growing apples from seeds vs. cloning

The real tap root is based on the genetics of the tree. Most trees don't have a central root that goes straight down. Those kinds of trees are very hard to transplant.  Pawpaw, madrone, and walnut are examples.  If you successfully transplant them, and I have, they still have a central tap root that goes straight down.  An apple tree will never have a central tap root that goes straight down.  It will have many roots. Some will go deeper than others.  It doesn't depend on whether it is grown from seed.  I have dug up many apple trees, both from seed and that had been transplanted.  They are just different species of trees that will do that.

John S
PDX OR

While it is true that the potential for the development of a central, deep growing tap root is genetically influenced, several environmental factors also influence the development. Not all tap roots are created equal, and, it is safe to say that not all species that are generically predisposed to develop a tap root will actually develop a deep tap root. For example, a well-developed hardpan below the surface can stop the downward growth of a tap root. In this case, lateral branches off the tap root will form the bulk of the root system. Other factors may similarly affect the development of a tap root. Or you can sever the tap root. Once the tap root is severed, it is, in fact, lateral root branches that "replace" it. These roots of lateral origin may grow downward and function in lieu of the tap root, but they are not the original tap root. Roots are, after all, typically negatively geotropic and are generically programmed to grow downward. So, in this case, components of the lateral secondary root system take over some of the function of the original tap root.
Similarly, roots from cuttings will NEVER form a true tap root. Instead, these adventitious roots form an extensive adventitious root system that grows both outward AND downward, but you cannot really call these downward growing adventitious roots tap roots. A true tap root comes only from the embryonic root.
Personally, I've had no trouble transplanting plants with or without a tap root, with a severed tap root, or cuttings with no tap root. The sensitivity to disturbance of the root system is also genetically determined, but it does not really seem to be linked to whether or not the plant has a well-developed tap root. Starting onions from dug up, disturbed small plants that have no tap root is common. Whereas other plants such as poppies and paw paws are known to be sensitive to root disturbance. Apples are known to be easy. Just as the genetics of a plant determine what method of vegetative propagation you use.

Correction from my previous post: "negative geotropism" should read "positive gravitropism" since roots generally, not always, respond with growth in the direction of gravitational pull. "Geotropism" implies a response to a geological factor.

I'm having a go at some direct apple seed planting this year using seed from local varieties (in my borrowed garden). I'm pretty sure that if I planted them unprotected they'd get eaten by mices straight away, so I've given them half a chance by planting  them inside a 'bottle cloche' - a cut off pop bottle that has already served as vole guard for some of my trees that have now outgrown them. With top and bottom removed I get a wide tube that when Just pushed into the ground makes a safe area for seedlings.
Assuming I get some to germinate and grow, I expect it will be ten years here before I actually get to try the fruit, but coming off local stock the new trees are a little more likely to be tolerant of local conditions....any trees at worst will be rootstock for grafting better fruit onto.

Bringing up another factor epigenetics. epigenetics is what the genetics do under the influence of the environment.   For example I had an apple tree growing beside the driveway evidently from a discarded apple core.   While widening the driveway to bring in the manufactured house I asked the backhoe operator if he could scoop this 6 foot high tree growing in forest litter on clay so very shallow root ball.  He then brought it up the hill to an empty perk test hole and dropped it in.  It adapted to its new location and now blooms later and produces more of a winter apple than it did down in the flood plain.

'Wheaton Apple' is possible, ask Alan Chadwick how to do it.
crafting, taproot, rootstock, …. just words.
To make things simple:
The seed is the origin and will never make the parent. (but with the influence of a great gardener can make fruits more desirable than the parent).
Crafting, taproot, rootstock, makes the parent.
Disease come from our ignorance of the interplay of the four elements in Nature and the cycling of the seasons and the seven planets that influence (control) every plant on Earth.
And just to top it off: Our Sun is a cold planet and not what some scientists say. (Think about it if you dare).

