Sandpoint Summary

I know there's a bunch of Sandpoint threads out there already and I usually like keeping an archive going on a topic, but last I tracked them down things were spread around and messy. Besides, Gir bot wants me to start more threads for the scavenger hunt so what choice do I really have?

Last fall I dug a 3 ft hole, bought the cheapest well equipment (1.25" pipe) I could find from the local big box hardware store, and started pounding a sandpoint in the hole. I checked at a local contractor supply place and their sandpoint well equipment was around 5x more expensive, didn't look 5x more durable, and some of it was out of stock. I figured I would probably mess something up, ruin the first set, and then know where to upgrade to better equipment for the next attempt. All I'm looking for is a few gallons a day.

I also decided to go against recommendations and put in a couple 10 ft pipe sections instead of four 5 footers, thinking I would just pound it from a step ladder, save some money, and have less potential points of failure in the pipe. Manufacturer recommendations said 25' max with 1.25" pipe, and use 2" if going any deeper. Going by height above my creek, it seemed a good chance of hitting water before 25'.

Pounding from my cheap stepladder was precarious but doable. However, pounding started being very difficult around 8 feet down. The pipe took on an angle and soon stopped progressing. I noticed the pounding cap had stripped the threads entirely off the top of the first 10 foot pipe section. This is when someone told me I was supposed to have a short sacrificial section and coupler on top of whatever pipe I am driving. I tried to pull it out, eventually borrowing a come along and hooking it to an A-frame made from pallets over the hole. The pallet started to break and I put some 2x6s between the pallet and chain. The chain just atarted to press into the boards. The sandpoint was not coming out that way so there it sat through winter.

Forward to two weeks ago when the ground finally thawed. I got a hand auger and drilled down from about a foot over at a slight angle. A half foot short of the tip of the point, I started to grind against what I'm guessing is stone. I collapsed the ground between the holes and pulled the sand all out. The pipe would wobble and go up and down around an inch, but not release.

I did the same thing on the other side. The pipe seemed just as stuck. An hour of cumulative jiggling and it eventually gave up and released. There was some light scrape marks on the sandpoint, but I couldn't tell what was from the auger and what was from rocks.

I got some extra extensions for my auger and went back at the hole. It was a struggle to get past what ever stoney stuff is around 9 or 10 feet, but from there it has been smooth. Around 17 feet the sand started coming up pretty wet. Around 18 or 19 it has started coming up with definite moisture in it, and it seems to be collapsing such that I can't go any further with the auger.

Does this sound like a promising spot to do the sand point with a pitcher pump on top? How are the prospects of pounding all the way right next to this hole? If I moved to a lower spot closer to the creek should I auger first there or just pound the whole way?

How much deeper than the current ~20' should I go? I have one good 10' section and 3 5' sections, so I could go 25' with 3' (length of point) above ground for the pump without buying more sections. Will using a 10' section make the whole length less stable to pound than using all 5' sections, or are there any other disadvantages?

By your own admission, you dont take advice, so I hope I am not wasting my time.
The longer pipes are less stable to hit. Particularly at 1.25".
Water tables rarely are at creek level, they usually drain to a creek.
Now you have an auger hole, ask about dropping a 'casing' in, maybe a heavy walled pipe with holes at the lower end
to allow water to dribble in. Then you suction pipe can be easily dropped down.

The thing is I've found trying to follow every bit of free advice on the internet to be slightly less productive than playing the whack-a-mole game at Chuck E Cheese. Instructions translated from Chinese entrepreneurs fall into the same category. Without context for the advice it is just random pieces of a jigsaw puzzle sitting in a box that I need to slide around to try and fit together into the picture of a successful project in front of me. Most of the time there is no way to know where or if what someone else is writing about is in fact relevant to the specifics of a situation, but exchanging information on the topic will hopefully help both parties understand more even if it isn't a simple slam-dunk solution.

The water table thing fits what I recall learning about it, barring sheets of bedrock and artesian well stuff which doesn't seem in evidence here. I didn't know if extremely sandy ground might affect that somehow, but my probe hole data fits your description.

The casing stuff came up in one of the threads by Mike Haasl here, who has been assisting me on the property. I'm not sure if he ever incorporated the PVC one he was considering, but I'm not using plastics in my infrastructure here. I can look into metal. Does it replace the sand point, facilitate it, or just make it easier to recover from a failed hole?

We ended up speculating after last fall's difficulties at the rock/gravel level that the problem was the 10' section flexing or vibrating too much. But, if I am dropping the pipe into a hole pre-drilled past the point of heavy resistance already and then pounding into what I'm reading should be pure sand, would the extra rigidity help much?

Bottom line is I have the materials in my possession to go ~25' in with a 1.25" sandpoint, pipe and hand pump using one 10' section of pipe. Is moving forward with that likely to fail, is there low hanging fruit I'm not seeing if I change something in my approach at this point? I'm not afraid to fail and come back at it from another angle, I just don't want to waste time, money and effort if there is a clear problem in the current approach.

Also, I'm gathering that the deeper I go the better and more reliable the water will be, but that a hand pump on 1.25" pipe loses functionality at more than 25'. So I should use all the pipe to go to 25' even if I find water above that, and not use more. Is the limit a function of the pump design (IE a better pump will pay off here), the pipe size, a combo...?

