are there currently millions of permaculture millionaires? (the story of Gert)

I just noticed that this thread has more than a quarter of a million views.

paul wheaton wrote:I just noticed that this thread has more than a quarter of a million views.

It's most definitely worth it.  I think out of all threads on permies.com, I share it most often.

Where is this place where Gert doesn't have to pay for property taxes?

Holly Magnani wrote:Where is this place where Gert doesn't have to pay for property taxes?

I think that both ferd and gert will be paying all their taxes.  

What makes you think that gert is not paying taxes?

It's exactly the same with holistic health. Or the natural diet for the species. Falls on deaf ears or is ridiculed. The MDs or vets are the specialists aren't they? But many don't stop to think who trains them (big p-harmer) and the pet food industry. It seems we're slow learners. Or perhaps worried by being different from the rest.

Dougan Nash wrote:I agree with the sentiment of Gert, but she just conveniently started with a few acres. I know there are a lot of people like me who want to dive right in but land is expensive. I am also (like many in my generation) burdened with student loan debt. Half of what my wife and I make goes towards minimum payments. We were young and dumb and 8 years later, no sign of it ending.

If I took all the money I am paying retroactively for school and could put it into land, I would be a Gert. However, I cannot find a permaculture solution to this debt. I have tried government aid, and working with my private loans. Neither work. Bankruptcy won't even erase it. I probably won't even be approved for a mortgage until I'm in my 40s.

There's a system called Cestui Que Vie you might like to explore.  I know little about it but this video goes into some of it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=7h70TDZ4PkE

I've heard about Gert a number of times.  The concept takes my brain in many different directions...so there's a significant risk this post could be quite scattered.

With respect to millionaires, a saying has stuck with me for a number of years - money makes good people better and bad people worse.  I think that makes a lot of sense and I've seen it go both directions.  The key is to find and surround yourself with good people, regardless of how much money they have.  That would be community, or in the language of the 8 forms of capital, social capital.

Language is powerful.  Sometimes a tweak in how we say things can have a profound impact on our psychology.  My present career path is in financial services.  I cringe when I hear someone say "live below your means".  I much prefer "live within your means".  To me, living below comes across as less somehow.  Living within is more about understanding where you are and what you have, assessing your needs (versus wants), and making a decision about where to exchange your financial capital.  As I was preparing to go to university, my father gave me a piece of advice that has stuck with me.  "Never go into debt for something like a TV."  Not much has changed in the ensuing decades since he told a teenager / young man that except for the price of TVs.  Now, perhaps a TV is passe and we can substitute bigger monitor / additional monitor / new smartphone / tablet / whatever the latest gadget is.  Part of why Gert is happy is her sense of "enough".

As others have noted, it takes time to get things set up to achieve full Gertitude (if you even seek to get there).  That said, when it is set up, you can rely less on external inputs.  If you have an energy efficient home, generate some of the required energy yourself, grow and preserve much of the food you eat, and perhaps grow your own fibre for textiles, or make / repair your own clothes, or perhaps find deals (new or used).  Keep in mind that our basic physical needs are food, clothing (at least here in the great white north), and shelter.  With assessing needs, how much square footage do you "need"?  I'm sure most of us in North America could do with a lot less than we have, especially if we have less "stuff".

The ubiquitous "we" like to complain about things like taxes, inflation, energy costs, and so on.  If we used less stuff and energy, we would require less income, which could allow us to pay less in tax.  If we modified our lifestyle to be more resilient with respect to growing / preserving / preparing more of our own food, we could spend a lot less at grocery stores.  If we worked on energy efficiency in our lives, we'd pay less to the utility companies.  That way, less income could be "enough".  

In Canada, the (largely ignored) legal requirement is that barter is still an exchange to be accounted for on our income taxes.  Since few, if any, actually report it, I'm not sure how much that rule matters.  I don't advocate breaking the law, but if we think from a perspective of abundance, if I have something in excess that you need or want, and vice versa, an exchange can be mutually beneficial.  That doesn't need to be "stuff", although it can be - it could be life energy (labour), or knowledge (master/apprentice), or other areas.  I think how strong communities look - at least in times past, in rural areas, when someone needed help, the community pitched in (think barn raisings or getting the fields seeded or harvested).  I'm sure that still happens, but with the decline of small family farms, there are fewer people in those rural areas to pitch in and pull together for work like that.  Still, I hope to be able to foster at least some of that sense of community, as much as a cantankerous curmudgeon like me can.

Being here at Permies implies we are all seeking something along the scale of Gertitude (unlikely full Ferditude).  In a different (but I think related) scale, I think of the Wheaton Eco Scale - in going through the description, elements of my life are at least at level 5, but other elements of my life are certainly lower.  I'm not sure how far I'll climb the scale, but it's cool to think I may be one in a million (and many people are thankful I am one in a million...at least in some aspects that there aren't more like me).  