Johnny Appleseed, AKA John Chapman. The man is actually much more interesting than his legend and died a land baron:
Thanks to the 1801 Act, someone could claim a piece of land by homesteading that land. He planted many orchards that way and could then resell them to folks who wanted some land.
[There was no provision in the law that the apples should be marketable quality! thank goodness] and most might at most make a passable cider.
By planting so many apples from apples that he found just about anywhere, but mostly from cideries out East, he can be credited with keeping a vast DNA collection of apples that we can use today and cross and graft.
https://www.morningagclips.com/johnny-appleseed-the-fact-and-fiction-on-the-folk-legend/.
In the North of Wisconsin and the Upper peninsula of Michigan you can drive by in the fall and still find all sorts of 'wild' apples. The people there will tell you that these are the descendant of Johnny's apples that he planted from pips.
I do not know if that is true or if tourists keep throwing their apple cores out of the window when they drive by, but there sure are quite a few tart apple trees growing wild there, so I choose to believe it.
From his religion, he was kind to people and animals and did not want to graft trees as this might 'hurt them'. Yet he died as a renowned orchardist. I like to think of him as a permie before the word was invented.

r ranson wrote:

Doing the Johnny Appleseed thing is so easy... But why stop at apples? Wild cherries grow well here, even though they are more than tart. Most are quite inedible, truth be told. However, what a great idea for a food forest. Plant every pip [apples, pears], every stone [cherry, plum, peach, nectarine] that passes your lips. There is little more to do than tossing them all in a place that looks promising, at the right time and wait.
OK. For nuts, you deprive yourself of the best part of the fruit by planting it. But the rewards will be immense!
Best time to plant?
Imitate Mother Nature. In Wisconsin, where winters can be harsh,  we will benefit from natural stratification without doing anything special, so I like to plant just before the ground freezes or just before a big snowfall. [Waiting just before the snow falls insures that the seeds will be out of sight quickly and critters won't find them, the exception being nut trees, because they will dig to China to get them! so it is better to germinate those in damp peat moss, in the fridge. Critters seem to lose interest once you get a few leaves.
For all other seeds, when I'm ready, I walk in our little forest with a little hand hoe, like this Zog and my seeds:
https://www.amazon.com/ZOG-Handle-Garden-Shaped-Weeding/dp/B09WR8XLF6/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=Hand%2BHoe&qid=1693077192&sr=8-5&th=1
I'm also lucky that our soil is pretty sandy, so it does not take much of a blow to make a suitable hole, or shove them under some leaves if the ground is already frozen.. Again, look at Mother Nature. Most seeds fall directly on the ground; some get eaten, some get covered with enough leaves that they will sink in and germinate. So using the Zog just gives them a leg up, so to speak.
I bought some Rainier cherries when they were in season and I looked them up:  they are GMO free and the result of crossing a Van and a Bing and grow in zone 5-9. Well, I'm in a warming zone 4b, so if they are protected a bit, well, maybe? Since our area is a couple hundred miles from Door county, where they grow cherries commercially, if I get something that is not a Rainier but is close to a Van or a Bing, I'd still be happy. The reason we don't have them here is that they do not travel well. Indeed, if you buy some, eat them within a day or two!
I'm also tasting plums and looking for a variety that is truly free-stone. I would love to buy mirabelles or green gage but they are not even on the market here. I've had trouble with The Mount Royal but I will keep trying. I do have one that just gave me 5 plums this year, so it is working! I will plant those stones.
Also, when we plant an orchard, we have to respect a certain spacing. However, if you plant in a forest, you will notice that trees are a whole lot closer and they produce anyway. I think the spacing distance is only to make mechanical harvesting, fertilizing, spraying etc. easier.
Plus you cannot expect that 100% will germinate and survive their first winter. There will be losses, but for the work involved, you will still get quite a bounty!

My understanding about pips is that indeed, they will not grow true to seed and may not be worth the effort. However, Hybrids that have been around for a long time can become like a heritage apple and their pips would be closer to the parent tree.
A good heritage apple that pollinates freely would be a better candidate, IMHO. In Northern Wisconsin, many apple pips were planted by "Johnny Appleseed". Most can be added to make cider, hard or not. Some are even OK to eat out of hand.
I have 2 raised beds of apple seedlings that I plan to transplant next spring in the little forest we have. I don't expect them to do much but when they flower, they will provide pollen. If one of them is any good, I didn't invest much, and since they will have survived at least one Wisconsin winter by transplant time, they might be good candidates from grafting?
Does any permie have experience with them and could shed some light on this? Thanks.

Leah Sattler wrote:hmm. I don't understand how the taproot thing could be true?? wouldn't you graft a desirable apple onto another apple tree? wouldn't all apple trees have or not have a tap root? just curious.

