Big land purchases

After reading your book, and writing down just what I eventually want to build, I felt that the land I just purchased will eventually be too small, but its all I can afford right now.

I'm not a big-scale farmer, land inherit-er or millionaire. So.... the question I'm left with is: how does an average joe like me buy more acreage? What kind of a discussion would you create for someone wanting more land than makes financial sense?

Rebekah,

Before I can even begin to answer your question, I have to ask some questions of my own.

What do you plan to do with your land?

What is your climate like? Soil type?

Where do you live in regards to an urban area?

What type of finances do you have access to?

For example, I live on the outskirts of a small city.  My land prices are relatively low.  My wife and I have outside jobs to support our lifestyle and we live on about 9 acres of land.  I personally wanted to own land so that it would not get developed, but if I wished I could make a living from my land.

Eric

Rebekah, why do you feel you need more land?

I understand that you said:

Rebekah said "After reading your book, and writing down just what I eventually want to build.

What do you want to build that requires more land? Barn, animal houses garden beds, etc?

The problem I see with buying more land if this were my situation is that the new land would not connect to my existing land.

What would I do with land that is not connected to mine?  Make hay meadows, maybe?

Joel Salatin often talks in his books and lectures about beginning farmers' common desire for more land (or land period), and how it's very beneficial to creatively change one's mindset to *not* be too focused on acquiring more land at first.  

One lecture series of his that I've been re-watching is The Salatin Semester, which was actually hosted by Verge permaculture, the same folks from this week's book giveaway, coincidentally.   There are a few ideas from that DVD series which help decouple the common desire for more land from the ability to meet your needs as a farmer, landowner, or owner/designer:

1) Self development.  Sometimes Joel will ask an audience "What is it that makes a farm?"  People will respond with answers like:  a barn, animals, plants, fields of crops, etc., but his retort is that such things can exist anywhere without it being a farm.  Ultimately, it's the farmer that makes a farm.  So he recommends investing in things that can't be foreclosed on: like knowledge, experience and Management skills.  Then, whether you are renting land, or borrowing it from a friend, or whether you own it outright, you have freedom to make it better, or move elsewhere, or sell your expertise to those with more land.

2) Mobility.  There are 3 M's he mentions, and Mobility is another one.  Much of Joel's infrastructure is portable.  So the farmer can move, but so can the pens, the electric fencing, the goats, etc.  Additionally, he mentions how there are often many landowners who would freely let someone farm their land if they have "their itch scratched".  What that itch is exactly varies from landowner to landowner.   Browsable weeds cleaned up, a new well, fencing, a cleanly grazed pasture, tax breaks, a pond.  The mobile farmer meets that need in return for land access to make a yield.

3) Improving the land itself.   Another thing Joel mentions is that he has yet to see a farm that has been fully developed.  There's always another "function" to "stack", another process or business or synergetic ecological relationship that can be added to the system.   If a new element or system doubles production for instance, then it's akin to buying more land at that price.  As an example if investing $500 into water infrastructure for an acre doubles your crops, you have essentially "bought" land at $500 an acre.  Permaculturalists always talk about this "stacking functions" concept, and the core of permaculture design all about placing the right elements into the right relational places.

So personally, those are the discussions that I would have:  Assessing your knowledge and experience, brainstorming mobile production plans, and designing land improvements which "stack" new functions to make the most of small places.

Lastly, I should mention that I'm of the "if you can acquire land without burdensome debt, go for it!" camp; but I like where Joel is coming from.  After all, unless you are in Dubai, a volcanic island chain, or in the South China Sea, nobody is making more land in this world!  It's mostly washing away into the sea due to erosion.   But self investment, mobile thinking, and intensive improvements will go a looooong way until you can "upgrade" to a bigger challenge in acreage.  

Hey Eric!
Thanks for the thoughtful questions!! Here are some answers...
"What do you plan to do with your land?" --for now, I live on 2/3 of an acre, and I am purchasing another acre to eventually move to just outside my town. A mile away? Its big enough to support my family with gardens, greenhouses, a food forrest, etc. Also, the price is right. However, it has no ground water, teeny water rights that I would have to trench to utilize, and so I'll have to dig a well. (Which is under legal debate currently, in Southern Idaho's driest season since ethe 70's!) Also, it has no slope. Its also 30+ miles to the nearest forrest
What I would like to build includes a larger forrest for sustainable wood harvesting, land with ground water, possibly a spring or creek, and hillsides for wofati-type structures (my hobbit-hole dream!) 🤓💚💚

"What is your climate like? Soil type?" Its zone 4 here on the snake river plains, with sage brush and dry summers. My new land is very rocky, lava bed and rock 3 inches down. I do dream of better soil, but I know I can make thi go work for self-sufficiency here.

"Where do you live in regards to an urban area?" My rural town has 600 inhabitants. We live 30+ miles from any other town.

"What type of finances do you have access to?" My spouse and I have a combined income of less than 100K a year. We live within our means, and our first property will be paid off soon, with the second to be owned within 5 years. So the equity on them both can be swung to purchase bigger things, hopefully in that time-frame. Yet the land I dream of (land prices are skyrocketing here, as I'm sure they have everywhere) will be closer to 1-3 million$. I'm not sure we could ever pay off something that big.... maybe? How do other folks buy big chunks of land?

Hello, Anne!
Thanks for reading through my post! I appreciate your time 🙂 I'd like to eventually harvest wood off my land, have ground water and slopes. I would also be nice to get way off the grid and away from the highway. Ya know?

You're right about 2 pieces of disconnected land. Id probably sell or rent the first. Or use the 2nd as a cabin.

Ever thought of developing a permaculture community like Jeff Lawton did where several pieces of land connect and can be used by self-sufficient folks who want to be neighbors and support eachother. There's a beautiful property with all I dream of just up the canyon from us. Its 3 million$ but I bet if I put my mind to it, I could figure out how to swing it. Someday! Lol. 😆 maybe a land co-op? Anybody here done that?

Wow, George!! That's a lot to chew on! I like your idea about using another's land if I can scratch their itch. Maybe a farmer would welcome me cleaning up their woodland and planting edible plants, in exchange for the secluded cabin and wood harvesting I desire. 🤔 I can even think of some folks who might be interested in this kind of arrangement right now.

And what a relief that might be! I just want a few acres for a summer cabin in the woods, with a spring. Not hundreds of acres, like what seems to be the sizes sold off around here. Hmmmm! Thank you for your thoughts.

Also, this Salatin Semester. You seem to have gotten a lot out of it! Would you say the 250$ is worth it, then?

Great post...

Rebekah,

So if I understand, by purchasing this property you would actually have two parcels of land—am I correct or would you sell the first to afford the second?  Either way, an acre of land dedicated to gardening can provide an enormous amount of food.

Actually, an acre is probably too much to garden.  I would hesitate to say that 1/4 acre would be about the most I would ever want to garden, but this would still yield up a huge amount of food.  Possibly you could dedicate 1/2 acre to trees for a food forest, firewood or whatever your wood needs.  But if you need to grow your own trees, I would start on those very early so they get the best chance to grow.  Of course you will need water for that and this is not a great year for water.  I could go on endlessly about how I would utilize an acre of land, but this is your property so obviously it is your call.

Regarding the skyrocketing land prices:  true, land prices are soaring, but not equally and certainly not everywhere.  I have no idea how I could possibly swing the multi-million perfect parcel you see for sale, but props to you for seeing a possibility.  I know that you have no intentions of moving here but land prices in my area are actually rather stagnant.  I am just pointing out how weird, varied and random land prices can be.

At any rate, you have quite a project ahead and I look forward to seeing how your plans work out.

Eric

Thank you, Eric. Yes, I'll keep both properties, but probably rent out the first to pay for a house on the 2nd.

Where are you located? I am pretty committed to my neck of the woods. But just curious. I want a few cabins someday, so I can travel around to them. Retirement someday, lol!

I bought 80 acres here for $3000.00 an acre a couple years ago.  I just looked at a 40 acre plot for sale, $4600 an acre.  So, prices are going up everywhere.  Even so, for $3,000,000 I could easily buy 1000 to 1500 acres here.  I would love to have that much land, but no way I can afford it without bringing in other people, and that would defeat the purpose for me.

