• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • r ranson
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Leigh Tate
  • jordan barton
  • Greg Martin
master gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • John F Dean
  • Jay Angler
  • Nancy Reading
gardeners:
  • Beau Davidson
  • thomas rubino
  • L. Johnson

growing apples from seeds vs. cloning

 
gardener
Posts: 3687
457
6
forest garden fungi trees food preservation bike medical herbs
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The real tap root is based on the genetics of the tree. Most trees don't have a central root that goes straight down. Those kinds of trees are very hard to transplant.  Pawpaw, madrone, and walnut are examples.  If you successfully transplant them, and I have, they still have a central tap root that goes straight down.  An apple tree will never have a central tap root that goes straight down.  It will have many roots. Some will go deeper than others.  It doesn't depend on whether it is grown from seed.  I have dug up many apple trees, both from seed and that had been transplanted.  They are just different species of trees that will do that.

John S
PDX OR
 
Posts: 54
12
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
While it is true that the potential for the development of a central, deep growing tap root is genetically influenced, several environmental factors also influence the development. Not all tap roots are created equal, and, it is safe to say that not all species that are generically predisposed to develop a tap root will actually develop a deep tap root. For example, a well-developed hardpan below the surface can stop the downward growth of a tap root. In this case, lateral branches off the tap root will form the bulk of the root system. Other factors may similarly affect the development of a tap root. Or you can sever the tap root. Once the tap root is severed, it is, in fact, lateral root branches that "replace" it. These roots of lateral origin may grow downward and function in lieu of the tap root, but they are not the original tap root. Roots are, after all, typically negatively geotropic and are generically programmed to grow downward. So, in this case, components of the lateral secondary root system take over some of the function of the original tap root.
Similarly, roots from cuttings will NEVER form a true tap root. Instead, these adventitious roots form an extensive adventitious root system that grows both outward AND downward, but you cannot really call these downward growing adventitious roots tap roots. A true tap root comes only from the embryonic root.
Personally, I've had no trouble transplanting plants with or without a tap root, with a severed tap root, or cuttings with no tap root. The sensitivity to disturbance of the root system is also genetically determined, but it does not really seem to be linked to whether or not the plant has a well-developed tap root. Starting onions from dug up, disturbed small plants that have no tap root is common. Whereas other plants such as poppies and paw paws are known to be sensitive to root disturbance. Apples are known to be easy. Just as the genetics of a plant determine what method of vegetative propagation you use.
 
Paul Young
Posts: 54
12
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Correction from my previous post: "negative geotropism" should read "positive gravitropism" since roots generally, not always, respond with growth in the direction of gravitational pull. "Geotropism" implies a response to a geological factor.
 
master gardener
Posts: 2984
Location: Isle of Skye, Scotland
1167
transportation dog forest garden foraging trees books food preservation woodworking wood heat rocket stoves ungarbage
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm having a go at some direct apple seed planting this year using seed from local varieties (in my borrowed garden). I'm pretty sure that if I planted them unprotected they'd get eaten by mices straight away, so I've given them half a chance by planting  them inside a 'bottle cloche' - a cut off pop bottle that has already served as vole guard for some of my trees that have now outgrown them. With top and bottom removed I get a wide tube that when Just pushed into the ground makes a safe area for seedlings.
Assuming I get some to germinate and grow, I expect it will be ten years here before I actually get to try the fruit, but coming off local stock the new trees are a little more likely to be tolerant of local conditions....any trees at worst will be rootstock for grafting better fruit onto.
 
gardener
Posts: 1605
Location: Longbranch, WA Mild wet winter dry climate change now hot summer
345
2
goat tiny house rabbit wofati chicken solar
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Bringing up another factor epigenetics. epigenetics is what the genetics do under the influence of the environment.   For example I had an apple tree growing beside the driveway evidently from a discarded apple core.   While widening the driveway to bring in the manufactured house I asked the backhoe operator if he could scoop this 6 foot high tree growing in forest litter on clay so very shallow root ball.  He then brought it up the hill to an empty perk test hole and dropped it in.  It adapted to its new location and now blooms later and produces more of a winter apple than it did down in the flood plain.
 
Where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking and all the tiny ads are above average:
List of Rocket Mass Heater Builders
https://permies.com/wiki/122347/List-Rocket-Mass-Heater-Builders
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic