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growing apples from seeds vs. cloning

 
pollinator
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i do like the fact that we have very early and very late trees for both blooms and for the harvest..we have some very very early apples..transparent and then those other sweet early ones..might be relatives to russets??? not sure, they are seed grown...that we got our first apples off of (they are mostly all still in our freezer)..and then the late ones which we just finished up using...we have a lot of inbetweeners too..good thing we love apples..probably our favorite fruit here..esp for cooking.
 
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    It is hard to believe that trees don't have tap roots, people are always talking of them. Roland Ennos, a scientist who works at Manchester university has a book on trees called trees and his special interest is the mechanics of their growth and he does not mention them losing tap roots, he talks of them in time putting down more than one.
      Jesus Charco talks somewhere i can no longer find of how very long the roots of tarays are, which fact makes them makes good desert trees. i have my photo on one forum here of the excellent tap roots at the edge of a quarry it is the easiest way to photograph roots is looking for roots in cuttings in th road or for a quarry in a wood.
      The long article on hydraulic redistribution that i have mentioned in another place in these forums,  that talks of experiments measuring sap flow and establishes that superficial roots lose water, sweat, in hot dry weather and the tap roots provide them with water to make up for what they are losing and also that in a storm the instruments they use heat pulse method of measuring sap flow show that  the more superficial roots start to take up water and the flow is reversed not only does it take the water to the tap root but it also flows down the tap root and gets stored in the ground,
      Also tap roots take up nutrients that can have leached down into the ground.  This reversible flow is called  hydraulic redistribution, at first they thought it was just hydraulic lift, that water from tap roots flowed not just to leaves in dry weather but also to superficial roots.  This very scientific article about the experiments of a group of scientists does not talk about the scientists being in a dither because they are afraid of not finding tap roots. I think someone is hoaxing Paul Wheaton.
 
   I like the video Paul Wheaton has posted about own root fruit trees and coppiced orchards a lot, it was really interesting. agri rose macaskie.
 
rose macaskie
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If you hand pollinate your apples with a bunnies tail or something more vegetarian, as they did in the  old days, could you get true to type apples? If so, do you need permaculturists who are good at this who can sell true to type seed or seedlings to other people? agri rose macaskie.
 
steward
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rose macaskie wrote:
    It is hard to believe that trees don't have tap roots, people are always talking of them. Roland Ennos, a scientist who works at Manchester university has a book on trees called trees and his special interest is the mechanics of their growth and he does not mention them losing tap roots, he talks of them in time putting down more than one.
      Jesus Charco talks somewhere i can no longer find of how very long the roots of tarays are, which fact makes them makes good desert trees. i have my photo on one forum here of the excellent tap roots at the edge of a quarry it is the easiest way to photograph roots is looking for roots in cuttings in th road or for a quarry in a wood.
      The long article on hydraulic redistribution that i have mentioned in another place in these forums,  that talks of experiments measuring sap flow and establishes that superficial roots lose water, sweat, in hot dry weather and the tap roots provide them with water to make up for what they are losing and also that in a storm the instruments they use heat pulse method of measuring sap flow show that  the more superficial roots start to take up water and the flow is reversed not only does it take the water to the tap root but it also flows down the tap root and gets stored in the ground,
      Also tap roots take up nutrients that can have leached down into the ground.  This reversible flow is called  hydraulic redistribution, at first they thought it was just hydraulic lift, that water from tap roots flowed not just to leaves in dry weather but also to superficial roots.  This very scientific article about the experiments of a group of scientists does not talk about the scientists being in a dither because they are afraid of not finding tap roots. I think someone is hoaxing Paul Wheaton.
 
   I like the video Paul Wheaton has posted about own root fruit trees and coppiced orchards a lot, it was really interesting. agri rose macaskie.



Lots of trees don't have tap roots. We yank out enough stumps to know this for sure! In fact, we have trees here that only the roots touch the soil, in fact, there is a palm here that is a walking palm, it will literally "walk" in search of a better site! 

But REALLY slowly. 
 
rose macaskie
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      Fred Morgan, Why do the scientists talk of going to to look at hydraulic redistribution in Savannah trees and not mention their fear of not finding trees with tap roots? I have some photos of deep roots. Do you just pull up trees in really well watered lawns? Why does Roland Ennos who talks of tree mechanics such as how swamp trees have elbows sticking out of the water to get air for their roots as swamps are a bit airless, and of how trees put on special types of wood round the parts where branches leaves of trees to strengthen the joint, who seems to have studied tree mechanics, talk of trees eventually putting down more than one tap root?
      There must be a why and when trees have or don't have tap roots, there can't be so much talk of tap roots if they aren't very normal, if Roland Ennos talks of them eventually putting down more than one tap root this must often be the case. What are all the ins and outs of this?
     Nice about the palm that walks in search of a better site. agri rose macaskie.
 
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I have to say I agree with Paul on the whole tap root thing. I do not have any scientific proof, it is just more of a gut thing. It just seems to me the natural, right way to grow trees, it makes sense.

With that said on a small urban lot like I have I agree with Permaculture.dave about plating grafted stock for better maintenance and harvest regimes.

Here in Castlegar BC we have hundreds upon hundreds of apple trees thriving well on abandoned Dukabour orchards. These trees only get rain water and are fully loaded from top to bottom. I have no idea yet what varieties they are or how they were planted but my wife and I have eaten lots of these apples, and they tasted good. If the taste is off we just turn them into apple sauce or dehydrate them.

Colin
 
                                      
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Hi all

Just joined this to follow up on another site's postings about non-toxic wood specie for food utensil uses, and got side-tracked with this Apple tree thread!

My! What people won't say who've no ambition to do a bit of confirmed-fact research on!

Tap roots on Apple Trees? Please!

On Oaks and Locust, and some nut-seed varieties, but no, not the noble Apple!

However, one thing apple trees have in common with locust and oak trees is that their seed produce -Drummmmmmiiinnngg please . . . Apple trees! Just like their cousins, the locust and oak's seed produce  . . . oh OK, no drums . . . oaks and locust!

Fruit? Oh, "Fruit"! Yep, apple trees from seed produce haha -drummmmsss please . . .! Apple-bearing apple trees! Amazing!

Oh, one small thing. Nurseries like to take all the hard-earned cash off your hands that they can by almost-truthful marketing hyperbole. Well, guess what? They just do not tell you the whole story about apples, and other bare root stock, and even root-balled tree stock, making it sound like there is no way YOU can have the same quality APPLE FRUIT from ANY other source!

That's simply NOT True! No! I'm really not SHOUTING! Am I? Just the Noise In Here is LOUD!

"Johnny Apples Seed" made certain that new frontier settlers had lots, and lots, and lots of apples. He id NOT frustrate himself over the particular fruit of his wandering seed planting, for a long-ago, no apparently LOST knowledge that apple seed produces more  . . . APPLE SEED!!


In fact, if you take a peach pit, an apricot pit, and olive pit, or a nectarine pit, or even an almond pit - yes! Almond PIT! - and sprout each one, the only one that does not come up true to its fruit type . . . is. . .  the nectarine! Why?


Peaches from seed make . . . more peaches! We're onto something here! Nectarines cannot make more nectarines, because there is NO natural-occuring nectarine tree!

Pollinate an apricot tree's blossom with peach flower boy stuff, and you get a weird tree that MAY have fruit with characteristics of both parents! Plant the seed from this bastard tree though, and you get a tree, but not necessarily a peach, or an apricot, or even a fruit-bearing tree!

Apples and the roses, and the pears, and the plums, and some other rose family fruit tree species make very consistent children characteristics. But, only if their fruit blossoms are pollinated with other true open pollinators.

In fact, for heirloom food-specie plants, enter this search string; -open pollinator food plants- and carefully study the returned info links for such terms as . . . "Pollination  - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
," "Celebrating Wildflowers - Plant Pollination Strategies - Food
," "Hybrids Compared to Open-Pollinated Plants | eHow.com
," "Diverse Pollination Networks Key to Ecosystem Sustainability," and "Green Haven Open Pollinated Seed Group Benefits," to get a start with understanding quality, sustainable tree culture -silviculture.

Now, the best part of ALL! Tree health!

I once had the privilege of creating new growing beds around a sea-side property. In their Summer fun wildly running sport boats around a small cove where seaweed was plentiful, the kids tore up much of this highly-prized fertilizer, and I, seeing opportunity, 'harvested' tons of it, making a large pile near the customer's property, on the beach. In about 10 weeks, lambs quarter seed sprouted, by the thousands, and this pile soon had giant lamb's quarter plants growing thick as a fertile lawn!

If anyone here knows lamb's quarters as a fantastic source of loads of minerals and vitamins, and, it also loves to grow in heavy saline -salt- soil! Yes, it's a halophyte! In fact, I discovered that the lambs quarters growing along this beach had had so much salt in their roots that the leaves were crusted with dried salt from the transpiration! In fact, the leaves were too salty to taste good, but they were some of the healthiest lamb's quaters plants I've ever seen, and I love growing them in my gardens!

OK, what do seaweed and lamb's quarters have to do with apple trees' health?

TONS, peoples! TONS!

Apple trees die very quickly with almost any salinity in their soils, but with the high density of nutrients contained in seaweed, and even in normal land-derived plant mass used in composts, apple trees' roots need little more for verdant growth, and limb-breaking fruit production!

ALL apple variants are included, yes, even the mutants! Every growing plant loves its roots buried in highly fertile soil! Even cactii!

Apple seed our beloved "Johnny Appleseed" sowed had this same love of fertile soils. But, in his time, the soils his labors of love saw were very, very different from the wastelands of modern life. Manufactured chemicals? His response to that would go something like . . . "Oh yes! We have manufactured chemicals! I have a kindly homesteader wife offer me a hot tub to soak in - well, once in a while - and some even offer me use of their animal fat soaps! Now, that's livin', if I've anything to say! Modern conveniences! I'm all for 'em!"

OK, so "Johnny Appleseed's" concept of "manufactured chemicals" might have been a bit off, in light of our concept of that term. Does it make any difference to the apple trees he would have sown, so far as their health, sustainable livelihood, and fruit production?

Boy! Is that a 'dumb' question!

Let's illustrate. I grew up in a tiny Central Valley town in California, where grapes, oranges, kiwi, almonds, peaches, apricots, nectarines, pistachio, and a zillion more commercial plant crops are grown. The soils have become so sterile from decades of chemical fertilizer use, and herbicidal pest control, and deep-well irrigation, and over-harvesting, and industry chemical soups, and heavy fossil fuel-burning traffic, and polluted rains, and  . . . well, you get the picture, that drastic measures to revive soils' health are now underway.

Apple trees? "Johnny Appleseed" sowed his seed in some of the best VIRGIN sod known anywhere on Planet Earth! Soils that had never known a plow; soils where thousands of years of organic and mineral chelation had works together with verdant grasses, trees, and animal occupants, to form super-fertile, very high nutrient soils, for "Johnny's" seed!

Now, THE question! Can we duplicate the soil fertility of "Johnny's" time, in OUR back yards, OUR farms, and OUR country?

Not easily, but absolutely!


It's a long, long story, but here's the short version; STOP PILLAGING OUR SOILS!

Yeah, I know! Big Bro Agriculture really hears that one!


Now, every one of us reading, and typing this can DO this;

A. Lower harvest levels to take off plant products less than the nutrients taken. That is, for every calorie of plant product harvested, make certain that 2 calories are either left, or added, or some combination of those.

B. Increase soil tilth. Make certain that healthy soil "bugs" are plentiful, lively, and healthy! YES! Healthy soils' "bugs" are a sure sign of high plant nutrient content in ANY soil!

C. Go easy on ALL chemicals, yes, including fertilizers! Did you know earth worms can produce 100% of the nitrogen healthy trees need? Yes, apple trees too!

D. I know some will poo-poo this, but my years' of growing and working with plants have shown that, in nearly every situation, growing plants in 100% compost, compost that is aged to complete lack of nitrogen and oxygen uptake, makes for heavy worm life, and very high plant nutrient levels. Guess what my garden looks like?!!!

E. OK. We're off to a "Johnny Appleseed," tree-a-growin', heavy-harvestin' season! Now, the apple seed!

F. This is very important! In a Washington State island homestead, where wild apples and plums, and salmon berries grow in abundance, the trees produce yummy fruit each year, IF the rains are adequate, and in that rain-shadow island, some years bring precious little precip!

The point is, wild apples love WATER! LOTS of Water! They also love cooler Summer weather, although some sub-100 degree, Fahrenheit Summer weather can be tolerated by a few varieties. In all, Summer weather, WATER, and soil fertility play huge roles in apple crop production.

G. The last, but not final by any measure, point, is tree health. Pests, the fungii, wood borers, leaf-rollers, mites, scabs, harmful bacteria, blights, and a myriad life-forms harmful to apple trees are simply not present to any significant level in trees living in complete nutrient soils, with proper water, weather, and caretaker caring.

Pruning - PROPER Pruning - blossom care, soil husbandry, crop management, pest and predator abatement - yes, fruit bats, macaws, raccoons, squirrels, rodents, grasshoppers, locusts, and, you guessed it, DEER! - love to remove apple tree parts like crazy! These can also do harm to the physical and disease-resistant functions of the trees. Just share your trees in a caring manner with these creatures, and be thankful that your silviculture  of the trees can allow for these fellow residents' healthful diet, even if the death of those unfortunate to meet your husbandry axe eliminated them from the food chain as consumers!

Hope this helps some to slow down in learning, and ass-u-me-ng, how to Properly care for the humble, yet stately Apple!

Claude
 
Brenda Groth
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Hey Paul, did you get your seeds started in pots for sitting out this spring? or are you going to start them out in a nursery bed or in their homes? I'm wanting to hear an update as to how your little seeds are doing.

i sure did appreciate all the apples i put in the freezer from my 3 seedbaby trees this year..esp those really sweet ones.
 
                    
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Susan Monroe wrote:


But the idea does make me wonder how many seeds that John Chapman (Johnny Sppleseed) planted from seeds left over from the cider mills produced decent fruit.  And how much the trees had been crossed, and how different they were.  A time machine could provide some interesting answers.

Sue



Johnny Appleseed got great apples from seed ... for cider.  Inbred. sweet dessert apples are not good for hard cider.
 
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Tap root for tree is like a spine for human. If you want some good apples from seeds without grafting, look for old trees that weren't grafted, they are your best sources. Try also old grafted standard trees. Sown seeds do grows fruit for you, no doubt.
 
rose macaskie
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  I have just bought a book of wild life or wild life in different habitats and it mentions some trees as having tap roots and some as not, oaks have them for instance it did not give a long list of each type.

    I have just bought two mulberries, ten euros each. What would that be in dolars? Fifteen dollars or something of the sort.  Tall ones and the tap root or a big thick root that seemed to be taking a downward direction had been cut through so i thought of Paul Wheaton saying that if you grew apple trees from seed they would have deep roots and felt a bit sorry for my new mulberries.
      I bought them because someone here said they are accumulators and accelerators, i looked it up and as far as i can make out accumulator means they take up a lot of goodies from the soil and so their leaf fall, etc., detritus will be better than that of other trees and accelerator that they produce a hormone that helps healthy root growth still this subject is new to me. So I expect them to be nurse treesb that will help what ever grows under them. i heard that some junipers, juniperus thurifera are good nurse trees to baby juniperus thuriferas, so i am appropiating the term.
  I suppose accumulator could also be negative, it minhgt apply to a plant thaqt collected something poisonouse from the soil.
   
  My observation of apples is that they give fruit no matter what, nearly but then they go and get a whole lot of illnesses canker and such. I think they need to be told to look after themselves first because that will help them to look after others by producing more fruit. and doing so for longer because they don't get carried away by the first passing bug. I have to grow some from seed and see if they are hardier.
      The soil has been fairly horrible till now, maybe with better soil they will be alright. They were planted before i got there.  rose macaskie.
 
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rose macaskie wrote:
    I have just bought two mulberries, ten euros each. What would that be in dolars? Fifteen dollars or something of the sort...  rose macaskie.



Those pesky birds plant mulberry trees all over my place (from seeds)...I weed them out of the garden by the hand full. And i cuda got 15 bucks a piece for them?
 
rose macaskie
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  ronie, yoy say you have been pulling up mulberry seedlings and did not know you coulds get fifteen dollars for them. I have thought that is a good way of earning money. once you have got plants on a bit a lot of them start reproducing like crazy, pot them up and sell them. YOU would have to take walks round your local garden centre to find out how much they cost..
      If they are good the soil as accumulators and accelerators what about mulberry hedges and mulberry bushes where you don't want the shade a big tree would give, keeping trees on your land as bushes here in spain is calle dlow mountain weras woods of trees are called high mountian, monte bajo y alto a chaparo here is a evergreen oak kept as a bush.
  Mulberries are a first grade forage tree, maybe you can sell them to local farmers for their livestock., or sell their leaves as winter feed. here they cut ash and elm, which last of course is scarce nowdays because of elm desease, in September before the leaf turns colour and store it up like hay for winter feed, maybe you can do the same with mulberry.
     Maybe it depends on where you are if the seed takes everywhere or not. There are mulberry trees in the village and the birds have not filled my garden full of seedlings yet. 
      Selling sometimes depends on there being people who don't know how easy it is to have that somthing for nothing.
  They were pretty big, a lot  taller than me, so it is not that easy to sell mulberries i suppose or they would be selling smaller ones for that price, the price of trees in the garden centres depends a lot on the size of the tree. agri rose macaskie.
  .
 
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My! What people won't say who've no ambition to do a bit of confirmed-fact research on!

Tap roots on Apple Trees? Please!

On Oaks and Locust, and some nut-seed varieties, but no, not the noble Apple!



What do you have to prove that there is no tap root on the apple?

I must admit that I was skeptical at first, but that such an advanced permaculturist would suggest it made me think there could be merit to it.  I have since pestered many experts about it and have verified to my comfort level that it is most likely true!  Of course, there are stipulations, which I have already covered here.

So, I wish the record to show, I am not saying it is fact, I am saying that it is my opinion that it is probable.  I do not expect anybody to believe me.  But if you have anything of substance in this space, I would very much like to hear it.





 
paul wheaton
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Brenda Groth wrote:
Hey Paul, did you get your seeds started in pots for sitting out this spring? or are you going to start them out in a nursery bed or in their homes? I'm wanting to hear an update as to how your little seeds are doing.

i sure did appreciate all the apples i put in the freezer from my 3 seedbaby trees this year..esp those really sweet ones.



Nope!  Waiting to get my land situation squared away first!

 
rose macaskie
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My uncle says nope, haven't heard it in a long time have to go and see him sometime. rose.
 
                    
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paul wheaton wrote:
What do you have to prove that there is no tap root on the apple?

I must admit that I was skeptical at first, but that such an advanced permaculturist would suggest it made me think there could be merit to it.  I have since pestered many experts about it and have verified to my comfort level that it is most likely true!  Of course, there are stipulations, which I have already covered here.

So, I wish the record to show, I am not saying it is fact, I am saying that it is my opinion that it is probable.   I do not expect anybody to believe me.  But if you have anything of substance in this space, I would very much like to hear it.



Here is a study that looks at the pests affecting apple tree roots, and it mentions the tap root, lateral roots, fibrous roots, etc .... leading me to believe that apple trees can have tap roots.

http://utahpests.usu.edu/ipm/files/uploads/PDFDocs/res07-waa-roots.pdf

I would not be surprised if some cultivars did not have tap roots, or if the process of raising young apple trees in pots effectively pruned or stunted the tap root, or if grafting one type of apple to another type of root stock produced a tree without a tap root.  But tap roots on apple trees seem quite possible.
 
Aljaz Plankl
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Root stocks from cuttings don't have tap root. Everything else that grows from seeds have a tap root if not removed...
 
                          
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As for apples, they never grow true from seeds.  It's just the way of the plant.  There is only one Golden Delicious apple tree and it's in Missouri.  The rest are all clones.  And it's the same with all the apples you see in stores.  They all come from cloned trees.  I'm not saying you cant get good apples from seeds, just it's a real crap shoot. 

As for tap roots on trees, I just cant think of any reason why having a tap root would make for a better tree?  Grass plants in lawns have been known to have roots going down 40 feet.  So if a grass plant can get down that far without a tap root why would a tree have to use a tap root?

Lots of trees dont have tap roots, out here in the Pacific Northwest we have a tree called the "Doug Fir" maybe you've heard of it, 75 to 150 feet tall and narry a tap root. The roots of Doug Firs go down at best 6 to 8 feet.  And yes, we have lots of rain for 9 months of the year, but then it dries up and doesn't rain for 3 months. 
 
paul wheaton
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It is true that the seed will not grow up to be the same.  Most will be pretty good.  About 20% will be "spitters".

And the value of the taproot is pretty great:  the tree will be able to better handle drought stress and can find more minerals.

 
rose macaskie
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    My book on tree phisiology "Trees" by roland ennos says that a tree wil put down several taproots in time so thethe original taproot should in time be replaced by others.
      I have been told that young oaks don't like losing the tip of their tap root at all so grow them in a half pipe if you have not sown them straight where you mean them to grow so that thier root grows laterally an dis easy to get hold of th ewhole seedling and plant it without damaaging the small tap root.
  it will be hard to keep all the acrons seedlings i have planted free o f grass i don't know if i will be able to find them. it must be important i read in Juan Oría de la Rueda y Salgueros  book  that in medieval times all members of the village were obliged to plant somthing like six trees a year women parish preist everyone to keep oak forest growing for the livestoock and  this included cleaning round the young trees.  agri rose macaskie.
 
rose macaskie
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     A description of what happens in sperm and ovary cells and when they join together to explain why the  plant that comes from an apple seed does not come out like the parent plant. I write this for those for who have not studied biology. Obviously for many it will be old hat.
        I have not studied much biology but this bit is a bit I did study at school. I have found that normal as it seems to me there are many people who did not do biology and don’t know it, like my son, I found it out by asking him, that is I hav ecome to a conclusion about everyone fro asking one person not very likely to give me accurate results.
   
        In a normal cell of our body, skin, hair, whatever, liver, there are two sets of chromosomes, one inherited from the father and one from the mother. Two complete sets of guides for how a tree or person of that type should turn out.
      In a sperm or ovule, unfertilized egg there is only one set of chromosomes because it is waiting to have the other set contributed when it is fertilized by the gamete, sperm or ovule, of the other sex, when the egg and  sperm fertilized each other.
     
       I don’t know how little biology some of the people who will read this will know. Is it necessary for some to aay that though it is incredible that instructions about the whole body of a person should exist in every tiny cell of the body they do cells do contain a set of instructions about every particular of the structure of the body that cell belongs to. About whether person who owns the cells has a big mouth or small, is muscular or weak, tall or strong, but they do, and cells are small, not visible with the naked eye. Scientist have now days such incredible instruments that they can prove things that seem completely crazy.
        For instance there are as many atoms in a grain of sand as grains of sand on a beach. Or, the nucleus in an atom is as small in comparison to the atom as a butterfly is compared to the cathedral it is flying in. Science is full of completely way out information. I only know a few bits of scientific information.
     
     
    When the sperm or egg is fertilized then the sperm or ovule with a single set of chromosomes of each partner will join and make one cell in which there will be two sets of chromosomes, the set that the female brings and the set the male brings. The spermatazoide or the ovule are haploid cells with only one set of chromosones each and they become a diploid cell or a cell with two sets of chromosomes in it when the two join.
      My repetition is not so much necessary to make it easier to understand though people do understand things easier the third time they read them, if I am an example they do, as because it helps the ease with which people learn new words.
   
      in the formation of an ovule or spermatozoid when a cell turns into a gamete ithe two sets of chromosomes in the cell interchange their chromosomes so the two sets are no longer the same as they were though all the chromosomes are still there. The two sets of cromosmes are no longer, on one side the ones inherited from the father and the other the set inherited from the mother but a mix up, so that if you began with your fathers chromosomes saying blue eyes and a muscular body, you could end up with the blue eyes going over to the mothers side that has a weaker muscles but taller body type and the strong body type ending up with the brown eyes.
 The set of chromosomes the child of seedling receives will not be the same as either of the two sets of chromosomes the mother had and the same goes for the set the child or tree receives from its fatherthe seedling can’t come out like it parent tree.
     Then the cell divides into two cells, each with only one set of chromosomes. Now the cell has become two spermatazoides if the owner of the els is male and ovulos if the owner is female, and in each new cell there are half th echromosomes and genes there are in the cells of the parent plant or body.

   

    With all this swapping around of chromosomes the new creature, plant that develops from the fertilized egg of the human say or the fertilized seed won’t have the same map for how it will turn out as the parent plants had.
 
