Apios as a perennial bean?

Reaching out to the Permieverse to see if anyone knows of Apios plants that set a lot of pods/seeds or larger pods/seeds.  I just bought some seeds from the Experimental Farm Network that I'll plant out to see how they produce and I have some plants that have set a few pods for me already growing in my forest garden.  I'm really interested in selecting for heavy seed production if possible, as I'd love to have some cold hardy perennial bean plants.  Hopniss seems like it has the potential to deliver this.
Here's an image from online just to show how lovely the pods look

source:  https://www.northernbushcraft.com/topic.php?name=groundnut®ion=ns&ctgy=edible_plants

Although hopiness plants set lots of lovely flowers, I've read that their flowers require more force for a bee to open and that this can reduce the number of pods that form.  I wonder if we could select for flowers that are easier to get into.
Also there's the issue with many northern strains being triploids and not setting seeds.  So another issue is selecting for diploids that ripen seeds in a short season.

I'm so jealous of this project. It's not practical for me to try and replicate here as I've never heard of Hopniss setting seeds here. It does seem to grow for me, and even flowered in the polytunnel, so there is hope maybe.

Greg Martin wrote:Although hopiness plants set lots of lovely flowers, I've read that their flowers require more force for a bee to open and that this can reduce the number of pods that form.  I wonder if we could select for flowers that are easier to get into.

I wonder if there is a particular strong armed bee that can get in to polinate them which is not widely populous? I've noticed some of our local bees, cheat and bite though the base of some flowers, which might also prevent them pollinating.

Also there's the issue with many northern strains being triploids and not setting seeds.  So another issue is selecting for diploids that ripen seeds in a short season.

Can you tell the difference between them visually, or will the proof be in the seeds setting? With triploid apples they can be pollinated by a normal apple tree, so can a triploid Apois be pollinated by a diploid one resulting in fertile seeds? my genetics is so rusty....this article on dandelions implies that it will be pretty rare, but I don't know whether Hopniss are likely to be the same.

greg, i’ve seen wild plants with fairly heavy seed set (and a month+ earlier than the named varieties i’ve been growing), but have lost the genetics along the way. will definitely try to grab some if the occasion presents itself again!

greg mosser wrote:greg, i’ve seen wild plants with fairly heavy seed set (and a month+ earlier than the named varieties i’ve been growing), but have lost the genetics along the way. will definitely try to grab some if the occasion presents itself again!

Bless you good Greg!!!  Very much appreciate that.

Nancy Reading wrote:I'm so jealous of this project. It's not practical for me to try and replicate here as I've never heard of Hopniss setting seeds here. It does seem to grow for me, and even flowered in the polytunnel, so there is hope maybe.

Greg Martin wrote:Although hopiness plants set lots of lovely flowers, I've read that their flowers require more force for a bee to open and that this can reduce the number of pods that form.  I wonder if we could select for flowers that are easier to get into.

I wonder if there is a particular strong armed bee that can get in to polinate them which is not widely populous? I've noticed some of our local bees, cheat and bite though the base of some flowers, which might also prevent them pollinating.

Also there's the issue with many northern strains being triploids and not setting seeds.  So another issue is selecting for diploids that ripen seeds in a short season.

Can you tell the difference between them visually, or will the proof be in the seeds setting? With triploid apples they can be pollinated by a normal apple tree, so can a triploid Apois be pollinated by a diploid one resulting in fertile seeds? my genetics is so rusty....this article on dandelions implies that it will be pretty rare, but I don't know whether Hopniss are likely to be the same.

Nancy, I've heard rumors of hopiness plants that self-pollinate.  If I manage to find such a creature I will get back to you about that.  The triploid apple is an interesting case.  My assumption is that they are able to set fruit when pollinated, but that any seeds would be sterile, if they set seeds.  I'm not aware of a way to tell if a hopiness is triploid by looks, but hopefully someone else knows.  I'll try and pay closer attention to my triploids to see what can be seen.  Extra chromosomes often leads to larger plant parts, so there may be a way to measure parts of the plants to find out, but not sure at all!

Greg Martin wrote:The triploid apple is an interesting case.  My assumption is that they are able to set fruit when pollinated, but that any seeds would be sterile, if they set seeds.  

I think Skillcult used a supposedly triploid apple variety in his quest for the ultimate red-fleshed apple. Apparently it worked. If that's because triploid apples can set viable seed, or because the one he used wasn't truly triploid, I don't know. But I do know that in some instances plants on different ploidy levels can cross. The result can be a plant with "odd" ploidy (like a triploid or pentaploid) or, if one of the parents already has odd ploidy, you get what's known as an aneuploid, where there are a number of full sets of chromosomes, plus some extra. For instance, if a tetraploid and a pentaploid cross, the offspring will have two full sets from each parent, plus a broken set from the pentaploid. If the offspring is fertile, and you keep breeding on it, it apparently tends to lose the extra chromosomes over a few generations and attain a "true", even ploidy. Here is a great article about how it works for potatoes.

Anyway, if you manage to breed a hopniss that sets seed reliably (or at all) in colder climates, I'm interested!

Greg Martin wrote:My assumption is that they are able to set fruit when pollinated, but that any seeds would be sterile, if they set seeds.  

I'm pretty sure I've germinated a seed from Bramley seedling (which is triploid) so fertile seeds can happen. I think they do set fewer seeds though.

I  think I'm still finding where Hopniss would be happy here. Too dry in the polytunnel, too cold in summer outside (although it does grow) At the moment I'm thinking boggy soil in polytunnel.....