Manifesting a dream

Skandi Rogers wrote:My first point is that most regulations exist for a very good reason, discriminate picking of mushrooms exterminates them from the area, in my opinion noone should ever be able to sell wild mushrooms, Some areas have had total bans put in place on picking due to over picking for sale.
Nurserys have to be licensed and inspected to stop people indiscriminately digging up wild plants and selling diseased plants etc etc. (If you want to sell plants from public land that will probably require another permit or be flat out illegal)

Here you cannot sell "Wild" (read picked on public land) mushrooms but you can sell anything from your own land, or other private land with the owners permission.

The next point is very different insurance. without the right permits you will not be able to get insurance and selling without insurance seems a very unnecessary risk especially for the tiny TINY fees you are talking about. The last thing to think about is the fines, how high are they? are they something you can live with?


I wouldn't ever let people free reign to U-pick they will wipe out the easy plants and might pick something poisonous and kill themselves it would be an insurance nightmare, besides who wants strangers tramping everywhere!


The fees you have mentioned come to a whopping $132 a year, you'll be spending more on packaging than that.

Abraham Palma wrote:You only need to certificate what you are going to sell. Anything else you might produce which is outside of your controlled zone you could exchange for other products, not selling them.
Where I live you need permits if you want to have more than 4 chickens, but up to 4 chickens you can rise them and eat their eggs. I know people who have that, and sometimes they can't eat all the eggs they produce themselves, so they gift them to friends. Friends in return gift them with other stuff. It's not a 1:1 exchange, but it works.

Brody Ekberg wrote:I hear and see all these videos of happy, “successful” permies, but don’t understand how they make it happen. Do they all start out young and debt free? Do they file for bankruptcy and start fresh? Do they just dwindle away, struggling and living 2 lives until retirement and then live the dream? I assume there’s no 1 answer, but I haven’t found any answers for someone in my position. It’s strange; I feel so fortunate to be where I’m at in life, but so unfulfilled and wanting. I so badly want to educate local youth so they can avoid debts and get started on this path earlier on than myself. But how hypocritical of me to try to get them to avoid becoming like me from the standpoint of a privileged person so learned all this by means of having a stable and secure job... I feel like I have no credibility and yet could be highly motivational at the same time. Such a paradox

Michelle Heath wrote:From a business standpoint, it takes lots of hard work to make a living doing what you love.  We've been completely self-employed for fourteen years now and it requires lots of commitment and the ability to plan ahead.  My husband loves what we do but I admit my love for it has diminished over the years and I too want to garden and grow for a living.

As for licenses and permits, unfortunately that's part of any business.  I'd ask specific questions to the licensing agency about your concerns.  Also ask yourself how big would the fine be for not having the required permits.  

While I'm guilty of wanting to jump into most ventures with both feet, I'd suggest just starting with one at a time.  Which will bring you the most income with the least amount of time investment?  That's what I'd start with and then maybe add something new every year.  Then you would have an idea of how much time it takes to maintain venture #1 and how much time you can allocate to venture #2, 3 and so on.  

As for U-Pick operations, I did work for a business that had several different ventures operating at once, both plant-based and non plant-based.  One of those was u-pick berries.  While I think they've reduced the number of ventures to two, the berry operation is still going strong.  I do know that they did get into a bit of hot water for advertising as organic when they didn't have the licensing to do so.

Susanna Hammond wrote:Hi Brody.
First, I hear you! It sounds like a life of integrity is really important to you. I also hear a lot of inner conflict. As a former counsellor, group facilitator, teacher and occasional motivational speaker in my former life, I would offer that alongside the practical outer parts of pursuing your dream, you find some ways that really appeal to you for working through some of the inner issues and conflicts. I can feel some real sources of stress there and they could certainly make the process a lot more bumpy and a lot less rewarding than you're hoping for. No judgement..... it's just part of the work we all get to undertake as we pursue living according to our values. This inner work will also give you a lot that you can pass on to younger folks!

Re: the money conflict.... It's a tough thing to be in business with a hatred of money! I say this from personal experience. I resented money in lots of ways.
I highly, highly recommend Mark Silver's Heart of Business website and his course Heart of Money. I took it twice. The second time I used it to catch up on 9 years of unfiled tax returns and call in an overdue personal loan, resulting in $4,000 Cdn in income during the program. My feelings about money itself were completely rewired. (distinguishing here between money as a flow of lifeforce and capitalism, etc.) Here's the course page:
https://www.heartofbusiness.com/training-programs/heart-of-money/

I'll also pass on my favorite book on growing for profit in wooded areas: Farming The Woods.
I'm on 14 acres of boggy black spruce in Nova Scotia and I'm hoping to plant wild leeks, ginseng and endangered woodland medicinals, like goldthread, etc. Here's the link to the book.
https://www.amazon.com/Farming-Woods-Integrated-Permaculture-Medicinals/dp/1603585079

Unfortunately, I can't help you with the licensing part of the equation. I'm sure others with more knowledge will chime in.
Best wishes to you!

Michelle Heath wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:I hear and see all these videos of happy, “successful” permies, but don’t understand how they make it happen. Do they all start out young and debt free? Do they file for bankruptcy and start fresh? Do they just dwindle away, struggling and living 2 lives until retirement and then live the dream? I assume there’s no 1 answer, but I haven’t found any answers for someone in my position. It’s strange; I feel so fortunate to be where I’m at in life, but so unfulfilled and wanting. I so badly want to educate local youth so they can avoid debts and get started on this path earlier on than myself. But how hypocritical of me to try to get them to avoid becoming like me from the standpoint of a privileged person so learned all this by means of having a stable and secure job... I feel like I have no credibility and yet could be highly motivational at the same time. Such a paradox

I can totally relate Brody.  Growing up we were programmed to either go to college, work or both.  I married a year after high-school and had no desire to go to college though I maintained a high GPA through school.  Why not college?  I spent 13 years in school living up to prescribed expectations and having most of my creativity stifled and honestly had no idea of what I wanted to do for a living.  I worked throughout the marriage and between the two of us we lived comfortably and built a house.  Then he died soon after being diagnosed with cancer and that's when the debts started piling up.  I attended college in the evenings after work and happily was able to do so with mostly grants for the first two years.  When I started college I was led to believe my employer would contribute but soon found out that wasn't going to happen, so I changed jobs so I could attend on campus three days a week and that's when I had to take out a student loan.  Luckily I had a great financial aid advisor who pointed out which loans were protected from high-interest rates and advised to borrow no more than was needed.  Unfortunately by the time I remarried I was hopelessly in debt and with the addition of my new husband's debts it looked hopeless.  It's taken many years but we're totally debt-free except for the student loan and I hope to have it whittled away in the next year or two.  

We seem to be part of a society that values material things too much. We have friends that go into debt for Christmas every year and whether or not the previous year's debt is paid off, they do it again the next year.  Why buy the 60" TV if the 32" one is still operational?  Why buy $100 jeans when you can shop the thrift stores for a few dollars?  

I hear and see all these videos of happy, “successful” permies, but don’t understand how they make it happen.

Brody Ekberg wrote:I’ve listened to/read Dave Ramseys stuff and hear about people becoming debt free and it sure sounds enticing. But honestly, paying off $150,000 of debt seems more unrealistic than me levitating on command. Im actually really optimistic that the student loans may be forgiven soon, and that would just leave the house debt, which is nothing considering we could just sell the house. But for now, this house and property is the foundation of manifesting my dream. I love it here and would hate to leave, but starting clean and fresh sounds fantastic as well. And I understand you have to spend money to make money, but it never stops! Everything I want to do to save money requires money to make the changes! Water catchment, solar power, growing our own food and chickens... all costs money. 2 steps forward 1 step back is still forward progress though I suppose. Maybe thats what I need to focus on!

Abraham Palma wrote:

I hear and see all these videos of happy, “successful” permies, but don’t understand how they make it happen.
I did question that myself several times, and I think I understand a little bit more. In my opinion there are four successful permaculture groups:

Thank you for this response, you really laid things out well! I agree that I’m already “successful” in one of those groups and that I need to kind of set my sights for where I want to be in the future. The struggle with the money aspect of things is that my wife and I dont see eye to eye on that, but that’s a different topic.

I definitely think that, at least ideally, I’ll be bridging the gap between several of those groups in the future though. In my mind, producing most of our own food for our family and living sustainably in our own way is #1 priority. After that, or as opportunities present themselves, I would love to make money in related fields and have several ideas on how to do it. I think maybe taking a pdc or something similar to get my “papers” could be wise. Then I could start a small sustainable edible landscape design business. Also, selling some plants, herbs, mushrooms, vegetables, eggs and seeds can give me connections and a customer base. Id also love to teach local youth, which is strange because I’m not someone who does great around kids. I just want to inform them of what I didn’t know while I was in school. I had to figure this stuff out in my mid twenties as I was already in a career and accumulating debt. I’d love to help them understand permaculture and it’s importance before they commit to college, mortgages, careers and whatever other responsibilities “normal “ life pushes at us. Help them to see the significance, the opportunities and give them the resources to make it happen. That is really important to me.

John Young wrote:Brody,

You have already gotten some good advice in this thread. I have gotten the distinct impression from the conversation thus far that there are some underlying financial issues here.  I am a bit concerned your current plans cost much more money that you may expect and would exacerbate those underlying issues.

Coming from a family that ran a small business, it does not sound like you are in a great financial situation to be starting a small business. I would strongly encourage you to not spend additional money on the things listed, but rather figure out where your money is going and reduce your expenses to pay down your debt. (budgeting, spend less, save more) Over time you can work yourself into a better financial position to be able to transition your “hobby” into a “business.”

If you are serious about getting this going, as you pay down your debt figure out very low cost methods to really get started. Bite off one piece at a time, preferably start with something that is low risk but lets you really get a taste of what it is like to do this day in and day out. Often fun hobbies become work when you have to do them day in and day out.

Sorry that this isn’t what you probably wanted to hear.

Skandi Rogers wrote:Perhaps you should look at it backwards.

Decide how much money you need to make in a year, then list the things that could make money in YOUR market, I wouldn't count foraged products from 2.5 acres and I wouldn't rely on any foraged products at all to pay bills, simply because you have no control over them, a bad winter or dry summer and you couldn't pay the bills. Then find the going prices of those things and see how much you would need to sell to hit that target, is it possible? Is it reasonable? Obviously you won't make all the money selling mint but remember that trying to start 1000's of cuttings and keep animals and grow mushrooms all at once is setting yourself up to fail unless you are already experienced at doing all these things in bulk.
After I had a list of things I could do that could make me money I would look at the startup costs and how long it takes. growing veg is very low input and is medium fast, Strawberries are very high cost and take several years to pay back, eggs are high cost but instant, mushrooms are also fairly high input and depending on the type can be a medium term or a long term project, Cuttings and such are going to be fairly high input and depending on type slow. Foraged items of course cost very little (packaging and fuel) but are not consistent.

Look for cottage industry laws, some states have laws where you can do smaller amounts of things like jams without being certified. As an example I can have up to 30 laying chickens and sell eggs with only a paperwork registration but if I have 31 then I need to spend a huge amount of money on tests every 9 weeks against salmonella.

If you put me in Abraham's groups I'm a mix of 3 and 4 we run a small farm selling vegetables and fruit. but we are also in the poor category, we don't take holidays, don't buy anything new, don't have smart phones, don't eat out etc etc. because of that we can stay home and fuss about the place, it does become an issue sometimes and I totally agree that saving money costs money, I would love to add a wood furnace in place of an old oil one to back up the pellet furnace that is the main heat but we can't afford it, the same with better insulation or solar hot water.

Michelle Heath wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:I’ve listened to/read Dave Ramseys stuff and hear about people becoming debt free and it sure sounds enticing. But honestly, paying off $150,000 of debt seems more unrealistic than me levitating on command. Im actually really optimistic that the student loans may be forgiven soon, and that would just leave the house debt, which is nothing considering we could just sell the house. But for now, this house and property is the foundation of manifesting my dream. I love it here and would hate to leave, but starting clean and fresh sounds fantastic as well. And I understand you have to spend money to make money, but it never stops! Everything I want to do to save money requires money to make the changes! Water catchment, solar power, growing our own food and chickens... all costs money. 2 steps forward 1 step back is still forward progress though I suppose. Maybe thats what I need to focus on!

I've heard of Dave Ramsey but have never read/listened to any of his work.  It took several years for us to get out of debt and it basically started by determining the amount we could live on after utilities and changing our lifestyle.  From there we took the largest debt and paid a bit extra every month.  It doesn't happen overnight.  We closed our shop within a seasonal market last year due to the pandemic and the fact that the owner has let the property go downhill.  What surprised us was that when we considered our rent, gas, food and drinks while working, we saved over $500 a month.  That's $500 worth of merchandise we don't have to sell to break even.  So while we're selling considerably less, we're seeing more profit.

Im going to suggest tackling one thing at a time on your property as well.  I've spent years trying to tackle too many things at once and now that I have a child, I want to enjoy my time with her instead of being too busy working on seemingly endless projects.  I fully expected to have a greenhouse by this time but time, money and health dictated otherwise.  It's still at the top of the list for this year but lots of little projects (leveling, foundation, etc.) need to be tackled first.  I had also planned to test the market with herb plants as well this year but that depends on the pandemic.  I may simply concentrate on building up my stock and propagating this year.  

Have you looked into buying used proponents for your water catchment and solar systems?  Availability would probably be limited but that would be a great way to cut costs up front.

Lorinne Anderson wrote:I often think of this oft used adage: "...penny wise and pound foolish..." as being backwards. So much money vanishes and is disregarded on the "small stuff". The drive-thru coffee is a prime example... it's just a few bucks, but it is THOSE expenditures that add up, frightfully fast, to the tune of hundreds if not thousands in a year.

Cutting out the "coffee" or other such luxuries can provide the funds for the critical infrastructure that is desired.

Finding used or repurposed items can cut the cost of a project in half, if not more. Looking into grants, tax breaks etc. can also lower costs, or perhaps someone has "new tech" and wants a guinea pig for testing?

Perhaps hire on (or even "volunteer) at a company that builds/installs the systems you are interested in. It is a great way to earn income/experience AND get a sharp discount...  

Sometimes the best way to save for or finance a project is to just think "outside the box" for alternatives, rather than just pay cash (oh, that can often get you a discount!).

i dont get it but whatever.

Abraham Palma wrote:

i dont get it but whatever.

If you are into spiritual things, the tea might be a ritual that appaises her fears, so her soul is calmer when she performs the ritual. Remove that from her and her mood will turn very ugly. It's a good thing that you respect her ways. Give her some other luxury she can indulge on, if you really want her to be able to pass purchased hot teas. But honestly, that's already a pretty cheap indulgence.

All wild, all organic, all free and all right in our own home.

Lorinne Anderson wrote:After reading the comments since and in response mine, I have to support Susanna in her comments.

I notice the use of "I", not "we" in the majority of your statements. I notice multiple times where you clearly comprehend your wife has a different, even strongly different viewpoint on an issue; and yet you seem to blow it off as "a different issue" or "her issue", as if the contradiction is simply a small annoyance, not worth wasting time over.

Please do not think this comes from judgment, in fact it comes from fear.

