Polyculture + Polyamory.

I'm bi, I always have been, always will be. I married my husband because I couldn't stand life without him, not because he is male. I would have married a woman had I met her first. I'm still looking for a woman who I can't live without. I've heard it said that love is the involuntary response to virtue found in others. I've met some very virtuous women in my day, but I have yet to reveal my virtues to a another woman.

My life right now is childless, farm less, and in what I call germination. My husband and I are working very hard to pay off the debit we thought was the way. I've found a slice of land with a very lenient landlord. So I'm able to at least try my hand at animal husbandry, and veggie growing. Once this shackle of debit is gone I will be free to move anywhere, and to finally achieve my dream of having children. I will never be able to have them myself. I would love to find a permaculture goofball, such as myself, who might possibly bear children for us. We will raise them on the farm I've always dreamed of. Oh, I'm not a dreamer, The farm I dream of is hard work, sweat, love, loss, filled with mistakes, potential, bad moods, and fantastic nights.

I like to describe myself as hearty Irish stock. Short, and squat to withstand the wind, and padded enough to withstand the cold. Although this working outside a lot thing is making me a little less padded lately. I'm a very creative person, thankfully I come build in with a very non creative husband that keeps me on track. He is very aware and supporting of me searching for a woman. While he is obviously a big part of my life, I'm not looking for someone to share with him.

Now, I would like to think that this will be well received by the permaculture crowd. I could be wrong. If your offended by my lifestyle I'm sorry you feel that way. I wish I could make it better for you. I don't want my existence to cause conflict. (f.y.i. I was asked to edit myself here, this is not my original text. I'm revealing that I'm censoring myself because I'm also an anarchist, and I don't like being told what to do but I am doing it)

Personally I don't believe that polyamory is sustainable. I feel that in such a situation will inevitably lead to hurt feelings which will lead to conflict and erode the foundations of the relationship(s?). You asked, so that's my two cents.

All that aside, I am confused about what you are looking for. Are you looking for a surrogate? a female lover to start a seperate relationship outside the one you have with your husband? both? It diddn't seem quite clear in your post.

I agree that I wasn't very clear. That's because I'm not sure what exactly I want, and I would never want to try and fit someone into a mold I've precast for them. If I find a woman that wants to be a surrogate and that's it that would be fine. If I find a loving relationship that lasts for a long time, that's great too. If she and I are comfortable adding the husband to a relationship, that would be cool. Really I'm open to anything.

And I agree that it might not be sustainable. I really think most relationships aren't. Sure I'm married, but I'm not religious, so this is more of a business agreement marriage. My husband and I both know love can wane, people slowly evolve over their lifetimes, and we might evolve separately. I think everything has seasons. Love especially. But because My husband and I rely on each other finicially, and we share the business of farming together we might last longer as a couple then our love will. Who knows? But I'll take what I've got now, and I'll be happy with it.

Thank you so much for sharing, even your objections. It at the very least helps me see things from a slight different perspective.

Monogamy isn't particularly sustainable in the modern world either. I think all of these issues....sustainable relationships, sustainable land stewardship, sustainable culture, are connected. The nuclear family is about as unsustainable socially as the nuclear family on a homestead is unsustainable ecologically. It's trying to do what the majority of human history has only succeeded in doing as larger collectives, extended families if not tribes and villages with a lot of cooperation. And I think that this process of fragmentation (proceeding now onward from the nuclear family to the single-parent family and the countless singles out there living on their own) has to some extent been encouraged in the interests of profit. Think of all the services that went on in old extended family households that are now outsourced into the money economy.....starting with childcare and eldercare, and going on to the whole cluster around food production and preservation and preparation......how many young people nowadays don't even cook? And a careful perusal of history will reveal (even in surprisingly conservative sources like the Old Testament) that various forms of polyamory and surrogacy were considered legitimate as well.....

Valerie Acquard wrote:Now, I would like to think that this will be well received by the permaculture crowd. I could be wrong. If your offended by my lifestyle I'm sorry you feel that way. I wish I could make it better for you. I don't want my existence to cause conflict. (f.y.i. I was asked to edit myself here, this is not my original text. I'm revealing that I'm censoring myself because I'm also an anarchist, and I don't like being told what to do but I am doing it)

just so there's no confusion, I asked Valerie to edit her post because she had explicitly invited criticism, and I thought that might go badly. but that isn't happening so far, so maybe that edit was unnecessary, which is great.


back on topic, polyamory doesn't really appeal to me, but I don't see any real problems with it, either. in fact, I can see a whole lot of potential benefit.

the coöperation and stronger ties with extended families and local communities that Alder mentioned do appeal to me. strongly.

Valerie, please understand that I wish you the best, and if you and your husband are truly aligned in this arrangement, then I see nothing wrong with it. I am also not religious and even if I was, it wouldn't be my place to pass judgement.

That being said, I am curious how this works out in the real world. What if one partner's love fades while the other's grows stronger? Is it possible to maintain the "business" part of a marriage when feelings are no longer aligned? Is it fair to open yourself up to the possibilty of stronger love with others, yet expect to be supported by your spouse?

I have never believed that love is something that happens to us, we have to open ourselves up to it first. In my view marriage is a house we build brick by brick in chosing to commit ourselves exclusively. It is built out of countless daily interactions, the little things that tell your partner that you care. It must be built on a solid foundation of trust or it can quickly fall apart. Although my wife and I have only been married for a little over three years, I am starting to see how reserving certain intamicies for only each other makes us grow stronger as a couple and into something greater than the sum of it's parts. Being part of that is well worth the sacrifice of missed opportunites in bonding with others. Perhaps I am too insecure or closed minded in ways, but I know I could never accept the terms the two of you have come to.

I think there are a lot of marriages out there that are, or have become, basically working relationships, often for the sake of providing children with a secure home. In fact, at other times in history and other cultures even today (such as India, for instance), arranged marriage was and is the norm, and is considered a practical necessity of adult life, just as modern Western people think of, say, having a vehicle or a job. Both romantic love and sexual desire are considered side benefits....nice if they happen but not guaranteed, and potentially distracting from the real purpose of the institution, which is the division of domestic labor and procreation. The point is that marriage and relationship mean many many things to different people....there are norms out there for particular cultures at particular times, but no universal human absolute without a fairly wide range of both practice, rationale, and emotion......

Alder Burns wrote:Monogamy isn't particularly sustainable in the modern world either. I think all of these issues....sustainable relationships, sustainable land stewardship, sustainable culture, are connected. The nuclear family is about as unsustainable socially as the nuclear family on a homestead is unsustainable ecologically. It's trying to do what the majority of human history has only succeeded in doing as larger collectives, extended families if not tribes and villages with a lot of cooperation. And I think that this process of fragmentation (proceeding now onward from the nuclear family to the single-parent family and the countless singles out there living on their own) has to some extent been encouraged in the interests of profit. Think of all the services that went on in old extended family households that are now outsourced into the money economy.....starting with childcare and eldercare, and going on to the whole cluster around food production and preservation and preparation......how many young people nowadays don't even cook? And a careful perusal of history will reveal (even in surprisingly conservative sources like the Old Testament) that various forms of polyamory and surrogacy were considered legitimate as well.....

totally agreed.
of course this doesnt neccessarily mean that people have to be getting naked with each other to share intimacy.
sometimes a true friendship can be much more intimate than a sexual/partnership relationship, we can "run the current" with people in ways that are beautiful, and not involve sexuality....think of a group of people making music together, having deep conversations with people, building something together, or communally tending a garden.

to be clear i am not responding to the OP, in that way....
just curious about these things myself, and have thought about, felt and experienced something similar to what you are expressing. especially when i was younger i explored a lot of this, and basically changed a lot as i got older, thinking it was not apealing, with things the way they are especially...

i have always been openly bisexual myself, have had multiple open relationships, and seen this work out ok, for a short time anyway. i do think that the whole two against the world approach isnt going to work, and that if situations were different people would have looser associations with each other, but theres so much dependency, insecurity that creates jealousy and other things that forces people into these monogamies.