One example that I've recently taken is drying some of our laundry on a rack rather than the dryer.  We haven't gone all the way, and She Who Must Be Obeyed's work clothes need to be a bit spiffier (funny how her nicest stuff isn't allowed to go in the dryer...hmmm), but using the sensor on the dryer, thinking that if I remove some of the heavy things like jeans and my pants and some of the towels and flannel, the dryer will run less to do a "load".  Even if we reduce our dryer energy by 10%, considering that is a big energy use in the house, we should see an impact in our overall energy use.

Now that it seems I'm rambling, I'd better stop.

We may not be there yet, but I think we are on our way to becoming permaculture millionaires.

Todd Parr wrote:

There is a standing joke among my family and friends that they look at my land and see chaos.  I see biodiversity

Yep: where are the straight plow lines and bare soil 😂

Here they call "gertitude" "neo peasants"

I’m a Gert.  I don’t know how many of us exist in the permaculture world, but I find many of us at tangentially-related things like weekday daytime antique tool auctions, library meetups, and heritage and native plant swaps so I know we’re around.  

I suspect many of us either don’t want to be bothered poking our heads up to be noticed or we just are too busy getting on with things to waste time explaining ourselves to others.  I’d rather break every jar I’ve ever canned and bulldoze my garden than waste time explaining myself and my lifestyle to strangers.  No thanks, I’ve got seeds to start.

I think Spike Driver Blues could be a Gert anthem.



Judson even sang it!

this is part of what i am advocating for with gertitude

(the image is kinda broken, but you get the idea)

Grocery store delivery adds another step with the food delivery service in that it goes to the store, then someone there packs it and it gets delivered.

Two weeks ago I picked up a 1/4 grass fed Angus beef.  A farmer neighbour of our acreage (about 6 km away) raised the animal, and it was custom cut and wrapped at a country butcher (about 60 km from the farmer).  We also get a pig and several chickens from her, so most of our meat for the year is quite local.  We also get most of our eggs through her, although the farmer with the layers is closer to our property than hers.

Here's a Dane aiming for a Gert-like life - tiny self built house in the woods:

there is a wealth in social relations and in kindness that sometimes outweighs the wealth of money.

paul wheaton wrote:this is part of what i am advocating.... (the image is kinda broken, but you get the idea)

'FIFY'.. (still a tad-bit 'glitchy' - but you get the idea.



Fixed with Pixlr (because Screw 'Adobe', and their greedy 'Subscription Model' (sorry for the rant - but when you spend over $10K on Software - and then, years down the road, that same 'Software Co' decides 'Well, that wasn't "profitable enough" so, therefore, Subscriptions - with No concessions for Past, Multi-Thousand $$-Investments by Existing Customers'. so.. Yah.. Screw you Adobe. 🤬

Anyhoo, I digress..  Fwiw..

The video talks about underconsumptioncore which is something like a stepping stone from consumerism to gerthood.  It's as simple as giving up fast fashion, not buying that cappuccino on the way to work, or posting "i used up my..." reviews (instead of unboxing or "i just bougt this..." reviews.

Under consumption core is gaining too much popularity, so there is now a backlash.  And the main criticism made me laugh.

"Not buying stuff makes you poor"  
"Not buying stuff shows off your poverty "

Over the years, I've known many a person with fast cars, all the clothes and toys, looking very rich indeed.   Buy one of them a dink, and they admit to crippling debt.  They feel rich for the toys, but live in poverty.

Over the years, I've known about 12 people with over 2 million dollars in their bank account, debt free.  I consider these people millionaires.   All self made.  Several escaped bad things from WWII and the aftermath, with literally the shirt on their back.  One didn't even have that as he swam the north see to escape bad things.  

The one path they all share to becoming millionaires is to Not Spend Money.  Earn more than they spend.  Live a simple,frugal life with a few luxuries and toys within their budget.  And the one quality they all share is generosity to their friends.

It makes absolute sense that you can't become wealthy financially by spending more than you bring in.  Arguably the overconsumption of recent decades may be part of the driver behind the gig economy (spend too much so need to find additional sources of income) and the seeming increase in "get more money now" ideas / schemes.

I have to admit I'd never heard of the "underconsumption core" trend.  

I think it is absolutely true that Gertitude involves frugality.  Frugal doesn't necessarily imply "cheap", but a level of value - if I'm exchanging money for a thing, I definitely want something of value that will last.  The funny thing is that if you looked in our closets and day to day life, aside from having nice (but not ostentatious) vehicles, people would generally have difficulty guessing our net worth or amount of savings.

r ransom wrote: ... Under consumption core is gaining too much popularity, so there is now a backlash.  And the main criticism made me laugh.

