Making money from a passion

Jennifer Kowalski wrote:A few questions to help tailor advice:

1. Does your wife work? If so, would she keep her job while you start whatever business you decide on? How about during pregnancy and while the children are very young?

2. What are you already doing on your acreage?

Re: pregnancy/birth/babyhood, insurance is a different weight than later on. As an example, if for whatever reason the pregnancy ends in a c-section, that can be five figures just by itself. Babies also generally see a doctor fairly frequently their first year or two to track growth and milestones to catch any delays/problems as early as possible. Pre-and-post natal care is also multiple appointments for mom, especially if there’s any complications. For a healthy child, the cost will go down as they get older and need fewer visits. This doesn’t mean you’re stuck with the job purely for that, though; have you looked into ACA subsidies?

Brody Ekberg wrote:

Jennifer Kowalski wrote:A few questions to help tailor advice:

1. Does your wife work? If so, would she keep her job while you start whatever business you decide on? How about during pregnancy and while the children are very young?

2. What are you already doing on your acreage?

Re: pregnancy/birth/babyhood, insurance is a different weight than later on. As an example, if for whatever reason the pregnancy ends in a c-section, that can be five figures just by itself. Babies also generally see a doctor fairly frequently their first year or two to track growth and milestones to catch any delays/problems as early as possible. Pre-and-post natal care is also multiple appointments for mom, especially if there’s any complications. For a healthy child, the cost will go down as they get older and need fewer visits. This doesn’t mean you’re stuck with the job purely for that, though; have you looked into ACA subsidies?

My wife does currently work “part time” but has a lot of complaints about her job, doesn’t make much money, gets taken advantage of and has debated quitting many times. I wish she would, because I think it would be more valuable to have her at home than gone making a couple bucks for her struggles. We haven’t discussed whether or not she would work during pregnancy or after. I sure hope she doesn’t, but I also hope she follows her heart and not her mind. Part of the reason she hasn’t quit is because of feeling obligated to utilize her degree that we’re in debt over, even though its hardly worthwhile and she certainly will never pay off her student loans with the job she got from her degree...And I dont know what ACA is so no, we haven’t looked into subsidies.

As far as our home property goes, we moved in 3 years ago and have planted a hedge, a perennial herb garden, some perennial flower beds, several trees, cut a bunch of trees, built and are constantly expanding an annual garden and are working on rain water catchment now. Half the property is a wooded ravine and the other half was bare naked yard. My goal is to stop mowing lawns and convert as much of the yard to food forest, perennials and vegetable gardens as manageable and to share the abundance.

M James wrote:Hi Brody.

No matter what your job is, there are going to be things you do and don't like about it, and days you just don't want to do it. I like how enthusiastic you are about wanting to do something you're passionate about, though.



You are correct about people thinking that you should become debt free as soon as you can. It may not be as difficult or take as long as you think. One of the things we have done, and we're still working on it, is learning to do without. For example, we haven't had cable tv for many years. We are so busy we don't even miss it. That's kind of a big bill to get rid of, too. Another thing we've done is that I've never had a smart phone. No bells or whistles, no contract flip phone. $30 a month unlimited talk and text. Works for me. Whenever possible, I shop at thrift stores and garage sales for clothes, furniture and housewares. I'd rather pay .25 for a t-shirt than $20. Also, if there is something I want or need, I try to make it myself.

Also, learn ways of doing things a bit differently so that you are more independent of others and of utilities. Some of these things may be inconvenient. Most are the result of thinking outside the box. We bought solar flood lights and use them for our lighting in our house. I use cheap wash cloths as "paper towels" so that I can use them over and over. I make my own cloth napkins and dust cloths, which are washable and will be used for many years. I haven't needed to buy paper napkins for a very long time, compared to using a whole large package of them in a week or two. Unplug everything you aren't using; it really does make a difference. Little things like this add up to big savings, but also lead to more independence.