   
     How the child, seedling, comes out depends on which genes are dominant on each set of chromosomes  you inherited from your mother the black eyed chromosome of your grandfather and it is stronger than the blue eyes you inherited from your father you will have brown eyes.
     Brown eyes normally beat blue eyes so if you are to come out with blue eyes you have to inherit blue eyes from your father or his ancestors and from your mother.    
 
 In the case of an apple tree the seed the embryo formed from a fertilized egg and the flesh round the seed, the part of the apple you eat’s taste is determined by the tree, while the seed has a new set of chromosomes inherited from two apple trees maybe a transparent and a crab apple and so you don’t know if it is going to come out more crab or transparent.

      If you want to look this all up for yourself look up “Mendel genetics” or just Mendel. Mendel was a monk whose experiments first started to make all this plain.
 
   The word gamete and haploid and diploid are useful if you want to study other forms of life for instance mosses or ferns whose reproduction takes place in two stages. A haploid one in which a plant grows from a gamete, an unfertilized egg, a haploid cell with only one set of chromosomes in it, this intermediate stage plant produces gametes which will only grow a new plant if two such gametes get together in what we call sexual reproduction they swim through the mud till they find another gamete from the resulting seed a new plant will grow that look like the fern we know.
  I have no idea if this makes any sense and it is time for bed if it doesn’t I will have to correct it tomorrow.  agri rose macaskie.

     
     
    when the sperm or egg is fertilised  then the two will make one cell but there wil be two sets of chromosones in it, it will become diploideor cell with two setas of chromosones in it the repetion i s not so much necesary to make it ieasier to understand but it helps the ease with which we learn new words.
    A  reproductive cell with only one set of chromosones in it is called haploide. once two gamets sperm and ovules have got together and formed a cell with two sets of chromosones in it  the resulting cell is called diploide .
   These words are useful if you want to study othermises or ferns of bacteria and things.

     So the the new creature plant that develops from the fertilised egg of the human say or the fertilised seed in which the pollen has fertilised the ovary of the flower of a oak tree for example wont have the same map for how it wil turn out as the parent plant had and it is t.
 sperms and ovaries the unfertilised eggs or sperm that will together form an fertilised egg it is usefull to know the word gamete if you are reading about the biology of plants you will come up against it for example the reproduction of mosses and ferns is strange and some books will talk of gametes when talking of it.
Another word that ends up being usefull is haploid and diploid . cells like ovules the female egg and sperm that have only one set of chromosomes are called haploids and normals cells that have two sets of chromosomes are called diploid . i have had difficulty understanding things because i didnot know these two words and the word gamete so i know they it is usefull to know them.
     
     The set of chromosomes that is to be found in a gamete, which is to say sperm or ovary cell  is not a copy of either of the sets of chromosomes of the person the ovary or sperm belongs to t is not a copy of the  set of chromosomes they receive from their mother of of the set they have received from their father because in the formation of a sperm or ovary cell the two sets of chromosomes slit up into bits and the bits swap over side so the chromosome that is in the sperm or ovary cell called gamete has some characteristic of the set of chromosome inherited form their father and some of the set inherited from their mother.
     
.
     How the child, seedling ,comes out depends on which genes are dominant on each set of chromosomes  you inherited from your mother the black eyed chromosome of your grandfather and it is stronger than the blue eyes you inherited from your father you will have brown eyes. Brown eyes normally beat blue eyes so if you are to come out with blue eyes you have  to inherit blue eyes from your father and your mother.
    Well, when the egg or sperm cell is going to be formed the two lines of chromosomes split up and interchange so if before one of the chromosomes the was one had a blue eyed gene on it and a big foot one you end up with the blue eyed gene being the new thread formed after the splitting up and swapping round  so that you end up with your blue eyed genes on the same chromosome as the small feet. So the chromosomes change before becoming an egg without talking of when they are partnered by the sperm or egg they are destined to pair up with.
 So your egg goes on and gets paired up with a sperm who brings their own chromosome and if the egg comes from a brown eyed person with one recessive blueyed gene that had not affected how the owner of the genes developed her o r hi egg might only contain the blue eyed gene and if the that egg is fertilised by a sperm with a blue eyed gene the child Will b blue eyed .
 in the case of an apple tree the seed is th first stage of the embryo and already fertilised egg full of the genes of the russet apple tree which has a brown skin as if it was covered with a thin layer of wood an dof some crab apple tree and maybe it would come out with a russet skin an dthe taste of the crab apple. because the genes of the parent tree have been jumbled up and the seed does not contain all th genes of the two parent trees only a random selection of them. so your kryusset crab child will not have apples that taste anything like the apple meat that its parent wrapped tits seeds in . that is why people clone a good tree or they hand fertilise flowers and apples to have bigger chance of getting a child like the parents .
 I studied biology
 
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I start my tree seeds in holed 5 gallon buckets to not damage the tap root.In the fall I just dump out the contents with no root damage and it keeps the critters away.Every year I coolect 200# of apples from feral seedling trees along powerlines ect..This year Iv been putting the cores on the top of my planted tree pots just to see what happens.I put old potting soil on top immediatly so birds cant get at the seeds.Some are already coming up from ones I planted in the fall.I didnt let the seeds dry out because I didnt want to induce seed hibernation as Ive had to wait over 2 years for dry hawthorn seeds to germ.Im concerned because,after reading the peach seed starting article it said not to store apples with peach seeds and now apple cores are sitting above my peach reasearch seeds.It might help induce germ. though?20%spitters would be acurate in my experience but with the lower tree costs,one could just cut those ones out(I still use em in cooking though.
 
steward
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Plankl wrote:
Everything else that grows from seeds have a tap root if not removed...



