New website discussing Christian community

I'm involved with a group of others in editing and producing a new website, blog, and podcast dedicated to discussing the creation of Catholic Christian intentional community. https://happyareyoupoor.com

As well as the community building aspect, I think there are other aspects of the conversation that would interest the folks at permies; we'll be discussing small scale agriculture as an economic and social strategy for community, the importance of living simply and more "community sufficiently," and the importance of protecting the environment.

We welcome comments and other contributions to the conversation.

The podcasts are also available on our iTunes feed: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/happy-are-you-poor/id1542368538

So far, the conversations have centered on the importance, and also the difficulty, of building intentional community. Community has to develop organically, yet in one sense "organic" is the opposite of "intentional." Intentional community building attempts of any sort can end up creating cult-like dynamics.

From time to time, I'll write posts on this thread detailing aspects of the conversation that might interest permies.

Put up an article on the dangers of "labeling" others, which can lead to divisions and black-and-white thinking. https://happyareyoupoor.com/2021/01/28/the-importance-of-the-unnamed/

More Christ centered intentional community is always great though, getting the church on board with permaculture and land stewardship would benefit the world and bring us all closer to the creator.

I'm currently working with a few local community groups and plan to start a ministry sometime in the future.

Keep it up. God bless.

Gilbert Fritz wrote:I'm involved with a group of others in editing and producing a new website, blog, and podcast dedicated to discussing the creation of Catholic Christian intentional community. https://happyareyoupoor.com

As well as the community building aspect, I think there are other aspects of the conversation that would interest the folks at permies; we'll be discussing small scale agriculture as an economic and social strategy for community, the importance of living simply and more "community sufficiently," and the importance of protecting the environment.

We welcome comments and other contributions to the conversation.

The podcasts are also available on our iTunes feed: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/happy-are-you-poor/id1542368538

So far, the conversations have centered on the importance, and also the difficulty, of building intentional community. Community has to develop organically, yet in one sense "organic" is the opposite of "intentional." Intentional community building attempts of any sort can end up creating cult-like dynamics.

From time to time, I'll write posts on this thread detailing aspects of the conversation that might interest permies.

Wow, it literally has been a dream of mine to create such a website about Catholic Intentional Communities, but I didn't feel qualified only being in my mid 20s and just starting on my own journey. We have a nice little community that has formed organically here- around a religious community, but I'd really like to add some more intention to our organic community. I even spoke with the head priest about creating a sort of co-housing community around here and that has been a vision of his as well! I was literally about to start on that right when covid shut the churches down so I didn't get to it then and have since discerned now is not the time. We'll see where the Holy Spirit leads me in the (hopefully) decades ahead of me.

On calling it Catholic, yes as Christians we don't want others to feel unwelcome, but at the same time it's okay to narrow down your niche.

I see you have Maria Lamb commenting on your website, she's a lovely woman :) I met her at Madonna House in 2013.

If you like, I'd love to be on your podcast sometime if we could come to an agreement on a topic I feel adequate in. I ran a podcast for a short bit last year so it wouldn't be too much of a burden for me to pull out the mic again.

I find your focus on voluntary poverty very interesting, especially given our overly materialistic society. I have been thinking about the idea of intentional poverty lately. (A new thing for me) We were bout ready to jump in on some investment strategies that I felt a bit morally uncomfortable with and it got me thinking more about the question, "Do we really need all of that money anyway?"

I'm excited to peruse your site some more!

Thank you for posting this on permies :) Otherwise, I never would have found your website.

Just thought I'd add, I know another community trying to form in my town (stemming from the Charismatic Renewal crowd). I'll have to pass your site along to them, they had the exact problem of trying to make a community intentionally and people were being crushed under the 'rules and regulations' the group was putting upon them. They're still working on it, having learned from the past.

It's interesting to see how many young Catholics are taking the charge to create their own community since so often our local parishes are lacking in connecting people together- particularly young adults who have not started having kids. For me I felt like no one at my small church would REALLY talk to me until I had my daughter, ugh. They'd be pleasant, sure, but the conversations were quite superficial and relationships cannot form in that.

Interesting,  I host a board that comes from it from the protestant view point on MeWe...

https://mewe.com/join/christian_agrarians


I do believe a clear mission statement helps to define your goals of your group and what you are about.