You have interesting ideas with the edibles. I like it. There is a restaurant in St Louis MO that specializes in wild edibles. I don't know how the business is doing, but you might decide to talk to the owner. I'm not sure if it's the same guy, but there's somebody in that area that makes lots of money by providing restaurants with foraged stuff like mushrooms, etc. Maybe you could check in your area to see if there is a market for that at restaurants or specialty grocery stores. That way, you'd have an instant market for it, and also get to do what you love to do.

Eventually, if you cut your expenses considerably and use your money wisely, you'll dig yourself out of debt. The other benefit you'll get is that you'll realize you can live on a whole lot less money, so you won't need to earn as much. Some things aren't fun to give up, but you get deep satisfaction out of knowing you're much better off and can take care of yourself and your family without relying as much on stores and utility companies.

Good luck on going after your dreams, I wish you much success!

T Simpson wrote:Well I'm in a similar boat, although no debt. My advice having started a few businesses in the past is this: start small with one thing; maybe just selling eggs. Do not try and branch out into any other product until that one product is doing well and you have developed a reputation. Once that is stable only then branch out into creating more income streams. I would say that you could think of your current job as a stable predictable product and you could start to branch out into one additional income stream. But you have debt so is your current job really profitable yet? Debt should always be the first thing to go before investing in a new venture. Once you have a blank slate to work on and something stable to fall back on fear of the unknown wont hold you back.

M James wrote:I forgot to add: instead of buying expensive, chemical-laden dryer sheets, I made my own out of flannel. I spray some white vinegar on about 3 of those per full load and toss in a couple of those wool balls. Works like a charm. I also don't run the dryer more than 20 minutes per load. Obviously, the laundry isn't dry yet, so I hang it all up on clothes racks to finish drying. No static cling. No perfumy smells. Just clean laundry. This summer I'm hoping to add a clothesline.

Brody said My wife has given me her blessing to quit whenever, but expressed that I should wait until after we have a child or two so we have the money and insurance during pregnancy and birth. Sounds logical but I dont see a stop to that logic as the child ages...

Jennifer Kowalski wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:

Jennifer Kowalski wrote:A

ACA = affordable care act. :) you can get subsidized to offset insurance costs if your income is too high for Medicaid but still below a certain amount.

Sounds like your ideal would be both of you finding something else to do. Would you two potentially be going into this business together, then?

The “one thing at a time” is a good way to start - you’ve got your homestead foundations going, now identify some of the easiest small/scalable potential income streams from it you can do right now and explore those. If you feel odd selling your produce or worry about burnout, think of it as not so much a forever thing but as exploring one of the avenues you want to someday assist your clients with. If you want to understand a permie market gardener’s needs, doing it for a few seasons makes sense. If you find it’s not a “forever plan” for you due to interest/passion, you still made progress towards your consulting/designing business or however else you want to take it, and you get some critical small business experience.

As for the guilt - If your wife is on board with the homesteading work, if you haven’t already, you might sit down and work solid numbers out on how much you could save and/or how much more you could provide for yourselves if she quit and put those hours into more food, animals, etc. - and also if she’d be willing to start growing humans sooner rather than later so you can speed up your quitting timeline (if you go the “quit after babies” route).

The degree will still be there in 5-10 years, and so much of college is learning to process information. My degree is not the field I work in, but it is still valuable to me. The opportunities of the future are impossible to predict!

Any particular reason you’re waiting on kids?

Thanks for the tip about the ACA, I’ll keep that in mind!

We have discussed several different income ideas, some of them involved us both and some were just me. She feels a very strong desire to be a mother and I hope that means that staying home will suffice to keep her happy. I have no problem being the provider so long as someone else is taking care of things while I’m gone. Right now, we’re both gone so nobody gets anything done all day, and she’s not a mother yet so also feels like she can’t quit working. I could see the landscaping business being seasonal since we live in zone 4, and maybe the fermentation business could be an off season gig. We’ve also discussed a wilderness preschool sort of idea, which seems so very needed, is related to her early childhood education degree, and would help fulfill my desire to educate youth and give them purpose. It also seems like it could be a great way to put a lot of time and effort into something that barely generates any income, but that’s purely speculation right now.

About kids: I’m basically the sole reason we’ve been waiting. Up until 3-4 years ago, I had no intentions of bringing more humans into this mess. I was depressed, hopeless and felt like it would probably be for the best if we all stopped reproducing and let the race fizzle out. I had a mental blowout/spiritual breakthrough about 3 years ago and totally changed my perspective on life. I found my purpose, fell in love with myself and life and discovered permaculture. It was that that spurred us into buying a house and getting to where we are at now. She’s always wanted to adopt and also give birth, but I’ve just been acclimating to the idea these last few years. I only have 2 things holding me back now, and I’m working my way through them:

1. I feel a drive and an urgency to align my life with nature. To stop depending on foods from far off lands, to stop depending on utilities, to stop polluting and contributing to climate change. I worry that parenting will slam the brakes on that process. I’ve been trying to get so many things done before having kids so that once they’re here, I can enjoy it somewhat and not view them as a speedbump.

2. The idea of being financially responsible for another human being terrifies me. Mostly because I want to quit my only stable source of financial income! I know the pregnancy and first year or two are the expensive ones, but honestly, does anything get cheaper with time? I also have a deep feeling of hypocrisy because of my current lifestyle. How can I try to raise a child to behave differently than I’m currently behaving? I worry that, sometime in the future, young people will look at me as the source of their problems, similar to the way that so many young people look at the baby boomer generation now. I myself was brainwashed by a loving father who was doing his best and feel as though I’m digging myself out of a hole now because of it. I’d hate to tell anyone “dont be like me” and continue on creating problems for myself and the world. But I am trying and changing my ways. And I know that I’m the one who dug this hole and jumped in. I just didn’t know of any alternatives at the time besides living like a nomad or hiding in the woods like a hermit (which is actually how I used to envision my future!)

Brody Ekberg wrote:
I really dont know how people get debt free though... I mean I can imagine doing it, but it sounds like a hellish, miserable several years and, realistically, more debts are inevitable unless you live like an ascetic.

Anne Miller wrote:

I agree with your wife.  I can also tell you that "as the child ages ..." it doesn't get any better.

Kids get hurt and need to go to the emergency room. kids need school supplies, kids have activities that cost money, etc.  I was so thankful when my kids left home so I could have money to enjoy the things I wanted.

If I were in your position, I would start paying off that debt so you can feel comfortable about starting a business without the worries of how am I going to feed my family, etc.

My husband and I have been there and done that several times.

I know! Plus, we will have both sides of the family projecting their fears and believes onto us about needing my job and how irresponsible it is to quit. Right now, I couldnt care less about being irresponsible... but we have no children yet and fully expect my attitude to change once we do.

I also dont know how we could possibly pay off that debt without just selling the house and starting over, since that’s 3/4 of the debt right there. And I am willing to sell and move, if and only if we can do it without just incurring new debts in the process. And if the place we move to supports a worthwhile vision of the future. The thing is, our current location is basically ideal (in our eyes) for living the life we want to live. It just requires a mortgage and utility bills for now. And the bitching paradox is that any step towards eliminating utilities or saving money by doing more things ourselves takes time, but our jobs take time! Its really hard not to feel stuck between a rock and a hard place, even though I know I willingly put myself there! I basically feel like I’m living 2 lives right now: the real me who is largely suppressed and just wants to play with soil all day and the bullshit me who does things he doesn’t need or want to do because he wasn’t taught anything else as a child and now finds himself feeling trapped by his own doing...

Another thing that I’m still really curious about that nobody has touched on is whether or not making money from your passions is even a good idea. I dont know anyone who does what they love and has done that for a long time. I can easily convince myself that its ok that I play this stupid game for now so that after work or on the weekend I can pursue my passion. But if I pursue my passion 40 hours a week (or more), will that just become a burden to me? Can someone make money doing what they love for an extended period of time and still love doing it at the end of the day? I dont know. Maybe me having a job that doesn’t align with anything meaningful in my life allows me to find meaning in the rest of life. Id hate to give that up and find that, after doing edible, sustainable landscaping for 10 years I now have no interest in doing those things at home or with my own children.

M James wrote:Skandi, I have a husband problem lol! He isn't nearly as enthusiastic as I am about wanting to be self sufficient. What that means is that I wouldn't be using the dryer as much if he would cooperate with me on the clothesline situation.

Skandi Rogers wrote:Pick your fights.

We can do this because we have no debts or children. (and because we don't live in the US)

...you spend 5-10 years NOT buying things so you can spend the rest of your life not being owned by someone else. It's delayed gratification and I'm afraid that there is no magic way around it short of lotto wins or inheritance. If someone want to keep their flashy phone, their cable tv and all the other "luxuries" then they completely hamstring themselves.
If you start slow and without more debt businesses take years to get going and actually start making money, you can speed some things up with loans, but that's more risk of course. What's going to feed you and pay that mortgage while you build up a customer base and a name? If your wife has to work full time who will look after the kids? More debts are only inevitable if you are living beyond your means, there is nothing besides a house/land (or in the US medical bills) that you need to go into debt for.

Jess Dee wrote:I'm going to take a different tack, and make two suggestions / share a couple of thoughts.  

First, it sounds to me like you and your wife really need to sit down and have a long, honest talk about your needs, wants, and hopes for the future.  I'm hearing that she wants kids, but you are not so sure, both due to social / environmental concerns, and also due to the responsibility.  I'm also hearing that your spending habits and beliefs about money and debt may not be closely aligned.  It also sounds like you want your wife to be a homemaker, but that may not be what she wants, and also may not be possible if you quit a secure job.  

These are things that it may be important to resolve, or at least get out in the open, before making a decision that impacts you both so substantially, especially if there are likely to be children in the equation sometime soon.  

Second, why do you need to make money by pursuing your passion?  I have turned several hobbies into income streams, and I have to say, it can really wreck the fun.  I understand wanting to align your employment with your values, but there may be other ways to do it.  You say you work in a utility job.  Could you take a different utility job that relates more to something like renewables or retrofitting?  

My story here - I work a job that I despised when I started, and still dislike much of the time, though not so intensely.  It is a difficult and stressful, but also well paid and very stable job, that supports my family and also pays for a lot of other really important things, like my fruit tree habit.  

Because it's a good income, we could afford for my husband to be a homemaker, and stay home with the kids; he also gardens extensively and tends the chickens (and goats, when we have them).  I am much less stressed with him doing the cooking and cleaning, which makes the job more bearable; it also allows us to align the non-job parts of our lifestyle more with the permie end of things.  He likes working for our family, rather than a boss.  We've had this arrangement for ten years now, and it's functional for us, even with the issues with my job.  We don't plan to change it.  I have another 10 years or so until I can retire; I expect my hobbies will easily take over my days at that point.

Personally, I don't feel a need to get paid to follow my passion - I follow several passions in my off time.  I know this isn't an attitude that would work for everyone, but I think it would be worth considering when you are facing significant debt, a spouse who is not onboard with sacrificing to reduce your debt, plans for children in the near future, and a passion that isn't likely to ever supply you with the kind of income and job security you have now.  

I guess I'm mostly trying to say: don't discount the idea of plugging along in a stable job, and getting your true fulfillment in other ways.  

Jess Dee said "First, it sounds to me like you and your wife really need to sit down and have a long, honest talk about your needs, wants, and hopes for the future.  I'm hearing that she wants kids, but you are not so sure, both due to social / environmental concerns, and also due to the responsibility.  I'm also hearing that your spending habits and beliefs about money and debt may not be closely aligned.  It also sounds like you want your wife to be a homemaker, but that may not be what she wants, and also may not be possible if you quit a secure job.

Anne Miller wrote:

Jess Dee said "First, it sounds to me like you and your wife really need to sit down and have a long, honest talk about your needs, wants, and hopes for the future.  I'm hearing that she wants kids, but you are not so sure, both due to social / environmental concerns, and also due to the responsibility.  I'm also hearing that your spending habits and beliefs about money and debt may not be closely aligned.  It also sounds like you want your wife to be a homemaker, but that may not be what she wants, and also may not be possible if you quit a secure job.