I'm going to go ahead and respectfully declare that statement to be false.  there are a great many plants that reproduce via seed and don't develop tap roots.  if you're referring to apple trees only, I'll gladly back off.

Hank wrote:
As for apples, they never grow true from seeds.  It's just the way of the plant.  There is only one Golden Delicious apple tree and it's in Missouri.  The rest are all clones.  And it's the same with all the apples you see in stores.  They all come from cloned trees.  I'm not saying you cant get good apples from seeds, just it's a real crap shoot.



might take a good long while, but I bet if somebody had the inclination and the space and the patience, that person could breed an open pollinated apple that would seed true.  that's what we started with, after all.  just like a new vegetable strain, only you've got to wait quite a while between generations.

Hank wrote:
As for tap roots on trees, I just cant think of any reason why having a tap root would make for a better tree?  Grass plants in lawns have been known to have roots going down 40 feet.  So if a grass plant can get down that far without a tap root why would a tree have to use a tap root?



I'm inclined to agree with Hank, sort of.  a taproot isn't the only way to get deep roots.  might be the easiest and fastest way, though.  any deep root, whether it's a tap root or otherwise is going to have access to deep moisture and minerals.  I think there are certainly advantages to seedlings, not least of which are cost/effort and the lack of transplant damage or shock.  the taproot probably also has other advantages, though they might be a bit overblown.

grafting onto seedlings seems to be a pretty good way to gain the seedling's advantages while still getting the selected fruit variety you want.  don't know if that's been mentioned yet, as this is a terribly long thread that I don't have the patience to wade through..
 
Aljaz Plankl
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tel wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and respectfully declare that statement to be false.  there are a great many plants that reproduce via seed and don't develop tap roots.  if you're referring to apple trees only, I'll gladly back off.


Please tell me which plant doesn't have a tap root if it grows from seed?
 
tel jetson
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Plankl wrote:
Please tell me which plant doesn't have a tap root if it grows from seed?



the Poaceae come to mind most immediately.  actually, I believe all monocotyledonous plants have fibrous roots, id est no taproot.  ferns, too.  all the Lamiaceae that I can think of.  FragariasMahonias.  the cucurbits that I'm familiar with.  quite a few of the Fabaceae.  all the aquatic plants I know of.  et cetera, ad nauseum.

I'm sure you're familiar with a lot of these, so I don't know what the confusion is.  it's probably just a simple misunderstanding of some sort going on here.  let's get to the bottom of it.
 
rose macaskie
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  Tel tap roots are just the name for roots that go down instead of growing vertically in woody specied plants so any root that goes down is a tap root.
    I saw on of those programs on mega structures type thing about carrying off a tree to a different place and they said most of the roots of a tree are superficial were in the first two feet of soil thye tried to carry it off when they had wrapped up theswe but it wouldnot come they had to chop through a or one or two deeper roots. you saw them wrap up all the roots you saw the depth to which they wrapped have you never seen a tree blown over with all it root plate in the air supperficaial roots.
  it maybe that grasses some of thenm have much deeper roots htat the great majority of tree roots.
  i h ave lots of fotos of roots here one of maples on th eedgve of a paht that has worn down exposing their roots and you can see some grow straight down and the others straight uot side ways it is like there is one trunk and lots of branches. These are once coppiced maples. agri rose macaskie.
raices-arce-montpell.jpg
[Thumbnail for raices-arce-montpell.jpg]
 
tel jetson
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rose macaskie wrote:
Tel, tap roots are just the name for roots that go down instead of growing vertically in woody specied plants so any root that goes down is a tap root.



well, that could be our problem: we're talking about two different things.  if you're using "taproot" as a synonym for "vertical root", then sure, pretty much every plant has some vertical roots.  language is a funny thing, so I won't say that's an improper usage, but that's not the dictionary or botanical definition of "taproot".

I believe that most folks would understand a taproot to be in contrast to a fibrous root system.  a taprooted plant has one major root that grows vertically with only small roots growing off of it and minimal branching.  a plant with a fibrous root system has many branched roots growing in all directions, including vertically.

that's how "taproot" is being used in the context of this discussion.
 
rose macaskie
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      In a tree, there are on the one hand roots that go out horizontally in a small area two foot below the surface and they extend on the horizontal plane, i have read, as far out as the head of a tree does, to where the water runs off the leaves of the tree in a rain storm the outer edge of the head of a tree which is called the drip point or at least the ground that is dripped on below is called that. If you walked around the tree just under the outer part of the crown of the tree then you would be walking on the drip point I don't know what happens if the tree is coppiced if the roots go out in a cricle that extends much further than the crown of the tree, i suppose so.
      Then a tree has a tap root, except there are some claims that not all trees have one or that they don't have one in all circumstances, such as if there are  enough nutrients and there is enough water at ground level to make sending down a tap root neccessary.
      I have heard of beeches who did not send down tap roots because they grew on chalk. My father explained it that this makes them vunerable to being blown over we where passing some trees that had been blown over. He said that as they grew on chalk  they  could not or would not put roots down into the chalk.
      Then in Roland Ennos book Trees i have read that trees with one tap root, in the fullness of time put down more.
     I have taken photos when i remember and found them of tap roots. I don't believe they branch much, maybe they branch at their lowest point, at the bottom of their trayectory.

