic smallholder) with his lifetime experience and knowledge far outcompetes mine. but if it comes to (theoretical) knowledge of integrated systems, working with succesion, and benificial plant relationships i would be cocky and say i know a bit more.

there are many ways of growing food, and a lot of them are more sustainable than current agricultural ways of producing food, but it doesnt make them permaculture necisarily. which in its turn doesnt say anything about if its a good thing or not. you cant measure somethings values by holding it next to a 'permaculture scale'. permaculture isnt the ultimate goal, it are means to an end.

if you look at permaculture as a toolbox, the design principles and techniques as its tools and permaculture itself as a design system; books or a pdc can provide anybody with the tools to go about and develop your skills. But the books wont guarantee skills. and with skills i mean being able to apply those principles and techniques (wether this is in landscaping, gardening, architecture, designing an eco-village)
no book can replace 'experience', but starting out on a garden without any knowledge of the design tools makes it hard to develop skill in applying them  (of corse it is possible for some, like sepp and bill, to develop knowledge, deep knowledge on natural principles and how to apply that designing our own systems, but i tend to welcome a lifetime of learning from others that proceeded me.)

i am not a purist, i dont care if everybody starts making eco-system mimicing food-forests, or justs starts going about caring for their lawn of ornamental garden differently, im already happy if people start mulching or try to increase the growing layers by stacking in space etc. everybody should take from the toolbox what they need. But i do welcome any theoretical or practical knowledge that is available with open arms and thus started reading every tekst and watching every movie i could get my hands on, as well as trying everything i learn out on a 50x25 meters lot. ( btw i think money is not necessary, the internet provided me with most info, allthough in time i started buying books that are actually available by downloading)

and then the topic shifted from how do we learn best to what best way to teach

which for me is dual, i dont experience that as two opposing ways. for me theory and practice can complement each other (i sometimes read theory that makes me understand something happening in the gardens better, but also sometimes experience something in our baby-foodforest that makes me understand something ive read better.)

as for (pc) teachers i would expect them to not only have theoretical knowledge but also a lot of experience applying their teachings.

Your summary is balanced but not quite accurate.  Here are a few quick points which I hope go to the heart of this issue.

1.  Because someone thinks it's a good idea to read the books before you blab or do, does not mean they don't see the value of practice vs theory.  There must be a balance and in my view the balance was/is being distorted by those who go out and write about doing permaculture without having a grounding in what it is or is not -- however broadly you want to define the term permaculture.

2.  The idea of theory vs practice is a false dichotomy anyway.  Everything you do in the garden, for instance, has a theory, and set of values, behind it.  You may not be conscious of them; you may not know the history of them; you may not have examined them; but your action comes from a certain set of ideas about how things work which at the very least makes you want to do the things you're doing.  There is no such thing as value-free gardening.  If you want a big, beautiful lawn, it implies that you value lawns and possibly haven't looked fully at the impact of lawns as discussed in a lot of the Pc literature.  At least know what you're doing before you go and turn everything into grass and happily call it permaculture.

3.  Isn't it better to bring these subconscious theories and values to the surface where they can be looked at and reflected upon rather than do things unconsciously (like the animals we know and love but don't have to behave like)?  This is where the books come in.  Read then do then read; do then read then do -- whichever way you want to start.  But don't ignore the readings.

The texts are a tool. One can be text savvy but have no practical or personal experience.
Don't let the texts be a set of rules that can not be questioned or improved upon. Personal local observations/experiences can only add to what are in the texts. The texts shouldn't be a hardened precept but a broader concept tool. By all means read the texts if they are available but but don't let a basic understanding prevent you from experimenting.

Once a theory is formed (initial speculation) it has to be proved as in any scientific model.
Practice or dirt under the fingernails is required to verify the theory.
I'm not sure exactly what value-free means? Full recovered compensation? Personal importance?

Joop Corbin - swomp wrote:
...starting out on a garden without any knowledge of the design tools makes it hard to develop skill in applying them  (of corse it is possible for some, like sepp and bill, to develop knowledge, deep knowledge on natural principles and how to apply that designing our own systems, but i tend to welcome a lifetime of learning from others that proceeded me.)
...i do welcome any theoretical or practical knowledge that is available with open arms and thus started reading every tekst and watching every movie i could get my hands on, as well as trying everything i learn out on a 50x25 meters lot. ( btw i think money is not necessary, the internet provided me with most info, allthough in time i started buying books that are actually available by downloading)

...for me theory and practice can complement each other (i sometimes read theory that makes me understand something happening in the gardens better, but also sometimes experience something in our baby-foodforest that makes me understand something ive read better.)

Forgive me for slicing and dicing your quotes here, but I think these passages together are very true and the right approach to take.  Whether you start bottom-up or top-down is probably immaterial; there are feedback loops in both directions.