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what is 2 x 10/2 x framing?

 
pollinator
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Please see photo.
IMG_20210726_090427884-2.jpg
shed roof on shipping container detail
shed roof on shipping container detail
 
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That is 2 2x10's nailed together lifting one side of the shed roof so it slopes. The 2x6 joists sit on top,not sure what is on the down slope container edge making that joist to roof connection. When you see the x's in a rectangle that is representative of the end of a 2x4 or 2x10 any dimensional lumber. So that end view that you are pointing at is 2 2x10's with a 2x4 on top
 
denise ra
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So 10/2 is another way to write 2x10?

 
denise ra
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Or 2 x 10/(2 x) does the part in parentheses mean that the 2x10 is doubled?
 
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No it’s 2 pieces of lumber screwed together. In this case (2) 2x10 screwed together to make a 4x10

Edit yes you said it correct the second time
 
denise ra
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This is the 2x2 metal top  edge of the container. One of the supposed 2x10s rests on top of it and one is next to it. In order for the 2x4 on top to lay flat doesn't the 2x on top of the metal piece need to be a 2x8?

I don't understand what he means about the metal joist hangers. I don't understand what's hanging? It seems like everything is resting either on the container or on the 2Xs and nothing is hanging.

As for the low end of the shed roof he doesn't say how to attach that to the container. I am in a high wind area so I'm assuming brackets of some sort attached to the 2x2 at the meeting of the top inside edge of the container.
IMG_20210726_114702519.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG_20210726_114702519.jpg]
 
denise ra
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Oops, here's the picture
IMG_20210726_090427884-3.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG_20210726_090427884-3.jpg]
 
Robert Ray
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It looks like they are using a Joist hanger to attach the (2) 2x10's to the shipping container.  There are so many styles of joist hangers I'm not sure what they are specifying. They do mention welding so it sounds like something more robust than a galvanized style. Hurricane clips to affix the joists to the 2x10 here is a style of hurricane clip.
https://www.fastenersplus.com/products/simpson-h3z-hurricane-tie-zmax-finish?msclkid=e207a80d982115f27ca0c8f375941b43&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=%23z%20Shopping%20-%20Simpson%20Connectors%20-%20Straps%20%26%20Ties&utm_term=4580084407709908&utm_content=H%2FTSP%20Seismic%20%26%20Hurricane%20Ties%20-%20Zmax
 
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Joist hangers are pressed galvanised steel bits.
Shaped with a narrow base and tall vertical sides with square corners so a beam will slip in between the vertical faces.
It will have a bottom face that the beam will sit on.
Then there are sides coming out at right angles so the hanger can be fastened to a vertical surface.

The end result will be to have a beam butted against a vertical wall an protruding out at right angles.
All fixings are generally special nails.
 
denise ra
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That's what I think a joist hanger is also. But it makes no sense i to me in this situation. I've attached the framing plan photo.
I need to be able to support the 2x10s I was thinking about angle iron welded to the container for the 2x10 on the right in the drawing. But then they both need to be attached to the container very well since I'm in a windy area. And I can't figure out how to do that without screwing or bolting through the container roof which is the least sturdy part of the container.

I'm also attaching pictures of that square tubing which is about 2 and 1/4 in in both directions.
IMG_20210726_184422017.jpg
view from the middle of the long side where the 2x10s will go. the door is open on the container and that's what the silver thing sticking up are.
view from the middle of the long side where the 2x10s will go. the door is open on the container and that's what the silver thing sticking up are.
 
denise ra
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Oops, more photos.
IMG_20210726_220006589.jpg
how the roof is supposed to look
how the roof is supposed to look
IMG_20210726_220001017.jpg
other view of roof framing
other view of roof framing
IMG_20210726_185216856.jpg
what the two and a quarter inch square tubing looks like on the inside of the container.
what the two and a quarter inch square tubing looks like on the inside of the container.
 
denise ra
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The red is angle iron along the whole edge of the container, and the green is the 2x10 resting on the angle iron, and the blue is the 2x8 resting on the two and a quarter inch square edge of the container and the purple is the 2x4 on top. The angle iron supports the 2x10 while I'm putting the roof together but I still need something to really attach it all to the container. I don't know if this is a good idea or not.
IMG_20210726_184422017-3.jpg
[Thumbnail for IMG_20210726_184422017-3.jpg]
 
John C Daley
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I have a lot of questions;
I regularly build roofs onto shipping containers.
Because we can, and also because of the summers, I allow an overhang from the container to shade the walls.

Can beams span all the way across and extend past the edges of the container, forming the required roof and a veranda?
Can those beams be steel C section?
Could water be collected from the roof by tilting it?

Would you use that saved water?
 
John C Daley
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If you plan to insulate the sides, I have developed another technique that is simple and does not need special skills to apply.

It uses Z section, 4 inch insulation and steel sheet panels.
Much the same as may be used on the roof.
 
denise ra
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John, I am using insofast insulation which matches the corrugations of the container and is a styrofoam product with an embedded plastics stud that is glued to the container. On top of that I'm adding 2 in of foam board. I already have the in so fast on hand and have begun to adhere it. So there's no going back there. My plan is to use fiber cement board siding attached to a 2x4 furring on top of the insulation.
 
denise ra
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Can beams span all the way across and extend past the edges of the container, forming the required roof and a veranda? I'm in not just a high wind area but tornado alley. Which is why I am not extending the roof more. I will use Sun sails for shade.
Can those beams be steel C section? I have the tools to work with wood and if the C-section requires a welder the only welder available is slow and expensive.
Could water be collected from the roof by tilting it? I will message you a better picture of the roof line compared to the container, it is a tilted shed roof.

Would you use that saved water? I would use the water but setting that system up would have to happen later as it's not in my budget now.
 
denise ra
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I'll be using 10 ft boards to cross the container and have just a bit of overhang on the front side hopefully to protect the glass door from hail.
IMG_20210727_052215467-2.jpg
roofline
roofline
 
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I agree that joist hangers would not function well as usually installed to connect the 2x10 framing to the steel. Welding the bottom of the hangers to the steel would be the simplest and probably best way, but if welding is not reasonably available, then bolts through the steel tube are the next best option. The hangers would serve as cradles to place the 2x10 into, and then screw/nail through the sides into the wood. The standard flanges that attach the hanger to a wall would have to be flattened against the sides of the 2x10 in order to install the rest of the framing. I don't see that the number or spacing of joist hangers is specified, and this is important because they are not individually very strong. I would want them every couple of feet more or less in order to securely resist wind load trying to tear the roof off.

As for both 2x10s not bearing on the steel structure, I don't think that is an issue as long as the 2x10s are nailed together adequately; there is very little downward load on the assembly, while the strongest loads would probably be wind uplift in an emergency.
 
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If you are still confused on any parts or items, and if your local Home Depot/Lowes/lumber store has a good and knowledgeable employee in the building materials aisle they should be able to read you blueprints and get you what you need.  Your plans should have (hopefully) a list somewhere to identify clips or connectors needed for the project.  On my blueprints on the S-sheet (framing page) in the drawings they had symbols for required fasteners such as hurricane clips and joist fasteners and then on another page there was a list with the identifiers and the part description that was identified.  If you have detailed plans like this the legend page will have a ton of listed items but you will only need the ones identified in the drawing, and those symbols will be at the place on the wall where it is required.
If your drawing are not that detailed the helpful employee at the store could suggest where hurricane clips could be used to strengthen the roof connections to the walls, and other helpful ideas.

It's been 5 years since I did my framing so what I remember is kind of vague, maybe someone else here can expand on what I am trying to say.
 
denise ra
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Glenn herbert, so each 2x would have its own hanger? One set of hangers for the 2x10 on the right would be welded or bolted to the side of the container along the square tubing. For the 2x8 on the left The hanger would be bolted or welded on its bottom where it is resting on the two and a quarter inch square tubing. Is this what you are suggesting?
 
denise ra
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Michael fundaro, yes I paid a crummy architect and he did a crummy job for me so there are no proper schedules for these fasteners.
 
Glenn Herbert
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Considering that hurricane ties in ordinary wood framing happen every 16" along each wall, I would think that having one each foot, either on one 2x or staggered across both 2xs (2' on center along each 2x) would give the desired strength. I don't think it matters if both 2xs have hangers as long as they are nailed securely together so they act as one beam.

For that matter, since these 2xs are carrying no real load but just serving as spacers to lift that edge of the roof, and the other end of the rafters is attached directly to the steel forming a triangle, I would not even double the 2x10s because one is far more than strong enough to carry the load of being a spacer. I have no argument with doubling them up for extra strength, though. My take on the best way to tie the roof to the container would be to use steel strap (sold where joist hangers are displayed) which comes in 12", 18", etc. lengths with nailing holes, and attach those directly from the sides (or even wrapped around the tops) of each of the 2x6 rafters and down to the steel structure, and bolted or welded to that as desired.
 
Glenn Herbert
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I see a typo that was confusing me and probably others: where it says "2x10/2x FRAMING", it should be "2x10/2x8 FRAMING", meaning a 2x10 and a 2x8 side by side. The 2x8 sits on the steel tube and the 2x10 sits down beside the steel.
 
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Glenn said what I was gonna say.
The 2x10 runs along the front of the square tubing and the 2x8 runs along the top.
They stack these containers, there is plenty of strength in them but especially along the edges.
The square tubing is sitting right on top of the corrugated steel  wall, transferring the weight strait down to the bottom of the container.
If you use self tapping screws to affix the brackets you will not pierce the interior of  container, only the interior of the tubing.
Because that connection will be undercover and free draining, it should be well protected against corrosion.

Brackets will be sized to fit 2 x material, so the 2x8 and 2x10 will need separate brackets.
You will also need 1/2" plywood as as spacer  in between the 2x8 and the 2x10, to match the drawings.
The 2x  lumber and plywood can be nailed and glued together for maximum strength.

The visual details of this plan seem sound, while the written details seem kind of a mess.
 
denise ra
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What I'm wondering about now is planning for the insulation details. Do I insulate flat along the top of the container and can I use bat insulation or do I insulate between the rafters and use foam board? Or some combination of both? And my insulation sticks out from the container wall 5.75 in so I need my roof insulation to go over that so that I can put a membrane over the whole roof to wall insulation connection.
 
Michael Fundaro
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Glenn Herbert wrote:I see a typo that was confusing me and probably others: where it says "2x10/2x FRAMING", it should be "2x10/2x8 FRAMING", meaning a 2x10 and a 2x8 side by side. The 2x8 sits on the steel tube and the 2x10 sits down beside the steel.



EDIT: I miss understood and after looking over the plans my mind was confused so I deleted this incorrect information.

Sorry the architect screwed things up, but as i suggested before, finding someone knowledgeable, and also polite and helpful, to look over your plans and offer advice on how to adjust them and add ties and clips to make each connection stronger to handle high winds would be a wise idea.  Bring your plans to your local store and ask if they have someone who can look them over and give you advice.  Lead them on, let them think you want to buy from them but you may need more materials than the plan is calling for and you want to place one big order instead of buying one or two items at a time.  Tell them you want to make notes so you can go home and update your building materials list so you can come back and order the best materials for your project.  You don't have to buy from them, but they may earn your business, but at least hopefully they can walk you through the plans and help make improvements to make it stronger and maybe save your money.  Also, Home Depot, and probably Lowes and other lumber stores, will submit large orders/purchases through their Bid Room where they may take off 5% or maybe 10% or more off the retail price if you make one big purchase.  You do not need to be a professional builder or contractor, they will do this for anyone with an order of about $1500 or more, but sometimes they may do it on orders of about $1200 or maybe less.  Also, even though the Pro Desk is mainly for building materials like lumber and nails and roofing, etc. if you know you need other things you can add on lighting and plumbing windows and doors and other items to pad the price for possibly a better discount.  No guarantees, prices and discounts change week to week and month to month, but it is definitely worth asking.
 
denise ra
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Reply, thank you Michael this is a good idea. I went by Fastenal but they only work on gas field stuff out here so the guy couldn't help me. I'm going to start with my local lumber company and see if they can help me because it's an hour and a half drive to Lowe's or home depot and they won't deliver to me. But if it comes to it I will head that way.
 