Our Mission statement goes like ->

Christian agrarians are people who have been redeemed by Jesus Christ and seek to live in a way that stewards God’s creation.

It would be a mistake to believe that agrarians are luddites. We are as progressive as it gets because we are counter to current culture first because of our faith that Jesus Christ is Lord and the Son of God and the “way, the truth and the life.” Secondly, we are not luddites because our desire to live more simply in harmony with God’s creation is very futuristic in its perspective in anticipation of possibly future events. Finally, as Christian agrarians, we want to be found doing the things that are pleasing to our Lord while receiving the benefits of His creation as we work in collaboration with it.

We are not preppers, though many preppers are Christian agrarians. We are not permaculturalist, though many Christian agrarians practice permaculture techniques. We are simply people who are trying to live out the truths found in God’s word in some form of agrarian setting or mentality.




I had help in writing it as it is worth the time to define who you are.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the input! I've modified the "about" statement to be a little clearer about who we are and what we're trying to do, and I'll discuss possible further additions with the rest of the team.

Rebecca, good to hear from you! I've sent you a PM.

In our second podcast, we talk about the tension between organic development and intentional design in community formation. On the one hand, "building a community from scratch" produces a fairly high failure rate and leaves the community more open to various dysfunctional dynamics. On the other hand, too organic of an approach might lead to a failure to ever "gel." We end up with more questions than answers, and we'd be happy to get your thoughts. Does anyone have experience with communities that developed organically yet achieved a high level of intentionality? What are some ways to make intentional development less risky? Are there resources on this topic that we should discuss in future episodes?  

https://happyareyoupoor.com/podcast/podcast-2-organic-development-of-community/

Hey Gilbert, I think you’ll be very interested to read this article and to learn about the GoodLands project; and anyone else here interested in how a Catholic permaculture activist is mapping the land holdings of the Church to effect change in usage, addressing both climate change and humanitarian problems.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/02/08/how-a-young-activist-is-helping-pope-francis-battle-climate-change?utm_campaign=likeshopme&client_service_id=31202&utm_social_type=owned&utm_brand=tny&service_user_id=1.78e+16&utm_content=instagram-bio-link&utm_source=instagram&utm_medium=social&client_service_name=the%20new%20yorker&supported_service_name=instagram_publishing

Gilbert Fritz wrote:Does anyone have experience with communities that developed organically yet achieved a high level of intentionality? What are some ways to make intentional development less risky? Are there resources on this topic that we should discuss in future episodes?  

I'm sure as a Catholic delving into the world of intentional and organic community building you probably have heard of Clear Creek Abbey in Oklahoma. I personally have never visited. I'd like to, but for some reason even though my state is just next door it seems a little too far away. (Darn Texas and it's great expanse.) Anywho, I think it would be great for you to speak with someone from that community since almost everyone there is very intentionally choosing community life in moving there... and yet the community itself is a very organically grown thing. It seems having an abbey at the center of the community has given this particular one just the perfect amount of intentionality combined with organic growth.

I know Sam Guzman from The Catholic Gentleman had moved there; however, I now see he has taken those articles down from his website, so perhaps he has moved on. If he did move away it could make for an interesting interview should he be willing.

Andrew Pudewa is another name I have heard that lives there. He's probably more connected to the community than Sam and may be a great person to speak with. I believe his company is based in the area; I highly admire how he has helped to bring jobs to this more rural community that has formed.

Heritage Homestead is an intentional Christian community I know of near me. I have yet to visit since I just discovered them this past Fall, but the whole concept of intentional agrarian Christian community is very interesting to me so I do need to visit soon. Maybe this is an example of a community that HAS successfully created an intentional community? Or perhaps they actually started very organically and now have become more intentional. I really do not know, but maybe some digging on the site would expose some of that information.
I would be utterly thrilled to hear you interview a member of this community. I always wonder how they got started and what contributed to their growth.
Despite the community being in Waco, I doubt Chip and Joanna Gaines are what made them big!

And moving beyond just Christian communities, I think it would be neat to dive into the idea of intentional versus organic communities by interviewing some members of co-housing developments, perhaps interview Paul or a member of his community, and maybe even a member of a tiny house community. I have read of a few co-housing communities out in the world, having researched the concept heavily last Spring. They often seem to be VERY intentional- little to no organic formation there. And that may be why there even is a book about the bureaucracy behind creating a co-housing community. It even gets into details of how to run communities so one single person does not seem to take over and destroy the what was supposed to be a true democratic community. If nothing else, educate yourself on those.

