Food forest project with high clay soil, best way to plant fruit trees?

Hi permies,  I am creating a food forest area with fruit trees, but my land has high levels of clay in it, which is a problem when it comes to drainage for fruit trees.

I had concluded I would need to make mounds (buy earth) to elevate the trees high enough so that the roots don't get bogged too much in water, compared to the hole I would otherwise dig into the high clay soil (I saw https://www.youtube.com/c/Selfsufficientme do this). To simply dig a hole and plant would logically make a nice basin for water to collect.

Do you have insights to offer into the best strategy for how to plant fruit trees on high clay soil?

I am planting in a few weeks. Planting in hugels are not an option because I don't want the sinking to affect them negatively.

Thanks a bunch! Peace.

Do you have the option to plant on a hill or slope to allow for some amount of drainage?  I have extremely high clay content soil with almost no organic matter and recently put in my orchard.  As such, I don't know how well this is going to shake out, but the trees are budding out at least, so hopefully I haven't killed them yet.   The benefit of having high clay content is that the soil retains water very effectively which should in theory help reduce your watering needs during times of little rain.

https://permies.com/t/178072/set-orchard-success-hill-clay

Here is the land view from north-west to north-east panoramic:






The evergreen trees are going to get cut on the north side, don't need root competition and acidity. It slopes downward there. The only flattish area is near the west end, which slopes downward to the center slightly, then slopes up slightly towards the east, before falling more again going further east to the end of the field (which is where I won't be planting anything (for now), as the water moves through there to escape).

Here is what the soil looks like at the upper part of the south side, where it doesn't get bogged with water, after drying out a bit:



And under all that dead tall grass, this is what the soil looks like:



You can see I smeared/rubbed it and the high clay content shows.

Laurel Jones wrote:Do you have the option to plant on a hill or slope to allow for some amount of drainage?  I have extremely high clay content soil with almost no organic matter and recently put in my orchard.  As such, I don't know how well this is going to shake out, but the trees are budding out at least, so hopefully I haven't killed them yet.   The benefit of having high clay content is that the soil retains water very effectively which should in theory help reduce your watering needs during times of little rain.

https://permies.com/t/178072/set-orchard-success-hill-clay

Even if planting on a slope or slightly sloping... the hole would collect more water than the surrounding clay area and cause a problem as I see it. That's why I'm thinking of mounds. I'm more worried about too much water, than too little ;) I hope it works out for you.

Kris, have you heard of the Ellen White Method for planting trees?

That method might offer a solution:



https://permies.com/t/160325/Ellen-White-Method-tree-planting

I have not tried this method though I find it very interesting

Happy tree planting to you..

My land is heavy clay.  I dig a hole with a digging fork when I plant trees.  If you use a shovel, and makes a slick, packed side that I'm concerned will hold too much water like you mentioned.  A digging fork doesn't do that.  If you use a shovel, as I always did in the past, you can make the hole kind of star shaped and then scratch the sides well with the edge of the shovel, a stick, whatever, to keep the roots from circling when the hit the slick spot.

That said, I have apples, peaches, apricots, cherries, plums, paw paw, persimmon, any number of bushes and berry plants.  All are doing great.  I never found clay soil to be the hindrance other people seem to think it is for trees.  I never add amendments to the hole for reasons you also mentioned.  If you dig a hole, however large, and then put in a bunch of compost, soil with less clay, fertilizer, or the like and plant the tree in it, you effectively create a fertile bathtub.  The tree will grow well in the new improved soil, but when it hits the "edges" of the hole, the soil is harder to penetrate, so the roots will circle around in the fertile soil and will either die, or be permanently stunted.  If you use the native soil, the tree is used to growing in that same soil, so there are no sides to the hole, it's all the same.  I have had much better results since I started planting this way.