A couple of things;
- any suction pump will not pull water up from about 25' because the water vapourises and just will not move.
- a hand pump with a 'bucket' at the bottom will work, but you are actually lifting the weight of any water.
- at greater depths you need to have a unit that pushes the water up. IE bucket like a windmill, or a jet pump where air helps push the water.
Pipe rigidity.
Any pipe that is going to be hit, needs rigidity to maintain its shape and allow any force applied to go down the full length.
By example if you have a 1/4 inch pipe 5 feet long and hit it at the top, with a 25lb hammer the pipe may buckle.
As the width and wall thickness increases so does it rigidity, length is also a factor.
The original 1/4 " pipe 4 inches long may go into the ground, the 5ft section bent.

same with the 1.25 inch pipe, at 10ft if shakes around, at 5ft it remains ridgid.
Sometimes you can go deeper and pass through a layer that has not water below it!!

With the help of Mighty Mike (and our trusty sidekick Wisconsin Paul), we tackled the sandpoint well yesterday.

We decided to use the 10' section and added one of the 5'ers to it at the start. Turns out a recent storm had washed a bunch of excess sand and stuff under the protective boards and down the hole I augured last week. The pipe went in to about the gravel level and I had to pull out the step ladder and pound it in from there. Not being dense fill there wasn't much problem this time, even with the 10' section in there. Once we pounded it in the first foot or two, we were able to push it the rest of the way with our weight until the point was about 16' below ground level.

We dropped some string in and it came up with about 4' of water on it. We screwed the cheapo pitcher pump on top and after a few minutes of pumping started to bring up some wonderful latte substance. No one had the desire to taste it, but it seemed like a good sign that we were getting more than the priming water back. After 10-15 gallons of pumping, it started to run clear. Success!

At this point the pump sitting 2 feet off the ground is less than ideal. I'd like to put another 5' section on and pound it in another 2-3 feet so the pitcher is at standing level for pumping. Also, as of 2 weeks ago there was still ice in the hole as I was augering. We had a couple of heavy rain events in the last few days. I'm guessing the water table is still higher than usual from the spring thaw, though again the sub-soil is almost pure sand so it could be it drains almost immediately. Is there much risk of going 'through' the table with a few more feet?

The extra 5' section would make 20' of pipe, with the 3' sand point on the end. The pump instructions say it maxes out at 20'. Would that be from top of water table to the base of the pump, or from the bottom of the closed pipe sections to the pump? As long as the top of the sand point is within the water table, will the water flow up into the pipe to it's outside level, like sticking a straw into a glass of water?

It seems like all the formulas say this will work, but I'd like to know how close I am operating to the edge of the envelope...

One side question. The pump instructions talk about adding a foot valve to maintain the prime. I didn't do this because I wasn't sure about being able to keep the ground in the area in question frost free all year. But the instructions say "If you use a foot valve, you can prevent the pump and pipe from freezing only by removing the pump from the well and keeping the water in the well below the frost line." Mike and I were confused about how simply removing the pump would allow the pipe to drain through a foot valve. Is this some sort of mistranslation/confusion on the part of the pump manufacturer? Is there a simple way to drain the pipe while the foot valve is in place?

I'm guessing I'm not going to be able to install a foot valve without pulling the whole thing out, but will probably want a second 'v2' pump here at some point...

Should I be able to find something to seal pipe connections that doesn't have PTFE in it? The non-tape options at the big box hardware store here advertised PTF or something ominously similar, seems there is a behind the scenes war between gick monger corporations and power hungry, worry wart authoritarians afoot- what are the available facts...?

What does this mean?

or something ominously similar, seems there is a behind the scenes war between gick monger corporations and power hungry, worry wart authoritarians afoot- what are the available facts...?

Go to a Plumbers Supply there are a number of jointing pastes available.
La-Co jointing compound

I'm not sure if foot valves join up with sand points.  They tend to be for a pipe you put down into a casing or a pond.  I think, perhaps, maybe, for a sand point you'd want a check valve up near the pump.  Then it might hold water up in the pipe from above.  You could put a tee under it with a plug that you can remove to let air into the pipe for winter.

If you did have a check valve underground by the sand point, when you remove the pump for winter you could stick a small hose down in the pipe and suck out enough water to get you below the frost line.

The pump lift measurement is from the top of the water table in the pipe to the spout of the pump.  So if the point is 8' down into the water table (and not beyond it into some clay), your 23' assembly would only count as 15' for the pump lift math.

John C Daley wrote:What does this mean?

I've heard generally inflammatory statements about PTFE, PFOA, PFOS, and the PTA. Can't keep the supposed dangers and miracle cures straight any more. Any toxicity alleged with PTFE beyond burning it at extremely high temps?

Go to a Plumbers Supply there are a number of jointing pastes available.
La-Co jointing compound

Thanks, I'll try more stores. Looks like we get to choose between lead, PTFE, and Titanium Dioxide?

Maybe there's a way to solder the threaded joints together but I kinda doubt it (lead-free solder).