And, one more resource you may be interested in that you may have already heard of is The Benedict Option.

I'm obviously coming from a Catholic background, I hope someone with a different perspective and knowledge shares some more resources with us :)

Amaya Engleking wrote:Hey Gilbert, I think you’ll be very interested to read this article and to learn about the GoodLands project; and anyone else here interested in how a Catholic permaculture activist is mapping the land holdings of the Church to effect change in usage, addressing both climate change and humanitarian problems.

Wow! Thank you for sharing.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Rebecca, the Heritage Homestead group is fascinating, and I will reach out to them. It is interesting that they moved from New York City to Colorado to Texas; extremely intentional as opposed to organically developed.

Amaya, that is a great article and project. I really like the way that Molly Burhans thinks outside the box about solving complex issues. Even though I am not good at maping, (which has sometimes hampered my permaculture projects!) I've always been fascinated by maps of all sorts.

This is very interesting, and I will definitely follow it.  As a convert to Catholicism, from an old southern family, I often feel very out of place.... the only guy with a southern accent and the only single, never married person between the ages of 18 and 80 except for the priest!  It would seem that the Church would be ideal for developing community and really fertile ground, so to speak, for Permaculture.  I hope to start some projects at the churches in my area, teaching Permaculture and starting gardens that could involve old folks and the youth, help with the food bank and build community.  I'd also like to teach medicinal herbalism focusing on the monastic medicine and Catholic herbal heritage - I think that would be great for families with a lot of kids, home schoolers, etc.  I don't think I could see myself in an intentional community though.  I'd love to work with one and be involved.... but you know... on my own terms.  I grew up on a small family farm and am of a very independent, conservative/libertarian nature.  I'm the kind of guy who is very willing to help a neighbor, and very neighborly... but, "I keep myself to myself".   I am very glad you are doing this though and if in future I could come in and teach an herb class or something, I'd be glad to help.  BTW, I'd love to see a Permaculture curriculum designed for Catholic schools and Christian homeschoolers.  I wonder if your community may wish to pursue that?  If so, my (non-Catholic) friend, Matt Powers could offer some great guidance; he is a former school teacher who put a k-12 Permaculture program together.  

Judson Carroll wrote: I'd also like to teach medicinal herbalism focusing on the monastic medicine and Catholic herbal heritage - I think that would be great for families with a lot of kids, home schoolers, etc.  

Very interesting, Judson! I had no idea there was that piece of the Church's history- herbal medicine. But it makes sense, considering that used to be the 'pharmaceuticals' of the day. I definitely think you could find great success doing an online course on the matter. Homeschool families already are thinking alternatively and the jump to using herbal medicine is not as extreme as it would be for others. Not to mention- many may already be on board with herbal medicine. I know many who already use essential oils.

Coming from a Catholic perspective, it would be a benefit to provide clarifications on how herbal medicine fits within the faith. It can be confusing sometimes reading the catechism of the Church and various other documents on alternative medicines, sometimes it appear as if you would be unfaithful should you choose to use alternative medicines. Which is silly since Roman Catholics in other parts of the world practice herbal medicine.

Let me know if you make any progress on this desire of yours

Rebecca Blake wrote:

Judson Carroll wrote: I'd also like to teach medicinal herbalism focusing on the monastic medicine and Catholic herbal heritage - I think that would be great for families with a lot of kids, home schoolers, etc.  

Very interesting, Judson! I had no idea there was that piece of the Church's history- herbal medicine. But it makes sense, considering that used to be the 'pharmaceuticals' of the day. I definitely think you could find great success doing an online course on the matter. Homeschool families already are thinking alternatively and the jump to using herbal medicine is not as extreme as it would be for others. Not to mention- many may already be on board with herbal medicine. I know many who already use essential oils.

Coming from a Catholic perspective, it would be a benefit to provide clarifications on how herbal medicine fits within the faith. It can be confusing sometimes reading the catechism of the Church and various other documents on alternative medicines, sometimes it appear as if you would be unfaithful should you choose to use alternative medicines. Which is silly since Roman Catholics in other parts of the world practice herbal medicine.

