When can grazing animals be used to re-green desertified areas?

I'm confused and could use the help of more knowledgeable minds!

So Geoff Lawton talks about goats being a big problem in re-greening desertified areas.  As I understand it, the animals are eating more than the land can regenerate in green growth. This seems easy to demonstrate, as it's all around me.

Alan Savory has also demonstrated regenerating low-rainfall South African grasslands by using more animals in a special grazing pattern.  Here's a video and transcript for those who haven't heard of him: Alan Savory TedTalk on Reversing Desertification in African grasslands

So what is the difference in the situations they are working in?  Do the S. African grasslands have more clay in their soil (hence the red?), versus a more sandy soil that can't hold water as easily?  Does the rain fall in different patterns (which might allow for more soil activity spread over the year)?  Is it a combo, or something totally different?

I imagine the soil composition would make a huge difference.  It occurred to me that if Lawton is working in areas that have both low clay and almost no humus - very sandy soil, that his approach would require building the humus content first before it could be stable enough to support animals. But I'm wondering how to know when you can use the animal method, versus when that won't work.

I'm sure someone out there knows!  :-)

I suggest you read Savory's original work, rather than someone else's rehash of it. It is complex and frequently misunderstood.

Savory mimics the natural herding behaviour of wild ruminants. A large herd, the bigger the better, will spend a very short period of time in one place, anywhere from one hour to 5 days. During this time all grass is bitten off or trampled and pooped on. The herd will not return to that spot until the grass has completely regrown, this might be months later or even a year later.

The manure left holds a lot of good nutrients for the plants but it takes time for the plants to be able to use it. If ruminants return before the plants are completely recovered, the plants don't get the advantage of the manure and are weakened.

Soil type has nothing to do with it, Savorys' methods work great on my sandy soil. If goats are causing a problem it is because they are regrazing plants before they fully recover. The solution is to move them frequently, and not let them return for a sufficient recovery time. If this cannot be managed, then goats don't fit on your permaculture farm.

"It is not the cow, it's the how"

Leora, I see what you are saying.  I didn't realize it was that simple - albeit the huge challenge seems to be having enough land on which to do this sort of grazing.  

Where I'm moving is desert grassland and mesquite that would take a year to regrow, so that would require a huge area to rotate only a few animals.  We bought 77 acres, but even that couldn't support many sheep or goats.  It sounds like moving a small amount of animals wouldn't have the effect he's after, as it requires more animals to see results..? Maybe we'll stick with ducks.  

Very interesting. Thanks for breaking it down like that for me.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't work with a small number of animals as long as they are kept close together and moved at the proper time.  This will mean a clever fencing and shelter design that can move along with the animals. People do this with electric net fencing and mobile shelters.  

Here's an example of electric net and mobile shelter using goats in a different context:  https://permaculturenews.org/2014/10/08/reforesting-goats/

You could keep a few sheep or goats, just for your own use. There would be some improvement if they are grazed properly. But with that small of a space in a desert I would probably stick to poultry. If you can have them in a mobile coop or tractor you can move them the same as you would ruminants, and get the soil improvement effects anyway.

Kim Goodwin wrote: It sounds like moving a small amount of animals wouldn't have the effect he's after, as it requires more animals to see results..? Maybe we'll stick with ducks.  

You can do the same thing with ducks actually. It's called paddocking and you can use any animal and any number of them. Just use the portable fencing linked to above and make sure the enclosure is small enough to make them trample and poop the place up pretty well before moving them on. You could use one goat in a 10 ft x10 ft paddock for instance, or four ducks in the same. The benefits will differ a little with each species, but it works to revitalize the ground.

I am guessing there is a point at which things are just too sparse, where the '5-24 hour grazing' area is so big and vegetation so spread out that the animal traffic damage outweighs the manure benefits.

Where this point is... not so sure.

Dillon Nichols wrote:I am guessing there is a point at which things are just to sparse, where the '5-24 hour grazing' area is so big and vegetation so spread out that the animal traffic damage outweighs the manure benefits.

Where this point is... not so sure.

Surprisingly enough it works the other way. On extremely arid land there is even greater improvement with livestock. Acording to Savory in extremely arid places the soil will form an algal cap that reduces the ability for rain to soak into the soil and seeds cannot germinate through it. In these places large ruminants need to be excited. This is easiest do do with salt. Their hooves will tear up the algal cap and allow rainwater in and seeds to germinate.

My soil does not form this cap (too much cold) so I cannot say from personal experience how necessary it is. There are lots of examples though of this being done and working.

Savory mimics the natural herding behaviour of wild ruminants. A large herd, the bigger the better, will spend a very short period of time in one place, anywhere from one hour to 5 days. During this time all grass is bitten off or trampled and pooped on. The herd will not return to that spot until the grass has completely regrown, this might be months later or even a year later.

The manure left holds a lot of good nutrients for the plants but it takes time for the plants to be able to use it. If ruminants return before the plants are completely recovered, the plants don't get the advantage of the manure and are weakened.

Soil type has nothing to do with it, Savorys' methods work great on my sandy soil. If goats are causing a problem it is because they are regrazing plants before they fully recover. The solution is to move them frequently, and not let them return for a sufficient recovery time. If this cannot be managed, then goats don't fit on your permaculture farm.

Thank you for this! I’ve listened to hours of Savory’s talks and still couldn’t figure out quite what he thought ought to be done. I considered buying the book, but after listening and listening, I figured it would be way beyond my ability to understand. You’ve cleared up more in these three paragraphs than I ever expected to see at this point. I mean the man is obviously brilliant. I’ve just reached the conclusion he’s too brilliant for me to follow even if I was sitting on the porch with him, asking direct questions. What you’ve said... that was incredibly helpful. I can do that.

I do have a further question... Savory was having the animals escorted back to a sheltered paddock at evening. My cows are equipped to protect themselves and calves from the predators we have but it wouldn’t be too much trouble to bring them back to their shed at night. I’m not planning to plant a garden there in a year or so, however, as the folks he was working with did. Our frost-free time is so short it’s hardly worth the trouble—one day I’ll build a greenhouse. I’m thinking I should skip that part to avoid nitrogen overload. As it is, there’s good grass there and I’d hate to spoil that. What do you think?