This! Communication is the heart of a marriage. Both partners need to be on board with alike thinking.

I always ran my marriage as if it was a business and we were business partners. It just doesn't work if there is no understanding of both parties' wants and needs.

I read that you want to have a sustainable landscape business.  

First, a person needs a sustainable marriage and a healthy relationship with their spouse. Communication, again.

Also, I feel that a sustainable marriage does not have debt that will not allow both parties to follow their dreams.

The best way to pay off debt is to seek help.  Dave Ramsey offers a lot of free help.

A person can't expect to pay off the debt in a short period of time it takes years and knowing that is your family's goal.

Here are some threads that might be helpful:

https://permies.com/t/140785/saved#1104242

https://permies.com/t/95768/FIRE-financial-independence-retire-early

https://permies.com/t/43767/net-worth

Best wishes for your financial future and marriage.

Brody Ekberg wrote:I love that you take a different approach to this, that’s my style!

We have had long serious talks about this, and we are generally on the same page. I tend to forget that this lifestyle is a choice that we made together and end up wanting to point blame and feel like I deserve better. But how can we deserve better than getting to shape life and reality exactly how we choose? Seems like the golden ticket to me, although there are so many distractions that the golden ticket easily gets misplaced or forgotten about, at least in my life!

About kids: she has always felt compelled to be a mother. I never considered parenting until the last few years. Now, I really like certain ideas about it, but question my motives. I know I cant make a child live the way I want, and I cant live vicariously through them. They will be their own person, which scares me because I dont want them to end up in the situation I am in. I want to provide them with absolutely zero reasons to feel like they need to leave home, leave the city, leave the state, go to college or get a “job”. I want them to grow up understanding and experiencing that most of what they need to live and be happy is surrounding them and the only reason to go elsewhere is out of curiosity or desire, not necessity or obligation. And the responsibility isn’t necessary what turns me off the most, its the fact that between working full time and being a father, I dont see how I will be able to get anything done at home as far as making “progress” or any significant changes towards sustainability or self sufficiency. That’s partially why Ive been busting ass for a few years is because once I’m a dad, I dont think I will be having the time to do these things.

As far as our perspectives on money: she says as a child, they struggled to pay bills and considered themselves to be poor. My definition of “poor” is a lot more extreme than struggling to pay bills. We always had plenty of money growing up, but my dad never felt it was enough. He acted like we were poor and struggling, but he was making a bunch of money, we had all the conveniences and he was stashing a bunch away for the future. I have been working since 14 and have always had a savings account that I worked to keep supplied. I have never felt poor and honestly, feel like I could be way happier dirt poor and struggling to stay alive. My demons are all of overindulgence, not of wanting more. I tend to do better in scarcity than abundance. She has no intentions of feeling “poor” again, and I cant convince her that she never really was poor. I have no intentions of being wealthy, and she cant convince me that I wouldn’t be happier with less... so here we are in between!

About being a homemaker: I feel this is where I shine. Doing what needs to be done because it needs to be done. I love weekends, days off, being quarantined, and being on sick leave because all I do is directly related to the wellbeing of our life. All day at work, I feel disconnected and distant from life. I dick around for 8 hours and in return, a black number on a white screen changes. Then I have to go somewhere else to turn that number into actual money to buy actually useful things to directly benefit our life. Its too complicated and goofy of a system for me feel at home in. Money is useless to me. Just a bad idea that we wont let go of. I would be so happy as a stay at home anything, but she has a degree in early childhood education and can barely make any money in that field. I’m the one with the high paying job, and that leaves me as the one that leaves home all day every day...

I love how you question why I need to make money off of my passions, because that’s exactly what I’m questioning. I can definitely see myself ruining all the fun and enjoyment of playing in the dirt if I spend all day doing that for other people so that they give me money. A good example is how I love fishing. I used to be laid off all winter and fished pretty much all day every day. I started because I loved it. Shortly after, I realized I felt obligated to go fishing and if I didn’t bring home fish, I felt like a failure. My joy turned into an obligation and a duty and was no longer enjoyable. Same with hunting. I would take 2 weeks off to hunt deer and a few days into it realize that I’m taking it way too seriously and going at it with a work attitude instead of enjoying it.

