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Valerie Dawnstar
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Location: North Central New York
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Has any one seen this movie yet? Just saw it today. It's one of those with some disturbing footage (not the worst I've seen) of what all is wrong with civilization. Strongly inspired by Derrick Jensen, author of "End Game". I have to take issue with the theme of the movie advocating the only real way to change what is wrong is by brute force. Sure, there is a lot of stuff that is, in my personal humble opinion, really &%$*-ed up and we seem to be heading off the deep end but - well, isn't that what permaculture is trying to avoid? Both the world ending as we know it and the violence. I believe it has been proven over and over again that we are a compassionate species. It has even been proven that we are not the only compassionate species. And we are all in this together. I think this last is the most important part.
 
Danny Carm
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I haven't seen it, but I'm pretty sure Jensen is a supporter of permaculture so it's not surprising that you would make the connection between the two. They're very related.
 
Joshua Myrvaagnes
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I wanted to post something about what the end game is.

I have read and I believe it to be true that we will all leave the planet together when we leave it, and we will leave it better than we found it.

It's helpful to start with this and think backward. For example, I look at someone opposing my ideas, arguing for a solution that sounds to me like it moves us backwards rather than forwards, and I can see or imagine who they will be in 200 years. Let's say this is an INTJ person, different personality type from me fundamentally. An engineer rather than an artsy idealist. But the INTJ of 200 years from today will be looking at how to engineer in a partnership dynamic, rather than a depletion or win-lose dynamic.

The other thing is that civilization is like a big alcoholic hitting bottom. The way to respond to an alcoholic is with compassion (not throwing a shoe at them if you can restrain yourself) and with full allowing of the natural consequences of their choices. Not enabling.

You see the Bill Wilson (founder of AA) not as the villain drinker and breaker of promises but as the founder of a worldwide fellowship of people helping people. You look for the best in the person, you focus on that, you see that that's who they really are.

History has a direction; it is not static. If you are thinking we need to move forward and others are in a reactionary denial, your two opinions aren't of equal weight. One is more accurate than the other. You don't want to trade your opinion for that of the other or water it down because someone nay-says your opinion.

At the same time, each person has their own timing. People are growing. It is a long process, it's never done and there's never a time to draw iron conclusions. It's right for them to make their mistakes. Like a parent who has to watch a teenager get into trouble and sometimes pain to figure things out for herself, you have to inhibit the urge to control the other.

And at the end we all work together and leave the planet together for a new planet, one we have created through our collective imagining.

This transforms the idea of ascension from its usual expression, as I understand it (there are the elect and the un-elect, and you have to follow a bunch of rules to get chosen).

The real end of history on this planet is moving forward to a next planet all together, all of us, with all our differences and different perspectives and different ways of thinking and perceiving.

If there is any "unelection" or selection, it is a self-selection process on an individual basis. (By the way, I take it as given that this is a couple of thousand years from now, and also that we have repeated earthly existences individually).

What are the consequences of this in a concrete example?

Let's say we look at sexism in a progressive or change-making-oriented movement. The loud voices in the movement are all male or mostly male, the quiet voices seem to get heard less and less over time and drop off. Some try to argue that this is just the way things are. In the long run, however, what you can do is trust that the system as a whole on which sexism is based is going away. Bit by bit it is simply sloughing off. The change, in other words, is adding up to something so comprehensive that trying to hash out individual slights and quotas will not be necessary. People won't need to freak out about not having a seat at the table; instead they'll simply go and build another table, or 20,000. Tables that fit us better rather than our trying to change ourselves to fit the table.

This is one of the elements of this period of history, that every community and everyone in a community gets to make their own table. I suppose we always could, but that fact is more visible now than ever. It may not happen in the next five minutes; over a century though it will be obvious, in hindsight it will look obvious.

This may or may not make sense to anyone else. It's in the context of Steiner and Penny Kelly's writings. For me it's become common sense, the lense through which I see what goes on or return to looking through so that I can weather the challenges and build momentum on a positive vision of where my heart wants things to go.


Well, having written this I guess it all hinges on the belief that we do live multiple lives, which isn't the commonest view at this time in the West, but it's my meaningless drivel so I'll drivel any way I please, I hope it helps someone feel more optimistic or soothed.
 
Ross Raven
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His Star Wars analogy always makes me chuckle, even years later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWh-J_mvYSE

"Ya. We got some press"
 
Ross Raven
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You may appreciate this on shades of the green movement.
Me. I am definitely a Dark Greeny.

http://www.generationalpha.org/shades-of-green/
 
Alder Burns
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I think that many well-known permaculture teachers have taken pains to distance themselves from Deep Green Resistance and Derrick Jensen....mostly over the issues of violence and sabotage.
 
Valerie Dawnstar
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Location: North Central New York
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I am heartened to hear of an upbeat and encouraging outlook. I think it is the sensible thing to do to be human; that is, for us to hold each other up and be encouraging. There are more than enough people endeavoring to make you sad so, it seems to me that we need to balance that out with more of us looking at a positive outcome. To some of us this comes natural. It is as simple as taking another breath. But, speaking for myself, even I need to withdraw from time to time when all around me seems determined to beat me into the ground. Those are the moments that having another person smile or say a friendly word or show some kindness are balm on a weary soul. And I appreciate it.
 
His brain is the size of a cherry pit! About the size of this ad:
11 Podcast Review of Botany in a Day by Thomas Elpel
https://permies.com/wiki/24823/digital-market/digital-market/Podcast-Review-Botany-Day-Thomas
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