"Not buying stuff makes you poor"  
"Not buying stuff shows off your poverty "

There have been books/articles written in the past about, "the millionaire next door," which more or less suggests that the people busy "not looking poor", are regularly poorer than the people who live within their means, take joy in what they have, and don't participate in what I call, conspicuous consumption.

Advertising plays on peoples' insecurities. If you can manage to be "boldly different" - wear what you like, not what's "in fashion", eat healthy food, not expensive latte's (I swear the fact that I don't like coffee has saved me a few thousand at least?) and by a "big enough house", rather than what gets shown in fancy magazines, - you have a chance to get ahead.

The only people I see who are really benefitting from the over consumption in North America, are the very rich. Of course they're going to discretely get their patsies to push back - we're their cash cows!

It is all true, but I  would ask one question though - if someone's dream is to live a life of Gert, are millions in the bank of any importance?

To save those millions, one must make money, and of course spend less than making, and avoid debt at all cost :)
However, in so-called Gertiness, making money is low in hierarchy of priorities, I think.

Richard Gorny wrote:It is all true, but I  would ask one question though - if someone's dream is to live a life of Gert, are millions in the bank of any importance?

Paul said, "If Gert had a million dollars, what would she do with it? How would her life change? Since Gert is a fictitious person in my head, I hereby declare that her life would not change. If your life does not change if you have a million dollars, then is it fair to say that you are living the life of a millionaire? Maybe we could call this being a "permaculture millionaire"?

If Gert had a million dollars maybe she would devote that monies to help others learn about permaculture.

Anne Miller wrote:

If Gert had a million dollars maybe she would devote that monies to help others learn about permaculture.

These days you can learn about permaculture for free like it has never been before.

In the same time, even small marketing campaigns for the FMCG have multimillion dollar budgets...

I meant like spreading the word about permacuclture ...

Maybe Gert could offer tours of her farm, by hiring folks to give demonstration, talks, etc.

How is the best way to spread the word permaculture?

Richard Gorny wrote:It is all true, but I  would ask one question though - if someone's dream is to live a life of Gert, are millions in the bank of any importance?

There are some things that only money can buy. Land taxes, new bicycle or vehicle, health care in some countries, house insurance etc.

A large enough nest egg invested wisely will at least keep its value, so that 20 years or longer, you will still have money you can take out of the bank to pay Municipal taxes.

Chooses a location wisely will also help - some locations are much more expensive than others. However, sometimes a more expensive location up front, ends up having lower carrying costs, and better access to emergency care if needed.

All that said, I think Paul may have used the term "permaculture millionaires" because through permaculture, your system is worth a million - not that you had your perma-paradise *and* a million dollars. We would have to ask Paul which interpretation is accurate.

I think my wife and I are "hybrid" Gerts because we were employed full time while developing and running our farm.

Our family struggled and scrimped and worked on the farm for years before the farm turned a profit. Once the farm business started making money we invested in infrastructure and improvements even though we did not own the land. Plowing that money back into the farm paid off with a drastic increase in production and profitability. We then used those profits to pay off our debts, and then to max out our 401Ks, IRAs every year, and to purchase rentals as well as a new home on a half acre with irrigation water.

The farm also paid for college for two of our kids (oldest son is an ER physician, youngest daughter graduated from an Ivy League school with a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Environmental Engineering and now designs solar farm sites). Our other daughter went to college for one year and got married and put her husband through school, they have a successful I.T. security company. Youngest son joined the Marines in 2004 at age 19 and came back much matured and with a love for operating big trucks, he and his family live locally.

I retired from my job with a maximum pension at age 64 when I reached the Rule of 90 (age and years of service equals 90). I was fortunate in that I loved my job.  
All the while we paid self employment tax in my name on the farm income so I qualified for the maximum when we sold the farm business and I took Social Security at age 70. My wife retired from her job early at age 60.

I'm occupied in my retirement with managing rentals, Wed and Sat morning coffee at the diner with friends, exploring the desert and mountains on the side by side, gardening, fishing, hunting, traveling to visit friends and family, and restoring antique vehicles and other projects in a recently purchased shop in town.

My wife is busy with irrigating, yard work, reading, relaxing on the deck in the mornings with coffee and me, riding her bike, daily exercise classes with friends, traveling, and playing the violin with the local symphony orchestra.

Winter cold, snow, and ice on crutches is taking a toll on me and we're seriously considering getting a little winter place with palm trees in the yard and a local orchestra in a town a days drive south of here.

Being Gerts, to us means healthy eating from our own land, no prescriptions (so far), no debts, no payments, no competing, no set daily schedule, no alarm clock, and no boss.