I feel torn between sticking this stable “good” job out for now and making the most of the free time, or bailing on this shit and making the most of life period. I do believe we need a certain amount of struggle and conflict in our lives, and we aren’t getting out of that aside from attitude adjustments. But 8 hours every day just feels like too much for me! It’s unreasonable to only allow myself an hour or two every day to do what is important to me. And I feel like dirt for saying it because I know so many people who work more for less and are happier. But I am not those people. I feel like a screwdriver being used to pound in nails all day at work, and money and benefits don’t change the fact that screwdrivers are meant to screw, not pound!

Jess Dee wrote:

To me, it sounds like both of you should consider working hard towards the goal of your wife making a living wage at a fulfilling job, then getting you home to do the homemaking.  Saving money is, in many ways, often easier / better than making it.  When my husband quit working for money, we had a big adjustment period where we felt broke a lot of the time, but then he got in the swing of cooking our meals from scratch, gardening, repairing things, etc, and now we don't really need a second income anyway, even though we have since added two kids.  We are also much richer in time and lower in stress.  Again, though, I make a good wage, and we're in an area with lower cost of living (a decision we made specifically because it allowed us to afford an acreage on one income).  

Kids can be expensive, but don't have to be... though I don't know how medical expenses play into that, because I'm from Canada and don't have to deal with your medical system.  Kids definitely make it very hard to accomplish much beyond parenting for the first few years, but once they're four or five, things get quite a lot easier.  Mine are a bit older than that, and they are actively helpful some of the time, and are rarely a hindrance anymore.  They can play independently for long enough for the adults to get significant work done.  

I will observe that yes, you create your life, but there are always tradeoffs, and lots of the tradeoffs suck, at least for a while (sometimes for a long while).  There is a self-help author I like, Mark Manson.  He talks about choosing the flavor of s**t sandwich that you can deal with.  It's a bit blunt / crude, but that suits me, and might fit for you, too.  Look him up.  He's written a couple of books, and there's some really good advice in there.  Actually, I'm going to link one of his blog posts you might like, but it definitely comes with a very strong language warning.  Here's the link.

Nancy Reading wrote:Brody,
Unfortunately you cannot have your cake and eat it too!
You have stated your problem quite clearly.  To service the debt you have and remain in the property you love you need a well paying job like you have now.  I sympathise with you having been in less than comfortable jobs myself in the past - hey I worked for Jaguar for 10 years helping build gas guzzlers!  I remember very well feeling like the round peg in the square hole.  I moved company twice (spending too much time in the loo in tears at one job), and twice again within companies.  It's scary, but can be done, and often results in more money, since they seem to think that's why you're wanting to move. You have skills that could be used in a different industry segment, perhaps one that fits with your values better.
It took myself and my husband 20 years to break free, and we still work now, but for ourselves and at least with the comfort of knowing that our corporate pensions previously earned will pay us more in our future retirement than we are earning now!
A few things to help:
As time goes on the debts seems smaller due to inflation (hopefully). Our mortgage of £63000 seemed much smaller after 15 years than it did at the start (less than twice my husband's salary as opposed to three times our joint one). Since we were not in our 'forever home', although quite comfortable in suburbia, we were happy to sell it to buy this property outright (cheaper properties here as well).
Reducing your money outgoings does have an effect, a bit like melting an iceberg.  Maybe if you could use this, by paying off part of your debt with it, it might help to keep motivated. Draw some charts that you can fill in to see your progress beyond the status quo towards your debt freedom.
Concentrate on enjoying your off duty time, and making the most of it.  Maybe build up some residual income, or get your name known in whatever field you think may be a replacement money stream.
The good thing about hitting your head on a brick wall is how good it feels when you stop!

On another point there is never a good time to have children.  By this I mean, if you wait until the time is right you may never have them.  I wanted children and my husband didn't when we were first married.  By the time he'd come around and it seemed right for us to try, I was thirty.  A few years passed before we realised we had problems in conceiving, and despite various medical efforts I've never been pregnant.  Adoption never appealed, although I could consider fostering, our house probably wouldn't be fit! Just a gentle warning not to leave it too long.  Although children don't come cheap, they don't have to have everything new either!

Life is not simple, unless you make it so.

G Freden wrote:We are within £13,000 of paying off our mortgage, as a consequence of working at sucky jobs, cutting our expenses down to the very bone, and living very frugally--and putting every spare penny onto overpaying.  On our current trajectory, we can pay it off in two more years, which will be six years early (on a 20 year term).  We could have paid it off already had we been living this sort of lifestyle right from the beginning, but we were younger and perhaps less wise.  Only a few years ago we had credit card debt and car loans/personal loans;  finally paying these off lifted such a weight off our shoulders.  Some people would consider our lifestyle unacceptable:  we don't buy anything we don't need, and we don't buy anything new if we can get it secondhand.  And yet, in two more years we can throw off the chains of debt, forever.  We will be free.

T Simpson wrote:Well I'm in a similar boat, although no debt. My advice having started a few businesses in the past is this: start small with one thing; maybe just selling eggs. Do not try and branch out into any other product until that one product is doing well and you have developed a reputation. Once that is stable only then branch out into creating more income streams. I would say that you could think of your current job as a stable predictable product and you could start to branch out into one additional income stream. But you have debt so is your current job really profitable yet? Debt should always be the first thing to go before investing in a new venture. Once you have a blank slate to work on and something stable to fall back on fear of the unknown wont hold you back.

Brody Ekberg wrote:
I don’t want to burst your bubble or knock your positivity down, but I do feel that assuming you will be debt free forever is asking for a rude awakening! You mentioned a mortgage, which means you have a house. What happens when you need a new roof, windows, water line, water heater... And you mentioned not having car loans. Ours are paid off too, been that way for a year or two. Yay!... then I blow a head gasket and now we’re looking at buying another vehicle. Sure as hell wont be new, and I’d like to not take out a loan for it, but considering other expenses, we will see what we can do.

I’m not trying to be a downer or sound negative, but I feel like so long as we want to own a house and machines and depend on public utilities, debt will always be a monster lurking under the bed. And if we keep that monster at bay for years and years, it inevitably may pop up when we least expect it. Granted, its much easier to pay off a $4,000 loan for a car or a water line or a roof than to pay off a $100,000 mortgage. Thats kind of where were at now: pay off as many small debts as possible and try at all costs to avoid taking out more loans in the future. If we get down to just student loans and a mortgage, I’m alright with that, so long as we can make payments. But all those things I listed: car, water line, windows, garage roof, water heater, furnace... all very likely going to need to be replaced within the next 5 years. Paying for that, while paying bills, putting money into retirement, paying other loans and building an emergency fund, while still living, will be tricky to say the least!

elle sagenev wrote:Pay off all your debt, save up an emergency fund and then pursue your passion. Quitting your well paying job with all of that debt will turn your passion into a nightmare.

elle sagenev wrote:
Not trying to be a downer I'm just pragmatic. My husband actually did quit his job, which made 3x more than I do and stays home. It's not a problem for us. Financially we are fine. Not having debt is what made this all possible for us. I worry for you. I think you should be totally freaked out about your debt and tackling it with all your might!!!




As for your other comments on debt, we've been debt free for 9 years now. Got debt free before our first kid was 1 and he's 10 now. We have a savings account for everything. We have a medical savings account. We have an unexpected expenses savings account. We have a "we can live for a year if you lose your job" savings account. We also experience everything in 2's. When my car blew up the transmission went in our "spare" car 2 months later. We don't have expensive cars but my husband just got a really nice used subaru for 11k which we paid for completely in cash and then replenished the account that money came from because my car is definitely on it's way out. I see no debt in our future. When debt isn't an option in life it's pretty easy to be debt free.

elle sagenev wrote:I keep responding, :P Can't help it. I know I've been going on about the money and I do think you're not taking that seriously enough, however, I also get passion. I don't wake up every day thinking, "Boy I want to go to work and discredit victims of pedophiles to save our client". Some of the things I do really haunt me emotionally. But, I have all these great things. My job enables me to buy trees and tractors and build greenhouses and ponds. My job feeds the pigs. It's bought sainfoin seed. It's paid for my passion and boy do I have passions. I don't see it as an either or. I work for money because I can't do all the things I love without it. Of course a part of me does enjoy my job. I get to really delve into people's lives and it's fascinating. Traumatizing, but fascinating. You make great money and if you didn't have all that debt just think about what that money could DO. That money could build everything you've ever dreamed of on that land you own. It could set up a food forest that will feed you for life. Stop thinking of your job as what's preventing your passion. It's not. It's what is going to make your passion a reality.



Also, I'm getting my Masters and my final paper is all about picking a business and analyzing operations, trying to fix it and make it profitable basically. So if you have a real plan I'm one class away from that final paper and I'd be happy to take your business idea and make it my masters paper, I have to pick something.

Skandi Rogers wrote:

I actually think that this post you made is the most telling. $4000 for a car? wow there's 160% tax on cars here and I wouldn't consider spending that. we buy one with a new roadworthyness certificate (which lasts 2 years) and expect to replace it at the next test. If you want to work a passion project you need to really bring down your expectations.

But the most important bit is you don't stop saving when you pay of the debt, you start putting money away instead. As soon as we bought the car started saving for the next one, we now have enough in the "car fund" to replace it should it suddenly die.  Roofs do not just fall off (if they do that's what your insurance is for) you start saving before it happens, a steel roof has a lifespan of 15 years but it can be patched well beyond that while you save money.  We replaced the roof on our last house, we had it professionally measured and then put it all on including straightening the rafters and setting all the new wood ourselves the only extra cost was hiring a lift. The boiler broke this year (the flame sensor died) of course it did that at 3pm on a friday when it was -8 outside that is exactly what we have savings for, it's also what we have blankets and a backup heater for if we don't want to pay for an emergency call out.


If I were you..
Try making some fermented things just in your kitchen, take them round everywhere you can think of and see if anyone is interested in buying them.  If you can find one hire a commercial kitchen and make larger amounts, take them to a market and see if they sell. (depending on your local laws you may not need the commercial kitchen)
Sit down and work out how much money you need to pay everything and live on, is that fesable self employed? If it is work out what training etc you would need to do it. and get that training. save up at least 6 months expenditure.
go to the bank with your business plan.. get your start up loan and go for it. If you want it to support you from the start you'll probably need to jump right in with a loan and all guns blazing.

Also, I want to say that I know a lot of you will think becoming debt free first is most important, but I honestly dont see how that’s possible.

Mike Haasl wrote:Maybe this is off topic but would you have the certifications and background to be an electrician?  Or do solar/wind installations?  Maybe there'd be decent money in those lines of work and they might be slightly more closely aligned to your passions?

Unless you can throw $30k or more at your debt each year, it'll be hard to get rid of it any time soon.  But being debt free (including the house) is a pretty rare situation.  It affords a ton of freedom to do what you want but you'd be 1 in 100,000 (for your age, living in a house).

One interesting thing I'm finding about permaculture is that if you do it enough, people start to want to pay you to do it for them.  In my case it's a combination of handyman stuff, teaching homesteading skills and odd jobs.  They wouldn't pay the bills but I'm also not pursuing/promoting them at all.  Or in other words, if I wanted to make money at it full time, I'd have to be a lot more serious about getting jobs.

I think the landscaping and handyman area has enough demand, even in a smaller town like Iron River.  Even if it's just doing "normal" landscaping with a clear focus on the environment.  In my area if you're a plumber you can get so much work you don't even have to answer the phone.  Not sure about landscaping...  Plus in the winter you can shovel roofs and or plow if you want to do that sort of work.  Or harvest balsam boughs or birch poles.