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Batt insulation is cheaper, while foam insulation is airtight by itself and gets more insulation in a given thickness. With the rafters touching the container top at one end, fitting foam boards around them would be a bunch of picky work, so batts would be easier there. Maybe a layer of foam first over 3/4 of the container width, with fiberglass batts on top of those filling the space between rafters, would give the best results for the least effort.
 
denise ra
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I'm doing the math for the rafters and it's not a 2/12 roof like he says as far as I can figure. The  2x8 and the 2x10 are topped by a 1-1/2" 2x4 to give us 9.5 in of height. If the container is 8 ft across we can add another 1.5 in due to the width of the 2x10 giving us 97.5 in width. (9506.25 +  90.25) the square root of this is 98. Then I have a 1/12 roof. Is my math correct?

 
denise ra
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I could do this roof instead and save myself all the framing cuts, and the grief about how to attach the 2x8 and the 2x10. I'm more comfortable with this as far as sealling the insulation is concerned. But I'm not really sure what attaches this roof to the container so it doesn't blow away?
IMG_20210728_142355043.jpg
building science corporation insight - 078
building science corporation insight - 078
 
Michael Fundaro
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denise ra wrote:I could do this roof instead and save myself all the framing cuts, and the grief about how to attach the 2x8 and the 2x10. I'm more comfortable with this as far as sealing the insulation is concerned. But I'm not really sure what attaches this roof to the container so it doesn't blow away?



Just a guess, but it looks like that roof in this example is mostly secured to the top of the container by gravity.  How are you planning to attach the exterior walls/sheathing to the outside of the container?  Will you drill through the metal wall and use screws or lag bolts to secure the studs to the outside?  IF so, place the vertical studs on top of the corrugated sides and on the high side have them  extend 16" above the metal roof of the container, that will give you your 2/12 pitch.  2" per foot for 8 feet wide container is 16" rise on the high side.  You can then run a crossmember, maybe a 2x6 or 2x8 across the top of the studs to secure the roof beams.  On the low side attach the crossmember at the top of the studs even with the roof of the container
I think if I were doing this, and I will eventually when I can start turning my storage container into a 2 room casita, I would glue a layer or two of foam board insulation on top of the roof then use blown in insulation on top of the foam board to get me the extra R-value.  The foam board should be a vapor barrier to reduce condensation on the metal roof.  I think placing fiberglass batting or blown in insulation on the metal will attract and retain moisture.
 
John C Daley
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Denise, I read drawings often.
After following your story I am confused.
Can you have a photo which includes all the roof fixing and timber sizes please?

Can I ask why you have included details about a different roof with layers of insulation?

Is this roof being built to meet a building permit?

In my experience everything seems complicated now.
What do you mean by this

And my insulation sticks out from the container wall 5.75 in so I need my roof insulation to go over that so that I can put a membrane over the whole roof to wall insulation connection.

. Are you talking about the wall insulation that you are putting on the outside?

The important issue is making sure the whole roof is not pulled off the container by winds. Rooves never just sit on a shipping containers.
Special fittings are required, but they are not had to get.

If the roof frame can be built properly, the issue of being airtight, not having the insulation blown around and actually working as insulation can all be sorted.
 
denise ra
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Michael fundaro and John c daley, I'm insulating on the outside with Insofast for shipping containers. It matches the corrugations of the container and it has an embedded plastic stud that's very strong. You glue it to the container with PL loctite 3x. On top of that I'm adding 2 in of foam board which is why my insulation depth will be 4 in and then on top of that I'm using a 2x4 furring strip so that adds another one and a half inch rain Gap and then quarter inch Hardie board for a total of 5.75 in out from the side of the container walls. The adhesive means that no intrusions are needed to attach the insulation to the container.
I will use strapping and or hurricane ties to hold the roof to the container and those connections will only be into the two and a quarter inch square beam along the edge of the containers, so not into the container per se.
There are no building codes. The only information I have is from the drawing that I have that I will reattach.. I included another roof because I'm wondering if it would be a and easier roof for me to install, but I'm not truly sure how it would be attached to the container-though I see now there are screws or bolts that go into the container from this second roof.
IMG_20210728_142118354.jpg
container drawings, no wood or fastener schedule provided
container drawings, no wood or fastener schedule provided
 
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It looks like I will need a bird mouth cut at both the top and bottom of the rafters, correct?

