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compact 6" RMH hybrid with cook top and dutch oven

 
F Styles
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the fire will still pass the heat through the brick to the steel and into the concrete. that is why i suggested to you they way i did to give you protection and the insulation you need. if it was my system, tearing out the concrete is the best way to fix it. unfortunately i think lining the inside may not get you the results you may be looking for buddy.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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I will keep that in mind through the development process, and I may have to re-design for my next project model 2016EMBER2.0.

I think I should have used a 6"x 1/8" for the burn chamber, but I'm learing and adjusting as I go...
IMG-20151231-01872.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG-20151231-01872.jpg]
my current 5" VS my 6" idea

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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Happy new year permies! Be safe tonight if you celebrate. Peace and love, and best wishes for 2016!

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
Glenn Herbert
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Nor will the refractory-soaked fiberglass mat liner give appreciable insulation, just enough to likely protect the steel if the mat doesn't sag.


Experimenting with structural steel is fine for your own edification, if you don't want to take the experience of the many other people who have done it for guidance. Refractory and insulating materials have been demonstrated to be better at doing the essential task of generating high heat and complete combustion. Steel is really good only for outer containers of the refractory material and insulation, and only best for that if your metalworking skills and tools are better than your cob/masonry skills. But if metal is what you like working with or the aesthetic you prefer, then have fun!
 
John McDoodle
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That's what life is about, having fun, right?

More photos and VIDEOS to come soon

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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John McDoodle wrote:That's what life is about, having fun, right?

More photos and VIDEOS to come soon



did you look at the link of the tungsten alloy 6" pipes i posted a while back? it has an operating temp of 1800 F and may work well if you want to use that as a metal core. if i had to chose a metal i think i would look for a tungsten alloy. tungsten has a melting point of over 6000 F
i used to work with tungsten back in the 90s at a fabrication shop and it is very high temp and tough material.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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That's good stuff, but what's the catch? Lol. What the cost?

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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Sounds expensive... But maybe worth looking into

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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I was looking up tungsten availability and price, and I found a local company who sells titanium. I found 6" pipe but its rather expensive. I know people pay thousands for good woodstoves, so I might invest in some for my next improved 2016EMBER2.0 model

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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John McDoodle wrote:I was looking up tungsten availability and price, and I found a local company who sells titanium. I found 6" pipe but its rather expensive. I know people pay thousands for good woodstoves, so I might invest in some for my next improved 2016EMBER2.0 model



what did they say it cost per foot? did you ask them if they had any other alloys?

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
F Styles
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a titanium system would be nice buddy. i would like to see you build it. please post lost of pics if you do. and then when the skeptics jump all over you for a metal stove you can say its titanium!

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
F Styles
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castable cores are easy to build. have you seen this video? if i were to build this unit i would use as much refractory cement as i could to make it stronger.

i also wouldnt burn it the next day. i would let it sit for a week or so. if you built a unit like that then you could weld your metal in areas you could use in lower temp areas.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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12$ per inch! Lol. That's titanium, 2mm thick, and 5.5" is the biggest they have online lol.

I didn't ask anyone because the prices are right there online. 12.oo per inch isn't bad I guess, but their web prices are american! Which sucks because I'm canadian, the company is canadian and only about an hour away, and the canadian dollar is only worth about 0.72 USD right now... :O (last time I checked a few days ago)

I couldn't get your tungsten link to work. Is it expensive? I think this 5.5" titanium would be awesome in the riser, put something bigger around it and stuff the void with perlite. That would be very awesome combined with my new burn chamber design. Lots of insulation, and no meltdowns lol

If my frugality kicks in, I will probably get the 5" stuff, its like $3.oo cheaper per inch. And if I were to go with a thinner wall 1.25mm 5", its 5 dollars cheaper per inch!

5.5" x 2mm - 12.oo USD / inch
5" x 1.25mm - $6.76 USD /inch
That's almost DOUBLE/HALF the price

http://www.titaniumjoe.com/index.cfm/products/tubing/

I found it at the very bottom of page 2. This guy is only 1 hour from where I live.
IMG-20151231-01874.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG-20151231-01874.jpg]

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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I just realized something...