Let me know if you make any progress on this desire of yours

Yes, it is quite a rich history.  The monastic medicine goes back to Constantine. An influential abbot named Walafrid Strabo wrote the earliest post Roman herbal I can find, and was tutor to the son of Charlemagne.  The "physic garden" and a charity hospital was required of every monastery in the middle ages, and Benedictines became great doctors.  Perhaps, the greatest herbalist ever lived was Saint Hildegard of Bingen, who received something like the Wisdom of Solomon through visions and angelic messages, and Saint Fiachre was a great Irish herbalist.  The Germanic world continued that great tradition, especially through the works of Fr. Kneipp and the Swiss, Fr. Kunzel.  That tradition was revived by Maria Treben, an Austrian herbalist and devout Catholic, who wrote Health Through God's Pharmacy and Health From God's Garden.  So, we can literally find herbal medicine prescribed in the Bible. used in the early Church and in full flower before the Reformation and the French Revolution, in the very gardens, pharmacies and hospitals of the Catholic Church... and continuing in folk tradition, often in opposition to political mandates against herbal medicine.  Fr. Kunzel was even brought up on charges by the medical establishment of his day.  Now, most herbalists embrace false and slanderous anti-Catholic propaganda, believing that the CHurch forbade herbal medicine as witchcraft.  The opposite is true.  The Church could not teach against the Book of Sirach, for instance, that tells us that God gave us herbs from the earth for medicine.  While it is true that certain beliefs/practices of other religions that use herbs may be in opposition to certain aspects of our doctrine, the herbs God gave to all mankind for food and medicine are universal and intended for use as such.  I've done a few of podcasts on this subject:
https://www.spreaker.com/user/13414994/show-8-final
https://www.spreaker.com/user/13414994/show-5-fr-sebastian-kneipps-herbal-and-w
https://www.spreaker.com/user/13414994/show-12-final

Wow. You are such a wealth of knowledge. Such a brilliant idea to put your notes from a class you're taking on a blog as well! Open for the world to see and learn with you, and easier for you to navigate.
Thank you for sharing

Rebecca Blake wrote:Wow. You are such a wealth of knowledge. Such a brilliant idea to put your notes from a class you're taking on a blog as well! Open for the world to see and learn with you, and easier for you to navigate.
Thank you for sharing

I'm not sure, but if you mean my blog... yes, that was the impetus.  I'm a moderator at The Grow Network, and when we realized that the end of Flash Player would likely lead to the end of the Southwest School of Botanical Medicine's classes being available to many folks, I decided to go through each class and provide notes for those who didn't have the time.  It was really huge.... probably 400 hours with all the audio files and zip files.   But, since I began learning about herbs when I was 15 or so, from the mountain folks, the classes were... I guess, on my level, so... since I'm a copious note taker anyway, this seemed a good way to help others.  I also have a couple of clinical herbalist friends who agreed to read over my notes and make sure I got everything right.  I gave links to everything throughout, and I hope the website stays up as a resource for a long time.  Regardless, a lot of people have told me that they haven't been able to devote as much time to it as I did, but learned a lot through my notes.  Now, I really regret not doing the same for all the classes and apprenticeships I've taken through the years!  I guess that is what it really is all about... learning from folks then teaching others.  "Iteration" as Matt Powers says.    "There is nothing new under the sun."  The crazy thing is that folks want to come learn from me in person!  I'm not set up to do that, so I began my video lesson.   Well, I never intended to be a teacher... thought I was just a woodsman.

Hello Judson,

Thanks for your thoughts! I hope your Permaculture projects "bear fruit" both literally and metaphorically. Community garden type projects are great for building community.

I don't think I could see myself in an intentional community though.  I'd love to work with one and be involved.... but you know... on my own terms.  I grew up on a small family farm and am of a very independent, conservative/libertarian nature.  I'm the kind of guy who is very willing to help a neighbor, and very neighborly... but, "I keep myself to myself".  

I appreciate your perspective on community. I think when people talk about building community, planned, intentional communes or cooperatives come to mind. I share your caution regarding such projects; while they can be very beautiful, they are also difficult to establish and can become cultish or controlling, not leaving enough room for room for diverse human beings.

