Just fermenting and being fermented by life
Josiah Kobernik wrote:Tonight's design meeting is at 6 p.m. mountain time
Nails are sold by the pound, that makes sense.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotationalmobgrazing format for human interactions.
Josiah Kobernik wrote:here are the drawings that will be the basis for Kyle's new 3D model.
Home: SW Colorado, 38N Latitude, 2100m elevation, Zone 5b/6a
Ask Me About: Keyline in Broadacre, Pasture restoration, Electric Vehicles, Solar, Computers/Networking/Automation
Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:Wow, amazing discussion!
I'm wondering about the existing designs (that have a fan, but also 10' boreholes)could those people be involved in running some tests to get some data to inform the current project?
If it takes 3 years to charge but then works for 50, that's a valid investment. If you have to cheat with photovoltaics for those first 3 years but then can remove them and pass them on to a neighbor building their new greenhouse, then there's minimal loss.
It makes it harder to judge the effectiveness of the experiment and is less kickstarterattentionspan compatible, but it is permaculture. Permanence.
However, let's say the power needed in year 1 or 2 from photovoltaic is less than any competing greenhouse design in the same latitude, that is a good result to show for the experiment.
It would be great to know what the 10' borehole design needs for power in year 1, 2, 3, even without deliberate thermal mass involvementuseful information and also a point of comparison to know what number to beat to show progress.

I see almost no downside to making extra boreholes and capping them as options for the future.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotationalmobgrazing format for human interactions.
Josiah Kobernik wrote:In critique of the strategy of capping things off for later testing, I will relay two things that Paul has told me.
thing one, instead of testing each innovation independently with controls, paul likes to heap ten or more innovations into one experiment and then if the experiment is successful, you can successively divide the innovations in half to sort for relative influence.
thing two, the annualized thermal inertia aspect of wofati structures takes years to test. It may take 2 or more years for the mass to be fully charged and operating in semistable seasonal temperature fluctuations. So capping and uncapping earth tubes within the first 5 years muddies the results of the thermal inertia. That being said, If it takes several years for the greenhouse to start working, then it's not very attractive as a design solution.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotationalmobgrazing format for human interactions.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotationalmobgrazing format for human interactions.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotationalmobgrazing format for human interactions.
Community Building 2.0: ask me about drL, the rotationalmobgrazing format for human interactions.
Just fermenting and being fermented by life
Just fermenting and being fermented by life
Josiah Kobernik wrote:I calculated that the total weight of the roof with three feet of soil soaking wet above the membrane is 12,660 lbs.
Each of the 8, 8 inch posts can support more than 22,000 lbs. So that's cool.
Home: SW Colorado, 38N Latitude, 2100m elevation, Zone 5b/6a
Ask Me About: Keyline in Broadacre, Pasture restoration, Electric Vehicles, Solar, Computers/Networking/Automation
Josiah Kobernik wrote:I calculated that the total weight of the roof with three feet of soil soaking wet above the membrane is 12,660 lbs.
Each of the 8, 8 inch posts can support more than 22,000 lbs. So that's cool.
Joshua Rimmer wrote:
Josiah Kobernik wrote:I calculated that the total weight of the roof with three feet of soil soaking wet above the membrane is 12,660 lbs.
Each of the 8, 8 inch posts can support more than 22,000 lbs. So that's cool.
Could we see your calculations, Josiah? The numbers I find say wet soil averages 3000 lbs per cubic yard. If I recall the greenhouse dimensions correctly, 10 foot by 9 foot, 90 square feet times 3 feet deep =270 cubic feet. 27 cubic feet divided by 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard = 10 cubic yards. 10 yards times 3000 equals 30,000 lbs. You still have a HUGE excess load capacity!
Edited for my atrocious spelling!
Executive Director and Lead Instructor, Institute of Integrated Regenerative Design
Alan Booker wrote:
Joshua Rimmer wrote:
Josiah Kobernik wrote:I calculated that the total weight of the roof with three feet of soil soaking wet above the membrane is 12,660 lbs.
Each of the 8, 8 inch posts can support more than 22,000 lbs. So that's cool.
Could we see your calculations, Josiah? The numbers I find say wet soil averages 3000 lbs per cubic yard. If I recall the greenhouse dimensions correctly, 10 foot by 9 foot, 90 square feet times 3 feet deep =270 cubic feet. 27 cubic feet divided by 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard = 10 cubic yards. 10 yards times 3000 equals 30,000 lbs. You still have a HUGE excess load capacity!
Edited for my atrocious spelling!
In a timber structure like this the vertical posts won't present the major problems because they are in compression. The real concern is with the sizing of the purlins since they are taking the load in the shearing direction. You need to figure the size of the purlin based on the span distance between posts and the load coming down from above.
Just fermenting and being fermented by life
Just fermenting and being fermented by life
Josiah Kobernik wrote:here are my calculations for the weight of earth on top of the roof. The number I gave earlier included 1246 lbs for the 8 inch rafters and purlins as well as the roof pole sheathing.
Sample weights:
Soil 1 cubic ft. weighs 70.44 lb. when dry and 87.6 lb. when saturated to the point of runoff.
Area of triangle (A)
1.4 x 8.7 / 2 = 6.09 sq. ft.
Volume of (A)
6.09 X 11.5 ft. wide = 70.04 ft.^3
Weight of (A)
70.04 ft^3 x 87.6 lb (wet soil) = 6135.5 lb
Or
70.04 ft^3 x 70.44 lb (dry soil) = 4933.6 lb
Area of triangle (B)
1.5 x 8.7 / 2 = 6.52 sq. ft
Volume of (B)
6.52 sq. ft x 11.5 ft wide = 74.98.ft^3
Weight of (B)
74.98 ft^3 x 70.44 lb (dry soil) = 5281.6 lb
Weight of soil on roof (A) + (B) when (A) is saturated to running off.
11416.5 lb.
The next step is to determine how much of that weight will be on each roof pole, purlin, and rafter so that I can size them appropriately.
Just fermenting and being fermented by life
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