I could fit a piece of 4.5", 5" or maybe 5.5" titanium, into my existing prototype model's existing riser. If I use the smaller 5" or 4.5" I could fill the void with perlite or something mostly insulative...

If I decided to do that, it would reduce my current prototype system slightly from a 6" to a 5", or whatever I use...

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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what is that a pic of? what are you doing?

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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I'm taming the dragon lol.

Honestly I don't know what I'm doing. I'm using an industrial propane torch, drying the cement that's sandwiched between the sheets of glass fiber, warming the cold steel, and questioning my sanity, all at the same time lol.

I am questioning this glass fiber and cement liner. It was not fun mixing and laying layers, sandwiching the stuff, and dropping it in all by myself. What a chore. I had some swear words going on. Its in there, but not very much cement, and I used it ALL inbetween the 2 sheets of glass fiber... Its definately lacking something lol. If anyone is waiting for me to fail, hang on tight and stay tuned, because this liner might end up in the fail category soon...

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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Maybe I'm over-simplifiying. What if I poured another cast refractory, mixed with way more perlite, but INside the riser this time...

Once again, if I do that, it will slightly reduce my system from a 6" to a 4" or 5". I read that 4" simply isn't adequate for a mass system... But I'm not sure...

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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you used all that cement? did you make your cement slurry correct? it has to be very thin and watery to soak into the fiberglass. let it soak for moment good. i say if you gotter in there all even it may just save your system. let us know how it burns tomorrow. i thin casted core inside the metal tube sounds great, but using perlite with it being that thin wouldnt give you much insulation. face it, you may be married to tearing out your concrete and putting back the crumbles.

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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I'm not in love with that idea lol. I don't quite understand it, and my steel would be way more likely to burn out for sure if I did that... Two wrongs don't seem to make a right, in my mind... But I'm still playing with it in my spare time. It works, I've burned it for 8-10 hours so far, I just want it to work a little better. Ever since I poured the cast riser, it doest seem to pull as hard. That's why I wanted to insulate INside the riser, along with allowing longevity of my steel components

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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John did you soak your fiberglass like this?


i used 1/4 of a liter of refractory cement to make that amount of slurry to soak an entire T-shirt into it. so im having trouble imagining you using an entire tub?



i could have done my entire core system with 1/2 a tub of refractory cement and its 6"

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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Yeah man, I used an entire 3LB tub spred between the two glass-fiber sheets, like a peanutbutter sandwich. But when I picked it up as a whole liner, and I struggled to drop it in by myself, the peanutbutter sandwich wasn't quite the same. Moving it and rolling it made some of the peanut butter fall and ooze into the bottom, no big deal I guess.

I fired it again today. I wasn't happy, until I removed the firebircks from the burn tunnel, that's when I got my vaccumm suction back.

This internal/integral mass is possibly too big/heavy for this set up. It would take likely at least 6 hours to warm it up. I burned it for 2 hours , 3 hours at a time, and the mass is always still ice cold on the backside. My next model, I won't cut out the top base wheel's center. I did that with this model and the mass goes deep, its too deep and too huge, requiring many hours of burn to properly charge the thermal mass... I don't like it... But for the record. After 10 hours of burns and punishment with the industrial torch, all my steel is in great condition. Maybe 10 hours isn't enough to say, but so far so good for the steel longevity.
IMG-20160101-01880.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG-20160101-01880.jpg]
after removing the firebrick from the burn chamber, I got my vaccum draw suction back again. is the riser-liner helping with that? very possibly...

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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Some photos. Some newly developed issue with a slight amount of smoke coming out the chimney. My J tube core burned very efficiently by itself, so I know that part isn't the issue...
IMG-20160101-01883.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG-20160101-01883.jpg]
why is my chimney producing small amounts of smoke now?
IMG-20160101-01878.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG-20160101-01878.jpg]
the day after making the liner...

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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oh no, you made PBJ fiberglass sammich... goodness just let it be known... so i dont get blamed for any failure, i did not suggest that. slurry brother, slurry!