Apple varieties, (the trees are what I'm referring to here) are propagated from bud and stem (scion) grafts onto 'rootstock'. The rootstock comes from an apple tree that has good root structure, (a root cutting), although not necessarily great fruit. In other words, the commercial apple tees you see do not originate from seed. They are literally a "Frankenstein" (I don't mean that in a bad way) of a tree. They are composed of parts from other trees to create a new tree, that was not propagated from a seed. As such, this new tree will not/does not have a taproot that originates from a seed. However, because it is created from 'superior' root cuttings, I would suspect that a tree grown in this manner would likely be superior to a tree propagated from seed in terms of the root structure. Taproot notwithstanding.

Mark Reynolds wrote:

Leah Sattler wrote:hmm. I don't understand how the taproot thing could be true?? wouldn't you graft a desirable apple onto another apple tree? wouldn't all apple trees have or not have a tap root? just curious.

Apple varieties, (the trees are what I'm referring to here) are propagated from bud and stem (scion) grafts onto 'rootstock'. The rootstock comes from an apple tree that has good root structure, (a root cutting), although not necessarily great fruit. In other words, the commercial apple tees you see do not originate from seed. They are literally a "Frankenstein" (I don't mean that in a bad way) of a tree. They are composed of parts from other trees to create a new tree, that was not propagated from a seed. As such, this new tree will not/does not have a taproot that originates from a seed. However, because it is created from 'superior' root cuttings, I would suspect that a tree grown in this manner would likely be superior to a tree propagated from seed in terms of the root structure. Taproot notwithstanding.

Leah, Mark is correct, plus the trees you find in nurseries have to be held in a pot, and, according to the size of the tree you want to have in the end, You might want to have an M.27 an M.9 , a G, and M111 etc. The rootstock [u]you choose determines the eventual height of the tree.[/u]
The rootstock will determine if the tree  will reach a height of 20%, 40% 60% 80% of the final height of a seedling tree, with the seedling tree reaching the full expectation of 100% of its height.
https://maplevalleyorchards.com/rootstock/apple-rootstock/
To support all the branches and the weight and the height of a full size tree, the seedling puts out a taproot which is in proportion. To withstand winds, it has to have a long anchor root, with other roots growing laterally.
But  to harvest those apples you will need a tall ladder. If you plant several, they will need to be spaced farther apart.
A number of rootstocks are the result of genetic mutations or serious selection that makes them dwarf, or at least a lot smaller, and there are advantages and disadvantages to each and every one. The scion, which is later grafted to the rootstock determines the cultivar, meaning the type of apple you get: Cortland, Lodi etc...
Once the tree grows in a nursery, it can also be further limited by the size of the pot it's placed in from the start. [We've all heard of the dreaded "pot bound" root ball, when a tree has been in the same pot for too long and the roots grow in a circle]. Avoid those like the pest because they will be stunted and will never achieve their full potential. [Buy them "Bare roots", so you can see if it has lots of roots or not]. This also causes the roots to fork, so you will not have a long "taproot". The seedling, in contrast, grows unimpeded and needs to gain some height and will grow roots that match. They won't always grow a proper "taproot" is you imagine a carrot of a taproot with little filaments as side shoots: They will fork a bit too, but that is because although a seedling can grow roots unimpeded except by rocks or other impediments an apple isn't a nut tree [like a walnut, a chestnut etc.]
Nut trees are harder to transplant because they are known for making a taproot, like a very long carrot, very early in its life.
That's just the way they grow. My chestnuts grew a taproot over one foot long it their first month of growth before I planted them. Maybe because they are still young but the taproot is extremely fragile, and if you break it, your tree will not really ever be a good specimen if it survives. I broke the root of 2 of my chestnuts upon transplanting but I thought: "Well, I've got the room, so why not?". I planted them in May. In mid August, they looked awful and in September, they had lost their leaves and died. In contrast, the other trees made great progress, some reaching 4 ft, in a particularly dry year. So I have about 28 chestnuts, [out of 30 nuts. Still small, but healthy.
So this question of taproot or no taproot depends on the type of tree it it, on the desire for a large of small tree, and on whether it's been held too long in a small pot. Beyond that, they need proper soil, exposure, fertilizing and watering, just like any other plant.