Also, the slope of this roof really is 1 / 12. Is that going to safely shed water if I detail it correctly? Lately we've been getting 3 in of rain at a time.

I'm going to buy the materials this afternoon.
 
John C Daley
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Its a lot clearer now.
1/12 is ok for drainage
I dont think you need 2 beams bolted to each other to hold the roof rafters up to create the slope.
That insulation shaped to suit the container sounds fantastic.

To fasten the 10 x 2 beam to the roof, I suggest 4 inch x 1/4 inch angle brackets screwed into the perimeter section of the roof  at 2 foot intervals and have the beam
sit on the screw tops with the other side of the angle going up the face of the beam and bolted through the beam.

The 6x2 roof joists can be bolted to the 10 x 2 with lengths of angle iron 12 inches long with holes facing the beam faces.
The same 6x2 beams can be attached to the lower side of the container with angle iron brackets , except through the side face of the timber and the other side of the bracket into the perimeter beam.
Any overhang needed to cover the wall cladding can be established during this process.
The roof battens that hold the roof sheeting down can be screwed with appropriate hurricane screws to the 6 x 2 roof joists .

Instead of cement sheet cover bits, I would use steel flashing.
 
Glenn Herbert
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I agree with John that a single 2x10 along the high edge would be fully adequate to support the roof. Rather than use heavy brackets to fasten 2x10 to rcontainer and 2x6 to 2x10, I would advise steel strap ties from top of 2x6 all the way to the container. Something like the LSTA21 on this page: https://www.strongtie.com/straightstraps_strapsandties/lsta_strap/p/lsta

Bend the top over the 2x6, nail through every hole to develop full strength, and bolt to the container.  Use joist hanger nails, which are shorter but thicker than common nails, and are designed for this purpose.

I don't know what code in tornado country calls for, but for the roof framing shown, straps like these used at both ends of each rafter would withstand 100 pounds per square foot of uplift over the whole roof, which is more than code-specified residential floor loading in magnitude.
 
denise ra
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The insulation guy has also been trying to help me with the roof. He suggested a knee wall out of 2x4s instead of the 2x10. Then I could get the roof up to a 2/12 or 3/12 slope and this would be less expensive than the big boards. Also, he did suggest 2x12 boards for rafters on 8 ft spacing - I would use four of them on 5 ft spacing and that way I can get in enough insulation for the roof. He said withth purlins and without plywood sheathng I could attach a metal roof like a pole barn. He too recommended straps or hurricane ties. Could I still use the strapping on the 2x4 knee wall? I read the fine print on the strap that Glenn Herbert suggested and it says no welding and no bending, and I think that particular one is only recommended for wood on wood. I'm looking for metal to Wood connectors. They're very picky about how they want you to use their connectors.
 
John C Daley
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So what is a knee wall, in your part of the world, please?

Here a knee wall may be 3 feet tall and fit between a roof rafter and the floor of an attic to finish the area up stairs off without tight narrow wedged shaped spaces.
I think any wall will consume a lot of time to make compared with laying out the single large beam.

Also 2 x 12 may be very expensive, in Australia I would use 2 x 4 inch roof joists at 5 ft centres and with 31/2 x 2 inch purlins running across those'

wikipedia angle brackets
These described are small, but they can be 10 inches long or more.
Structural angle brackets
This is the sort of brackets I am talking about.
Pole Barn Metal roofing

The most commonly known type of metal roof [ in USA ] is a pole barn metal.
This is what we call an exposed fastener metal roof.
The pole barn metal is fasted with the screws exposed to the sun and weather which in turn can become damaged.



I can say I have used this form of roofing in Australia for 45 years.
It to would be the most common form of roofing outside the big cities.
We have no issues with the screws failing at all.

This is the type of roofing I was expecting you to be using.

skillion roof on a container
This video has a slightly different way of setting the roof into place. But the brackets etc are what I wanted to show.
 
denise ra
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John, can you show me a drawing of what you recommend for the container roof please?
 
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It is framing lumber also called dimensional lumber. Spray foam insulation is the easiest way to insulate the container. Insulation is important as it helps you prevent extreme cold and heat. It will be better if you can contact the shipping container modification team you know.
 
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