Bill Mollison did not say: Gimme a million dollars and I will make it a paradise, he asked for a rock in the middle of the ocean :)

Anyway, I was referring to the described situation where frugal people amass millions in the bank. I am not sure if Gert cares at all about having those millions. Just that.

Respectfully, I am a little frustrated with this post. I've been a homesteader and single parent struggling (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) to implement permaculture in the BC Interior (Canada) for 22 years. I gave up a six-figure salary to do it.

Am I happy with my decision? Yes. Did I do it for the money? No.

For most people-- including me-- the acquisition of skills is a HUGE time commitment that goes on for years. It is extremely rewarding in a personal sense, but for most of those people it is not particularly rewarding in a financial sense. To imply that it is seems to me to not only be misleading, but to completely miss the point of why we're doing it in the first place.

I think I need to post a quick reminder of what this thread is all about. Gert is a 'permaculture millionaire' - her life wouldn't change if she was given a million dollars because she is already living her permaculture dream. So she's already living the life of a millionaire.

Scenario Gert: Gert has realized the permaculture dream. Gert lives on a few acres and eats the food that grows there. Dme harvesting and preserving food. During a week or two in the fall, Gert is working a good 50 hours a week. But for most of the year, Gert is working less than ten hours a week.

If Gert had a million dollars, what would she do with it? How would her life change? Since Gert is a fictitious person in my head, I hereby declare that her life would not change. If your life does not change if you have a million dollars, then is it fair to say that you are living the life of a millionaire? Maybe we could call this being a "permaculture millionaire"?

I don't think this thread is trying to say that you are likely to become a 'real' millionaire by adopting permacultue, just that you can live in such a way that money becomes relatively meaningless.

Burra Maluca wrote:I think I need to post a quick reminder of what this thread is all about. Gert is a 'permaculture millionaire' - her life wouldn't change if she was given a million dollars because she is already living her permaculture dream. So she's already living the life of a millionaire.

I understand your point but I'm in no way, shape, or form living the life of a millionaire nor do I think most permaculturists are, unless they started at 20 with a robust set of skills already in hand. It's hard physical work, every day.

That said, I'm also completely off-grid (and reliant on rainwater) and continually attempting to complete a straw bale house I started 7 years ago, so perhaps people who do permaculture on grid & on property with rich soil & regular rain have it easier.

I totally love most aspects of the way I live, but if I had a million dollars I would live very differently, and the change would have to do with hiring labour to plant more trees, put in more fences, and build more outbuildings. It would hugely change the daily stress.

Ahh to be a Gert... 🤤😍
For  me the hurdles to Gert-dom feel a bit higher. I was never gifted any land from my parents, not even a car or college. I had to get those myself. I have a family, and kids are incredibly expensive, in time and money, especially if you don't want to send them to brainwashing central (aka public school). I could have achieved Gert-dom by now in my life if I had focused my efforts on that, but instead I wanted a family. So now I have 5 kids and a Fred like income and no land. Unlike Fred though, I dont spend the disposable income on frivolities, but working towards that Gert dream. I dont poison myself and my mind with restaurants and TV. I grow and plant and build and improve. I have been working towards the permaculture dream with kids for the last 10 years.. and I only learned what the word and movement were last year.

     I have never gotten permaculture hate. I have gotten hate for believing in no pesticides. For practicing herbalism instead of modern medicine. For wanting a natural garden and believing in soil health being dependent on the biological interactions. For not believing in "the normal way" to do things. Even for structuring my life around keeping my kids and I healthy and fit. I have even recieved hate for being a mom who wasn't overweight. I think permaculture hate comes alot from the same place that anti-vaccination hate comes from. If you stop believing in the publicly scientifically recommend way to do things, where does it end? I think people don't WANT to believe. Firstly because it would mean they have been wrong. Secondly it would mean alot more work and dedication they can currently muster. Third, and most importantly, because it turns their world view upside down and leaves them wondering what to believe in any more.
   
   Any time you challenge someone's world view the natural reaction is anger. It takes a mature person to put the anger aside and think rationally. Today's culture is entirely built around "don't challenge what "science" says is the right way" even when real science proves it wrong. Schools and media are all set to mock and dismiss anyone who goes against the norm. That makes it very hard to mature as a person and be able to face attacks to your worldview with calm logic  This means that even those people who would be brave enough to turn their worldview upside down are afraid to from the societal backlash. So instead they react with anger, and use the anger to build a mental wall, to deny the bit of truth they just peeked at, because that truth is dangerous. In the end, all the hate and anger are just the same as just about any other time someone gets angry, a self-protective fear response. I try to rember that when im faced with comments. Their anger and verbal abuse can only hurt me if I let it, or if I give them some excuse to call authorities, like getting mad back. 🙃