I fear, YOU think you are both sledding along nicely in the snow; when in fact you are an aspiring Olympic Luge or Bobsled runner and your wife thinks you are with her, content at the toboggin hill, with your future kids.

Neither is right or wrong; they are just VERY different. Please, listen to Susanna. It is time to have a very open, cards on the table dialogue with your wife; total honesty from you both. Going forward you need to know that when you come to a fork, your joint understanding of your collective goals will cause you BOTH to choose the same road, everytime.

Susanna Hammond wrote:Hi Brody.
I see two major sources of stress in your writing. One is easier to work with as it's internal, but one is a BIG RED FLAG!

It takes a lot of energy to do all the planning and work you're thinking about. It also takes a lot more energy than you might realize to be constantly thinking things SHOULD be different than they are at this moment. Is there a way you could totally embrace your job and salary right now as a way to fund your dream? To understand that you are totally supported (at a time when thousands are losing jobs) and that just maybe everything is working out perfectly?

Now to the red flag...

It sounds like you and your wife are on REALLY different pages in terms of the kind of life you're dreaming of. Are there already children on the way in your near future?
I can hear clearly in your words that you and she have very different definitions of what a good life looks like.  This is, in my estimation, a recipe for hell! You have the opportunity now to find your way to the same dream so you can fully row together towards it.

As a woman (and experienced counselor) I might venture a guess that she married you in the life and job you currently have assuming that you will eventually let go of your dream or she will be able to change / slow down your execution of it, especially once you have children. One of the biggest energy drains, when it comes to creating a dream, is someone in your life who is actively working against it! Does she know what your full-on vision for a life of integrity looks like down the road?

If you're wondering whether you might have a subconscious desire at work to NOT make progress toward stepping away from your job, I would point directly to the possibility that your wife is not on board with that. I did personal coaching with people on life purpose for many years and the #1 reason people don't move toward a dream is the possibility of angering or alienating a person close to them who wants them to stay the same.

My husband of 6 years and I separated in 2019 because, no matter how hard we tried to work it out, we were just not working together but in opposition. I went traveling, doing work exchanges, some on farms. Ironically, we both had 2 years of experiences that have led us to appreciate each other's take on things a lot more and we've reconciled. We now have a clear plan for how we're going to prioritize our major goals and how we will divide the work and who has authority in which areas and which ones are shared and require consultation. We never had any of that before.

I will say here unequivocally that "Whatever" is NOT a strategy for reconciling with the different life goals and lifestyle your spouse is holding. If the money is shared and you each have different ideas of what to do with it, and/or if you have to ask permission (as I did living on my husband's property) for every little thing you want to do, that is truly not going to be a life of peace and enjoyment. And I guarantee, it only gets worse unless you're actively and joyfully working together or you're both actively in full support of your spouse's chosen lifestyle.

I know I'm being a little harsh about this. But with the possibility of children in your future, I don't feel inclined to hold back. This could become THEIR hell, along with yours.

It would be great for the two of you to sit down and talk about your goals and dreams from the stance of "I really want to help us both have a great life together with everything we really want." If that doesn't feel possible on your own (that's a sign in itself), find someone to help you have that conversation in a kind and supportive way. With enough love and goodwill for each other, a lot of difference can be worked out. And yet, completely opposite visions of life is a harder thing to reconcile. Better to look it in the face sooner than later.

Abraham Palma wrote:

All wild, all organic, all free and all right in our own home.

It's not hard to see that these things are not what she values in her tea cups.
I don't get people that feel moved over a piece of poetry or a modern picture, but other people value these things.
That's not craziness, that's simply different values.