Trace Oswald wrote:The tree will grow well in the new improved soil, but when it hits the "edges" of the hole, the soil is harder to penetrate, so the roots will circle around in the fertile soil and will either die, or be permanently stunted.  If you use the native soil, the tree is used to growing in that same soil, so there are no sides to the hole, it's all the same.  I have had much better results since I started planting this way.

Yes I saw that in a video, scratch at the sides, and mostly use native soil or else the tree won't want to grow into it. Thanks for reminding me! It's good to know you have had success in clay soil. I will loosen the surrounding native soil under and on the sides as well to give it an easier time to start with. Unless that's a bad idea?

Kris Nelson wrote:

Trace Oswald wrote:The tree will grow well in the new improved soil, but when it hits the "edges" of the hole, the soil is harder to penetrate, so the roots will circle around in the fertile soil and will either die, or be permanently stunted.  If you use the native soil, the tree is used to growing in that same soil, so there are no sides to the hole, it's all the same.  I have had much better results since I started planting this way.

Yes I saw that in a video, scratch at the sides, and mostly use native soil or else the tree won't want to grow into it. Thanks for reminding me! It's good to know you have had success in clay soil. I will loosen the surrounding native soil under and on the sides as well to give it an easier time to start with. Unless that's a bad idea?

That is the way I do it.

Kris Nelson wrote:

Laurel Jones wrote:Do you have the option to plant on a hill or slope to allow for some amount of drainage?  I have extremely high clay content soil with almost no organic matter and recently put in my orchard.  As such, I don't know how well this is going to shake out, but the trees are budding out at least, so hopefully I haven't killed them yet.   The benefit of having high clay content is that the soil retains water very effectively which should in theory help reduce your watering needs during times of little rain.

https://permies.com/t/178072/set-orchard-success-hill-clay

Even if planting on a slope or slightly sloping... the hole would collect more water than the surrounding clay area and cause a problem as I see it. That's why I'm thinking of mounds. I'm more worried about too much water, than too little ;) I hope it works out for you.

I guess my idea was to loosen a drainage channel leading out from the hole.  I remember now that you're the person with the swampy field also, and in that situation, if you don't get long dry periods, you're probably safe building on top of a mound.  

Laurel Jones wrote:

Kris Nelson wrote:

Laurel Jones wrote:Do you have the option to plant on a hill or slope to allow for some amount of drainage?  I have extremely high clay content soil with almost no organic matter and recently put in my orchard.  As such, I don't know how well this is going to shake out, but the trees are budding out at least, so hopefully I haven't killed them yet.   The benefit of having high clay content is that the soil retains water very effectively which should in theory help reduce your watering needs during times of little rain.

https://permies.com/t/178072/set-orchard-success-hill-clay

Even if planting on a slope or slightly sloping... the hole would collect more water than the surrounding clay area and cause a problem as I see it. That's why I'm thinking of mounds. I'm more worried about too much water, than too little ;) I hope it works out for you.

I guess my idea was to loosen a drainage channel leading out from the hole.  I remember now that you're the person with the swampy field also, and in that situation, if you don't get long dry periods, you're probably safe building on top of a mound.  

Yes, that's me :D but that was the other field. This field is higher up, with one low end I'm ignoring for now. I'm just thinking of a hole and it not draining either. The extra loosening of the soil underneath and on the sides would help a bit and for the roots to go through...

So you were thinking of a drainage tile going somewhere to get the water out? Hmmm, on the sloping downward north side I could maybe do that, but that's a lot more digging and buying material to get it to drain... maybe it is necessary though so that I don't waste money on trees that die.

Loosening up the soil 1-2 ft under the tree is another possibility, but will it still be a problem as the water will more easily go there and collect, with the harder clay under that loose soil creating a floor that is hard to drain. It would provide more drainage for a time... I guess it depends on how much water falls.

Is spring snow thawing and collecting a lot of water in a hole for a time, the same issue as summer time drainage issues? I suspect so...