Rebekah,

I live in Southern Illinois about 90 miles south of St. Louis.  It is hill county here, unlike the plains of most of the rest of the state.  Glaciers never made it this far south and the land shows it.  Unlike you, we get lots of rain and we generally have high humidity.  As much as I love the region, the heat and humidity are not my thing—I have Northern roots and I love the snow, something that I think we don’t get enough of.  The Arctic blast that really pounded Texas hit us stronger, with more snow and colder temperatures.  Personally I thought it was a good start but my neighbors did not agree.  I could go on and on, but Southern Illinois is actually quite different than the rest of the state.

Eric

The short answer is, you could probably sell the land that you just bought seeing as how you haven't invested alot, so that you can get buy more acreage later.

I would get 20+acres if I was going to raise cattle. (but luckily you aren't)
I would get a max of 2.5acres just for a CSA farm to feed the neighborhood (but it doesn't seem like that is what you want)

It sounds like your limiting factor isn't really land but instead access to water. More land also usually mean more critters that will destroy what little that grows.

With 1 acre (210ft x 210ft)  I could do the following.
With a perimeter of 840ft I can plant 55trees on 15ft centers, if I did two rows that is 110 fruit and nut trees/shrubs. (about 1/3acre)
If your acre was 660ft x 60ft, with a perimeter of 1440ft we could plant about twice as many trees.
A huge 100ft by 100ft garden could be built. That's twenty 100ft long rows, of weeding, watering, planting, harvest. (about 1/4acre)
You could also throw in a chicken run, honey bee hive and other small animals. (about 1/4acre)
Then there is the actual house/lawn/etc (1/5 acre)

I would like to hear about what you have done with your current 3/4acre.
How many eggs and chicken/duck/etc do you harvest per year, how could you improve that?
How much honey and beewax do you harvest per year?
Do you rear and harvest any other critters (fish/goat/dwarf cow/rabbit/etc)
Do you go hunting and store deer/etc in a chest freezer.
Do you have a walking that you use to cure meat/sausages, or ferment vegetables?
How many fruit/nut trees do you have, how much more could you have?
Which fruit/nut trees have you found that could grow in your climate but you dislike the taste.

How big is your current vegetable garden?
How many pounds of leafy greens do you get to harvest per year?
Do you ferment or dehydrate or freeze any of your harvest, do you plant on doing so when you buy more acreage?
How many pounds of root crop, do you harvest, how big is the area?
How about other fruiting vegetables e.g. squash family, tomato/eggplant family, etc.
What would you like to do in your vegetable garden that you current aren't able to?

How many pounds of fruit/vegetable/eggs/etc would you want to harvest per year, and how much water would your well need to produce to make that happen?

Whats your future plans, get an RV and then visit the 10 different plots that you have in 10 different states? Do you plan on being a snow bird. With another property in a zone 9/10?

Wow, S. Benji, that is an inspiring amount of info/questions, and design ideas!! Some of your questions:
What does my land produce now? I'm new to the permaculture scene, but I have had a 60x80 garden, for a long time. I haven't ever counted the pounds, but we grow produce including the roots and greens you asked about. Enough to supply half our summer produce. I need more root cellar space if I am to grow more and store it for other seasons. Its a job just to feed us, so I'm not sure a market garden is going to be a focus, but perhaps when I have surplus, I could sell it.

I have rabbits (new to the "farm") and hope to enjoy rabbit meat a few times each month. Perhaps turkeys and pigs next year, which we often eat. We also eat elk, which my husband harvests most winters. Over a hundred pounds off most elk. And goose has grown on us. My hubby hints it. Both game will be easily hunted from the new property.
So far we have 8 fruit/nut trees. I also have harvested trees of many neighbors (or public lands) in past years to preserve by canning, freezing, and drying all that I can fit in my food storage room. Although, with 5 kids, we usually eat through what I preserve.
I have purchased more fruit varieties this year, which grow in my area, whose fruits will be new to me, like sunchokes, sea berries, and nanking cherries and peashrubs.

Yes, water is for sure our most limited resource. We are legally only supposed to irrigate 1/4 of our acre from our well water. I would like to see how rainwater harvesting from house, greenhouse and garage might improve how much growing space we can green up.