i think people who have children together...well possible opening up their relationships could be a benefit, a way for them to be able to work things out long term...and if situations were more secure for people, if there were more community involvements and better social conditions....it would be more possible...this would be occuring more frequently...instead you have people who have to stick with their partnership where if things were different they would move on and be with another.

for me though all that changed a lot, now i would only seek one partner at a time, but seek community and interactions on that intimate level with multiple people, but it certainly doesnt need to be about developing sexual relationships, just intimate connections and friendships. actually i have personally been celibate for a long time, that is a whole different weird thing....but anywho i no longer think its all that functional or attractive the idea of open relationships....maybe if things were different it could work out ok.....it just seems it doesnt work well, imo, and from what i have seen. outside of jealousy or whatever, even if the people are really secure within themselves, its just like...well i guess people have different relationships...but in a partnership theres a kind of help mate quality...and if someone is off with another it could be quite weird for the partner who doesnt have other partners, who needs to rely on their partner for that help mate kind of relationship, build things together and for support.

i do knkow some people who are married or in long term partnerships who have made it work and not be a weird thing, i think that is great for them...but i have also seen it not work out many more times. the couple i know has it very clearly all out there...like they have a sort of rule about it...they can be with other partners as long as it doesnt interfere with their main partnership. i guess different people have to work it out between themselves...what works for them....

I think a lot comes back to the scarcity mentality of modern culture; scarcity which drives fear, which drives possessiveness, acquisitiveness, and jealousy of all sorts. And the whole idea that intimacy of any sort can become an expectation or obligation of any kind, rather than a freely given gift.....which ultimately leads to a partner, friend, or community member being treated like a resource or a possession. What's the way out? There is some thinking around these issues going on out there....HAI, NFNC, the Zegg and Tamera communities in Europe. (Tamera in particular is involved with a lot of permaculture also). Of course, these are all usually far away and too expensive.......

Way to go Valerie! It is great that you put yourself out there. I think it is beautiful that you are willing to love without limits. The world would be a better place with more lovers in it~! Best of luck finding someone.

Another poly permie here!

Everyone has their own idea about what polyamory means to them. My own vision is more along the lines of polyfidelity, though I wouldn't mind the freedom to play as well. I don't have any particular configuration in mind. I think that just depends on what happens. I just find that I love others easily and find it really difficult to close myself off to other who I might connect really well with. I've found this out through monogamous trial and error, that I just don't sit well with a mutually exclusive relationship.

Just in case anyone here doesn't know what polyamory is though, I just thought I'd point out this website which has a lot of good info about it:
http://www.morethantwo.com/polyamory.html

I have to chime in too. There are almost as many versions of polyamory as there are individuals in the lifestyle from what I have learned. No one style is right or wrong, better or worse, they are just different. Now toss in a little religion, spirituality, politics, and other things we tend to take to heart and man it gets complicated. Poly isn't for everyone, nor in monogamy, celibacy, or any other relationship format.

I am all for freedom of choice and find that my ideal situation is more in line with poly-fidelity. Sure playing can be fun, but it also can hold some risks, both physically and emotionally. Personally, I and those around me have a fair amount on our plates just taking care of business to be horsing around. Like most of the things I try to do I like to remain focused.

I have to say that I am happy to see so many poly people here on Permise.com. It's great that there is a respectful place here to share our views, lifestyles and passions, including the one for permaculture.

Peace, out...

Been quiet on the thread lately so I figured I would check in. My seedlings are growing like crazy and I a have taken down a few trees to let more light into the gardens. Still need to trim back a couple of morn to catch that early day sun. Going to try to do some Global Bucket gardening this year too, see how that works. Been to the site a few times, had some good eats over the open fire.

Still looking for others in New England that are interested in hanging out, talking about the potential for an intentional community, maybe spending some time together working at the site and getting to know one another and just chillin. Was hoping we might have a few more folks from the central New England area that were interested in getting involved.

Feel free to chime in if you would like to connect.