I'm trying to host a wide range of perspectives on community building on my website, but one thing I'm trying to stress is that until modern times every human being lived in a community; a group of people that they knew and that looked out for one another, more or less. I hold that kind of community to be important to human flourishing, but that doesn't mean we all need to go "found" intentional community projects. That is one way to get there, but I hope that a more gradual, organic approach could turn the disconnected groups of people we already live near into a functioning community, through the kind of neighborly actions you mentioned.

An elderly friend likes to tell me about his childhood in an urban ethnic enclave on the East Coast; as he put it, though they were all poor, nobody was ever going to go hungry. Today, we wouldn't know our neighbors well enough to know if they needed help . . . and that's a shame.

I'm not in any kind of position to put together a Permaculture curriculum, but that's a very interesting project! Is your friend's curriculum in use?

Oh yeah, Matt is rocking the educational side of Permaculture - be sure to check him out if you get a chance!

My ideal community is more the Jeffersonian model.  He envisioned America as agrarian based - a network of small farms and tradesmen, businesses etc, working together based on self interest balanced by traditional Christian morals.  That was, essentially, how the community where I grew up operated even when I was child.  In that corner of the county, nearly every community was named after a branch of my family.  My family had been there since before the American Revolution.  My grandfather, like his father and grandfather, etc, was a farmer, timberman, built houses and was involved in local/state politics.  He was also a brick mason, historic preservationist, park ranger - built a museum... justice of the peace, etc, etc... very impressive man!  Two of my great grandfathers founded churches, and my grandfather built small community churches just as an act of charity.  His best friend growing up was a black man whose ancestors had worked with and for his family, and he began building churches when his friend became a preacher. Our family home was like a community center.  My grandfather employed a lot of people, and my grandmother fed everyone, including their families and anyone from the community who showed up.  She always cooked extra.  The door was always open.  People showed up all hours of the day or night, looking for a job, a loan, help with a relative in jail, domestic disputes, help with sick relatives, etc.  My grandmother nursed the sick.  Babies were delivered.  Congressmen, judges and governors came to supper.  It was often utter chaos!  But, My grandparents were the hub and the glue that held a community together.  There were huge family reunions, weddings, funerals... always tons of food!  My grandparents' generation passed away not long after NAFTA killed the family farms and the divorce culture destroyed the family.  The largest pork producer in the world moved in and flooded the county with illegal immigrant labor.  Most other jobs were just gone and once thriving towns became derelict and abandoned.  Drugs, crime and welfare became rampant.  Everyone that could leave, did.  What made the difference was a shared culture.  Although the area always had several races (white folks were the minority), and there were several religious denominations, there was a shared culture.  Growing up, if I misbehaved, an old black or Lumbee Indian woman would whip my butt and call my mom, just as fast as a relative would.  And, everyone looked out for each other.  The kids played together, adults worked together on farms and in mills.  No, there was not racial harmony all the time.... things flared up occasionally and the Klan was a real thing... and very anti-Catholic.  But, there was still a small Catholic parish and a Jewish synagogue.  Folks who grew up together, knew each other and looked out for each other, and that crossed racial and religious lines.  Mutual respect was what we were all taught and all lived by.  We said yes ma'am and yes sir. No one tolerated disrespect or acted in a disrespectful way.  That was drilled into us as a Christian value in every church and home in the county, and it was really necessary for harmony in the community. People of all races and backgrounds acted in a way that respected their family honor and reputation - no one wanted the shame of being arrested or not paying a debt. And, EVERYBODY knew when someone did! There was a lot of discipline in school.   Then, it all fell apart over a 20 year period or so.... and honestly, an agrarian paradise became close to being hell on earth.  Well, I don't know if that offers any insight, but that is my perspective of how community can and should work.

T Simpson wrote:More Christ centered intentional community is always great though, getting the church on board with permaculture and land stewardship would benefit the world and bring us all closer to the creator.

I'm currently working with a few local community groups and plan to start a ministry sometime in the future.

Keep it up. God bless.

I like that thinking. There is godliness in responding to the need for having good stewardship to this earth, permaculture works for that, as does natural farming, it would be right for more Christians to come to that. Being intentional is what can bring community for that about. What is organic about community flows from a long time for a community to grow to that.

I will be interested in hearing about that ministry when there can be information for it.