     Then i think you call the first root of a seedling that does take a downward turn and for a while doesn't form a mesh of roots, a tap root though it belongs to a plant that will in the end have  fibrouse root system which does not include any roots that go stra¡ght down into the earth, outgrowing by far their companions when adult. 

      Is not it that trees send down a few really long and hardley  branching roots that is the reason we say they have a tap root, rather than because t they dont have a lot of superficial roots  just below the surface, something they certainely do have, all of them do, i believe.  The mass of high growing roots just below the head of a tree is  called the root plate. agri rose macaskie.
 
              
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Some trees respond to planting them deep like a tomato transplant. Others do not like it and take to an early grave. Not sure what the apple tree sapling thinks. Here's a video clip. The fun starts at minute 6.
or read the transcript starting with 'LONG-STEM PLANTING'.
 
rose macaskie
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b  I refered to my b ook on trees instead of just remembering what it said on tap roots and such and it did not say that a tree adquires other tap root in time but that it grows sinker roots. It says that were waterlogging stops sinker roots growing the trees can be very unstable. agri rose macaskie.
 
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Apple trees that you buy bagged and balled are usually grafted. You can see the "scar" at the base of the trunk. The part you see is grafted onto a root ball from another tree. The grafted area needs to be above the soil when you plant it and bark mulch should be kept away from the bark of the tree so boring insects and fungus can't find a home at the base of the tree.
If the area is too wet the tree will either put out a lot of surface roots which can be damaged by anything that steps on them or runs them over or the tree will just die or not thrive so it's best to plant the tree where it will do best.
Unless the soil is extremely loose you should never use a powered post hole digger for making the hole. It can make a sealed hole by polishing the inside of the hole and thus make a bucket for water to collect and drown the roots.
 
Aljaz Plankl
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Tel, thanks on reply. We were not on a same page becauze of a defenition... that's why i was a bit confused...
 
Matt Ferrall
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The apple cores that I buiried last year are starting to sprout.I only wanted winter storage apples(I am in awe that some people eat summer apples as Im quite sick of apples by spring and have other fruit to enjoy during the summer).I buried them under an inch or two of old potting soil in pots outside with no protection and the ones I buried that went through the entire winter are showing by far the best germination(20 sprouts per sq.ft.).The ones I put out last month have no germination yet.My conclusion is that apple seed could use some serious cold treatment in order to germinate.
 
tel jetson
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we've got an old apple tree that's been in decline for about twenty years in the middle of a strawberry patch.  there are currently maybe one hundred seedlings from apples we left on the ground over the winter.  I'm thinking I'll leave a couple to grow and maybe tie them into branches of the existing tree to try to revitalize it.  sort of modified inarching or pleaching.
 
              
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may be wrong place to ask, but has anyone trellised their fruit trees like you would grapes? I have been interested in doing this was wondering if seedlings vs clones would make a difference. Pretty sure I do not want one of the 5 species grafts (though maybe it would work).
 
paul wheaton
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Mt.goat wrote:
The apple cores that I buiried last year are starting to sprout.



pics?

 
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Hmmm,

I'm thinking of ordering and planting sweet oaks, black walnuts, black locusts and many other trees. The three that I mentioned have taproots, some of the others probably do too. And now you tell me that transplanting inhibits taproot growth! I knew it was too good to be true. I was trying to avoid growing from seed to get a headstart, especially for the nut trees. What if I get seedlings, would they be as affected as slightly older trees?
 
                              
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I liked the discussion about apples and taproots. 

Here is an interesting article about apples in Kazakhstan and the wiki link for the species mentioned.

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/2961/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malus_sieversii
"It has recently been shown to be the sole ancestor of most cultivars of the domesticated apple (Malus domestica)."
 
Brenda Groth
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update: Well when I was cutting trails through the woods last week, I managed to get a trail cut all the way back to the self seeded apple tree that grew from a deer bait pile back about 30 years ago, and the trail now goes UNDER the apple tree and around and comes out behind it and joins another trail..so there is no excuse not to get back there and clean up (prune and clean down branches around and thin out saplings around) that apple tree so it might be willing to bear me some good apples next year.

I never did taste the apples off this tree as i found the tree last year and the blossoms froze this year..so hoping for tasting them next year.

also our pond dig has not freed up access yet to the other self seeded wild apple by the pond, but i was able to pick those apples year before and they were yummy, golden and very sweet and musty tasting..the one by the back deck has really sweet red blush on green.
 
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