I think I need to dig a hole 2-3 ft deep, fill it back up with the looser soil than it was before, and poor water in to see how fast it drains. This would give me an  idea at how feasible it is to plant in loosened clay soil. And do another experiment with mixing in some organic matter or quality soil in that hole and testing to see the drainage at the bottom. Either way it will drain away into the 2-3 ft quicker, but once it hits the harder clay, its sticking around for a lot longer...

Anne Miller wrote:Kris, have you heard of the Ellen White Method for planting trees?

That method might offer a solution:



https://permies.com/t/160325/Ellen-White-Method-tree-planting

I have not tried this method though I find it very interesting

Happy tree planting to you..

Thanks for mentioning this, I'll definitely look into it!

My mate lives in an area similar to yours.
Summer its concrete and in the wet season you are growing by walking due to the clay build up under your shoes.

He failed with all kind of ways to plant his trees.
Even put them in the ground with a drainage pipe underneath.

The only way that worked was planting the trees on huge mounts of 1 meter height by 5 meter wide (3x15 ft) good draining soil.
His orchard is now 25 years old and his fruit trees (Cherries, Apples, Pears and Plums) in full production.

See Hes wrote:My mate lives in an area similar to yours.
Summer its concrete and in the wet season you are growing by walking due to the clay build up under your shoes.

He failed with all kind of ways to plant his trees.
Even put them in the ground with a drainage pipe underneath.

The only way that worked was planting the trees on huge mounts of 1 meter height by 5 meter wide (3x15 ft) good draining soil.
His orchard is now 25 years old and his fruit trees (Cherries, Apples, Pears and Plums) in full production.

Thank you for confirming my original conclusion is probably best and safest way to proceed. It seems the safest way to ensure the trees thrive.

Do you know what quality of soil was used? I think I can buy some black + brown earth mix, or sand + brown earth mix, and mix it with some quality earth, rather than just primo compost + earth mixes that cost more. Top it off with some quality earth mixes or RCW mulch for the nutrients to slowly seep in. What do you think?

Here are some more images to get a closer look at the issue:

Digging a hole with a spade shovel to do a jar soil test:



The resulting chunk of soil I pulled out, about 1ft deep:



Another look into the hole:



Moving only a bit of soil, the water is already visible coming into the hole on a day with no rain (but it's the April showers month so the soil is wet through and through when touching it)



There are many worms present in the upper layer:





The top crumbly layer with worms and roots in it:

Just mound up! Roots need air and won't get that in dense clay... Worked for me all fruit trees thriving over super dense clay in mounds.
   is an Ellen white example in case anyone's curious

The photos confirm that its very wet hence root rot is a high chance or almost guarantee to happen when the trees getting bigger.

Sure growing on high mounds is the only way to avoid that.

Hi. I live in Virginia where there is heavy red clay soil. A slope is best and would require not much changes. I've had great success with peaches, pears, and cherries. Apples have gotten blight from the wet soil though, and none survived for me. Make sure you plant hardy varieties customized for your area. I dig the hole 2-3x's larger than needed, at least 2.5 feet across. Then mix sand, river silt, or bagged topsoil to the clay soil to lighten it up so it drains better and doesn't crack and bake so hard. You can also toss a couple handfuls medium/small sized gravel into the bottom of each hole you dig. (I'm lazy and stupid so I pull a bucket from the driveway. XD) I will fill 2/3ds of the hole, water heavily, pack, add more dirt, repeat.  Then add the tree, then bury the roots with the same type mix. Tamp down. Add more dirt, gently tamp, etc. Flip the grass clods upside down, so they die and make a spongy top. I will also throw down porous fabric/weedbarrier and then mulch around my trees after planting. Here, it goes back and forth from being very wet to suddenly being very dry. When clay dries hard, water will run off and be wasted which is just as bad as it staying wet for too long. My orchard hillside has a natural spring underground so the taproot can reach water easily, and this is beneficial during the dog days of summer, and does not cause disease. Standing rainwater from oversaturation, I think is a much worse problem. Good luck!