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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Well the glass fiber sammich liner seems to work, but I've been busy trying to get that black dakota ready for certification, so I haven't spent much time on the stove, but my current issue is, now its smoking like a woodstove. I might have to smash the concrete riser mass like Fstyles originally mentioned. I will check and see how the other permies guy is doing with his "fisrt try" steel and concrete rocket before I make any final decisions

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
luis proenca
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John, despite my lack of experience in the area, i dare to make a suggestion: fire it up and let it burn for long hours, till it gets to the normal opperating temps. The smoke should disapear by then. Probably it will take a long while to get really warm enough due to the volume of mass, due to the lack of insulation and of course due to the canadian winter temperatures.
Adding what so ever to the interior of the tubes is in my opinion, pointless.
Keep on going
 
Dave Dahlsrud
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John, ditch this thing....it seems like you've learned what you can from this model! Salvage what you can and move on to version 2.0, it sounds way better. The four inch burn chamber(6 inch tube lined with fire brick) combined with the insulated 4.5 inch titanium riser sounds cool as hell!!! (should work a heck of a lot better to, and fit your space nicely) I'm not really a RMH guy, but I can sure recognize a dead horse when I see one! (FWIW don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet or not, but the concrete in your riser is made from portland cement, aggregate/sand, and fiber. Concrete is made from cement, it's not likely to last for this application) Keep experimenting and innovating, but there's no need to waste your time. Know when to say when!!!

Permaculture and Homestead Blogging on the Traditional Catholic Homestead in Idaho! Jump to popular topics here: Propagating Morels!, Continuous Brew Kombucha!, and The Perfect Homestead Cow!

 
John McDoodle
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No pertland cement. I used mortar and HD contrete. You can see a photo and description of my ingredients on page 1

Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys I will get crackin when I have some more free time

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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Dave Dahlsrud wrote:I can sure recognize a dead horse when I see one!



only since Dave mentioned it do i feel at the liberty to comment on the subject.



number 12 is my favorite: "Declaring that the dead horse does not have to be fed, it is less costly, carries lower overhead, and therefore contributes substantially to the bottom line of the economy that do some other horses."

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
F Styles
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although... you could always get a bigger whip out?

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
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At least I get to be in good humour .

I sent my prototype 1/4" lid/cook top to my neighbours, he is a professional welder. He is going to weld the collar on my lid that will retain the glass fiber stove gasket (kit) and keep the lid centered.

I have enough time and money invested in my "horse" here, that I'm going to ride this strusty steed until we get our journey is complete or until we learn more about the journey at least. I need more of this hands on experience, although I appreciate theory and physics and proven science at the same time. Issac newton had the apple fall on his head, so to speak. That's some hand on experience right there lol.

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
F Styles
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YEEEEHAAAAW RIDE THIS SUMMITCH INTO THE SUNSET!

Rocket Mag evolution timeline: http://www.permies.com/t/52316/rocket-stoves/Rocket-stove-heats-water-pics

Rocket Mag Thread: http://www.permies.com/t/54074/rocket-stoves/Rocket-Mag-heater-Rocket-Mag

 
John McDoodle
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Well the high today here is gonna be -12 degrees celcius, here in Ontario canada. The low tonight is -22 celcius without the wind chill. That isn't stopping me from working outside in my un-heated dirt-floor shop.

Ever since I tried a riser liner, I had smoke coming from my stove. Today I layed this 350+ LB stove over on its side, and removed the liner along with some ash and dried concrete spill clumps here and there...

One of my photos you can clearly see how huge and low my custom mixed concrete mass goes, all the way to the floor. The mass is so large and deep that the lower section still feels ice cold after 3-4 hours of straight burning.


positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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Okay then
IMG-20160104-01884.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG-20160104-01884.jpg]
the concrete is soo deep, so heavy, its truly a massive mass, pun intended. (aluminum tape finally removed)
IMG-20160104-01885.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG-20160104-01885.jpg]
while flopped on its side, I had a much easier trial liner removal, clean out, and base inspection

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
John McDoodle
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luis proenca,

you are right, I need to bring it up-to-temperature, which is going to take a very long burn, since the stove prototype is outside in the un-heated workshop and the high-temperature today is -13 celcius here in SE Ontario canada. Supposed to dip down to -22 C tonight...