My father's family is the same, they all love to take breakfast in the caffeteria. I can't stand it. It's not that I dislike the food, but it's something so freaking cheap to prepare at home that I don't see the reason to have breakfast outside when I have time to prepare it myself. But they do. And this means that I have to accompany them to the coffee when I pay a visit to them. Why do they like it so much? For my uncle I could argue that he really does not have time to prepare his breakfast, and he is not skilled enough either. But the others, I suspect they do it to show the village they have the means to do it, in the first place, then it's an established habit. You know, what's the point about having money if you can't show it? I believe this is what they value most, being able to show their status. It's a very human thing, by the way. But if you ever ask them why, they will say that it's because they like it, what else?
I think this difference in values is because I don't give a damn about what other people might think of me, while they are very consciuos about their status.

Susanna Hammond wrote:. I'll admit, I had the impression of a relationship with fewer miles on it. It sounds like the two of you have rolled together through quite a lot over the years and withstood some major tests. I'm really happy for you! There must be some strong intentions holding you together, or you might have come apart by now.

I also definitely agree that her caution is a very good balance to your "enthusiasm", lol. And yes, I would say it's very good news that our thoughts have been motivating, rather than a total downer.

From the perspective of both a wife and counselor, the one thing I would recommend is that you find a way together to have fruitful discussions that aren't blowouts. We tend to inherit whatever ways our parents worked things out.

Re: how you're feeling at work..... I was thinking a moment ago, I wonder if you could enjoy the feeling of being in your workplace but not "of it"..... sitting there at your desk knowing that you are energetically, just by being there and being you, broadcasting the subtle seeds of change all over that place. I wonder if there are others there holding some of the same ideas that you haven't met yet. Intention is a powerful thing. By intending it, you just might find another subversive at your work place who is also flying under the radar like you are.

Maybe life is like being on a trapeze at the circus, haha.

Abraham Palma wrote:

Maybe life is like being on a trapeze at the circus, haha.

I urge you to write this in your profile signature!

Brody said Does anyone have ideas or advice on how to tie this all together, preferably in a way that makes us some money.


I hate money

Anne Miller wrote:

Brody said Does anyone have ideas or advice on how to tie this all together, preferably in a way that makes us some money.


I hate money

Is this a love-hate relationship?

I have not read all the replies so I hope you have gotten some answers to your question.

To me, what I get from your original post is that you want to sell but can't sell due to regulations.

What about barter and garage sales?  Or can you put stuff on the front lawn like a few trees and mushrooms to sell for a little cash without the regulations?

Doing this you might make enough money to find out if it will work and be worth the fees for licences.

Abraham Palma wrote:

-A final group are those that tried and failed, and never told anyone. There's a reason you don't hear these stories, people dislike to talk about their failures and to learn about other people's failures.

Long ago, when I thought I wanted to be a business person, I regularly read a half dozen different business magazines in an attempt to wire my brain for success. One of them was "Success Magazine", which often ran editions that were centered on failures. These articles, which were essentially autopsies of business failures, were extremely informative and often the most honest articles the magazine printed. It's a shame that permie people don't or won't tell their stories of failure, although I'll admit I'd be the last one to do so.  

Brody Ekberg wrote:
I feel like I’m a human being conformed into a robot’s world. If I want to sell something and you dont trust me or my lack of credentials, then go away. If you do trust me and dont care about paperwork, then you should be able to buy and i should not have to worry. Middlemen drawing lines in sand really complicates and muddies up a dream.

Michael Helmersson wrote:
At the heart of nearly every bylaw or regulation is a belief that without government oversight, everyone would be evil. By government interfering with peoples' freedom to be either good or bad, we have lost the ability to discern for ourselves who we should trust. Instead of being motivated by receiving positive reinforcement from happy customers, people are fixated on the fear of penalties. I think you're absolutely right to feel like this system is flawed.

Brody Ekberg wrote:
I just found out today that it might be illegal in this state to “wild ferment” food. As in, not use a specific approved culture of bacteria for the ferment. Prime example of how we can turn a blind eye to natural processes that work just fine and have for thousands of years, and replace them with restrictions, rules and penalties all stemming from a place of fear... very frustrating. It seems almost impossible to be an authentic human being and make money. You almost have to sell at least a little bit of your soul one way or another if you want to be a part of this society.