I'll also save some space for a yoga/massage studio and midwifery birth center. These are my current income streams, and I dream of being able to do delete my commute 😉

Your questions have allowed me to ponder many possible uses of our land I haven't been detailed about up to this point. I can see how, with good design, my land could produce all I want, except for a get-away cabin, of course. Thank you for the needed perspective!! 🥰

Rebekah,

I have to say that I like much of S Bengi's approach.  My own additional thoughts on this basic idea might look something like the following:

1)  First, I am afraid I initially misread your food forest idea and I thought you wanted an actual parcel of wooded land, perhaps for firewood production.  1/2 an acre would be pushing the limits, but maybe it could be done with the right species (black locust?  Osage Orange?).  At any rate, since you want food, I like the idea of the 50ish perimeter trees.  

The remaining land I would divide into quarters

2)  First quarter acre going to house, outbuildings, driveway, water tanks and catchment and basically areas you can't grow things (do you want any yard at all?).

3)  Second quarter going to a large garden area.  If it were me and I were feeling ambitious and creative (and why not), I would make the large, 100' garden beds S Bengi mentioned.  But I would take it two steps further.  First, I would make those raised bed gardens (I would use cement blocks as they are cheap and permanent).  Second, I would try to fill the new beds with wood chips that I would break down with mushrooms, either Wine Cap or Blue Oyster.  I garden exclusively in raised bed gardens filled with wood chips that I have inoculated  with Wine Cap mushrooms.  The first year after harvesting mushrooms, I was astonished by how productive and fertile the beds were with no other fertility added.  In my experience, biology trumps chemistry for fertility values.  You might find that these types of beds are more productive and require less work (less weeding, less bending over) than traditional beds.

4)  Third quarter dedicated to a small orchard, fruit patch, small woods or other permanent woody type of "crop."

5)  Fourth quarter dedicated to a 1/4 acre mini-pasture for grass for rabbits, hay, maybe straw, meadow, etc.  Use your imagination here.

Keep in mind that these are all just suggestions--wild pie-in-the-sky ideas really.  I was thinking that quarter acre parcels could be put to productive use.  By all means, modify these ideas as you see fit, or drop them altogether if that is best.

Another point worth mentioning:  I am somewhat obsessive about growing in my own mushroom compost and if you are interested, I strongly recommend trying it.  I do have a long-running thread I keep updated about my own experiences with Wine Cap mushrooms.  At first this seemed like a really daunting task, but really, mushrooms interface well with vegetables.  I grow the mushrooms not so much for the edible portion, but as a way to break down copious wood chips I have on my property.  They also make for incredibly fertile bedding--better by far than I have ever had with any chemical fertilizer or natural additive (such as manure).  I am not an expert by any means, but I can help you get started if you want and if you are interested I can give you a link.

I hope this helps, and if you just want to bounce ideas around, just ask.

Eric

Rebekah,

I hope you don’t mind the overload, but I did a quick calculation based on S Bengi’s 100x100 garden.

If you were breaking this into rows 100’ long, I figure you would need space to grow and space to walk.  S Bengi mentioned 20 100’ rows.  100/20=5 feet for both walking and planting space.  If you figure that you need 3’ to walk, then you have a 2’ wide growing space.  

2’x100’=200sqft x 20 rows=4000 sqft growing space.


If we change geometry a bit, add in cement blocks for raised beds (1.5 ft—actually 16” for two 8” blocks but I will round up) and increase the bed width to 4 feet we have 4.5 feet left over for walking.  In other words, a nice, wide path that might be nice for pulling a cart.  Now our numbers look something like this:  still 100’ long beds, but 4’ wide as opposed to 2’ wide and more walking space.  This will yield up 10 rows.

Actual growing space:

4’x100’=400sqft x 10 rows=4000 sqft growing space
This is the same growing space but with more maneuvering room.


One other option might look like the following:

5’ growing width (might be difficult to reach in further).  1.5’ block width, 4.5 walking rows.  This will yield up 9 rows.

Actual growing space:

5’x100’=500sqft x 9 rows=4500 sqft growing space.  This is the most growing space yet and still gives a comfortably wide walking row where you could pull a cart.  This option actually gives a bit over 1/10 acre actual growing space.  In garden terms, this is a huge amount of space.  

You could play around with numbers and maybe make the growing space wider at expense of walking space (5.5’ raised beds and 4’ walking rows would yield up 4950sqft).  But the wider the rows get, the harder to reach the center.  I have long arms and 3’ is about the limit for my comfortable reach.  In any case, a 100’ x 100’ garden can give a huge amount of actual food!

Eric