I want to bring it up to temperature, like you say, I'm just not looking forward to babysitting the prototype in this sub-zero canadian weather lol

Maybe if I had my pellet feeder done, I wouldn't have to babysit it for these extended burns, but more to come on that story later

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
Glenn Herbert
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Regarding mass, the main benefit of a lot of it is to distribute the heat over a lot of time. If the place is unoccupied all night and not amenable to staying warm, you would probably be better off with just enough mass to be a couple-hour flywheel and even out the heating through the day.

Also, if the cold mass is related to the smoking, that could mean that it is robbing heat from the combustion zone, which is bad all around. The fire should be able to get up to optimum operating temperature within a half hour at most, and good RMHs do that in 5-10 minutes or so. This would be an indication that you have too much mass in contact with the combustion zone, when insulation should surround the combustion zone and the mass should be downstream.
 
John McDoodle
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I removed the glass fiber/cement liner today. It only started smoking after I installed it.

I also spent hours cleaning inside the unit, some of the cement from the liner ran down and stuck in the bottom of the riser, with a few fibers glued in it, so I had to use a heavy chisel tip bar to chip some of the residual cement and overflow out of the bottom on the riser. Now its all clean again, no fiber liner.

Its designed to heat my dwelling, not my shop. So it needs a large mass for overnight heat, I think. Yes the bottom and back-side of the huge internal mass will take a long time to heat up at all, but tomorrow I'm going to test it again after removing the liner, and cleaning inside, and I plan to run it all day, or at least 6-8 hours, which will be a first for this unit. I don't have the lid back from the welder yet, but the grease drum lids fit like a glove so I can use one of those or another steel plate temporarily
IMG-20160104-01888.jpg
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I think I broke my back, blew a gasket getting this thing upside down. what a chore. ever drop a harley davidson and try to pick it up again? ;)

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
Satamax Antone
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John McDoodle wrote:

Its designed to heat my dwelling, not my shop. So it needs a large mass for overnight heat, I think.

As explained everywhere over this forum. The mass shouldn't be in the combustion unit, but after. As in a bell, or horizontal bench.You first burn cleanly in a rocket core. Then harvest the heat, either in form of quick heat, through a radiator. Usually a barrel. Or slow heat, gathered in a mass, an accumulator of heat.


The mass being inside, it will be insulated from the surroundings by an air layer or gas layer, depending if the fire is out or not, and a layer of metal. And even worse, moving air. Which means it only takes heat away. Because the draft doesn't stop the moment the fire is out.

God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

 
John McDoodle
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I know its different, and the mass being internal is hopefully helping with my space saving, and I wanted it to be internal and compact, saving me from building a heavy permenant bench, which is another job all on its own.

I wanted my design to be different, and I wanted it to be internal, this is hpw I desgined it to be from the start. That's why I call it a HYBRID compact prototype. I'm not tring to replicate the usual RMH at all. I'm going for something much more unique and different purposely.

I'm still in development with less than 20 hrs total burn time, but when I finall get to test it when the mass is room temperature or better, I will post more updates. I plan on doing a long burn tomorrow, to bring the entire mass up above room temperature 2 things which I have not done either of, as of yet. I'm looking forward to both.

Maybe I will have my pellet feeder or pellet burn-basket done in time for the next photos, another special suprise (not mentioned in my title) for all you interested folks who follow my builds. Stay tuned for more!
IMG-20160104-01886.jpg
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what remains of the experimental glass-fiber liner. it was smoking in the riser, so I removed it. some of my fellow permies called it un-necessary, anyway, she gone!

positively optimistic 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/@613Builds

 
Satamax Antone
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God of procrastination https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1EoT9sedqY

 
Normally trees don't drive trucks. Does this tiny ad have a license?
The new purple deck of permaculture playing cards
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/garden-cards
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