I've got the land, a lot of much information.....and not nearly enough experience

Hi Everyone,
In December we purchased this 40-acre farm. My plan in the beginning involved getting a tractor and ploughing the hell out it plant a bunch for crops and sell what we do not need at a consignment shop I'm partnered with in town. Then a friend of mine sent me a link to this: Permaculture Design. Now I don't really know what I want to do. I know I would like to plant trees first, but where? The area by the creek is wetlands, so I don't THINK I can do anyting on there besides letting the livestock graze there. The creek has fish in it. I plan to make the barn the aquaponics growhouse/greenhouse. After that I've got no Idea.


The barn is running north south


Any information is appreciated!!!

Damian Jones wrote:Hi Everyone,
In December we purchased this 40-acre farm. My plan in the beginning involved getting a tractor and ploughing the hell out it plant a bunch for crops and sell what we do not need at a consignment shop I'm partnered with in town. Then a friend of mine sent me a link to this: Permaculture Design. Now I don't really know what I want to do.

Trees take the longest, so start those first. There are trees that can tolerate wetter environments.

I recently moved to a 5-acre plot and had similar ambitions. But proceed with caution. Growing stuff sounds good and it is---until you have more than you can use. Then you need a plan for the excess. Also, you may not need a tractor. Sometimes you can do better with a tiller that takes attachments.

Go on youtube, and watch some of Geoff Lawton and Ben Falks longer videos, when I first started I had a similar idea to you but I realized there were many more design factors that I wasn't taking into account. Sustainable drainage and water retention for example to minimize flooding and give you the ability to irrigate at the same time. Also that its possible with some careful engineering to create forests of food producing trees which can produce food for you and your family to eat or sell with minimal yearly input.

I read up quite a bit on permaculture and came to realize it can offer quite a lot more than conventional farming can for someone in a situation like yours or mine.

Thanks for the direction Ian...this information will be a great help.

Ian Taylor wrote:Go on youtube, and watch some of Geoff Lawton and Ben Falks longer videos, when I first started I had a similar idea to you but I realized there were many more design factors that I wasn't taking into account. Sustainable drainage and water retention for example to minimize flooding and give you the ability to irrigate at the same time. Also that its possible with some careful engineering to create forests of food producing trees which can produce food for you and your family to eat or sell with minimal yearly input.

I read up quite a bit on permaculture and came to realize it can offer quite a lot more than conventional farming can for someone in a situation like yours or mine.

What a beautiful place! Congratulations.

You have so much opportunity. Do you have help? Do you have another job or are you setting up shop as a farm business as your income? Do you have a lot of debt? How do you feel about livestock?

Fruit and nut tees and timber management would be on my mind if I were you and I would think about fences before I thought about a tractor but I am not a tractor expert. I might build up a beef cattle herd. Maybe pigs. I'm not up for dairy cows right now but some people love them.

How are your winters?

So many questions. I don't have all the answers but I have lots of questions!

Matu Collins wrote:What a beautiful place! Congratulations.

You have so much opportunity. Do you have help? Do you have another job or are you setting up shop as a farm business as your income? Do you have a lot of debt? How do you feel about livestock?

Fruit and nut tees and timber management would be on my mind if I were you and I would think about fences before I thought about a tractor but I am not a tractor expert. I might build up a beef cattle herd. Maybe pigs. I'm not up for dairy cows right now but some people love them.

How are your winters?

So many questions. I don't have all the answers but I have lots of questions!

Questions are the important part... I guess I came on here looking for better questions than I already have. I will try to answer the ones you have posted. It is my wife, daughter (age 7) and I. I have posted for a woofer, but I am not hanging my hat on that.
I do have another job, thankfully not too far away and the boss is ok with me ducking out when I have too...as long as the servers are running well of course.
IDK if it will be a business per say...I would like to sell the surplus, so yes I would like to have it setup so I could get to the harvest in not to difficult a manner. I've pretty much ruled out tractors...I've never been into fixing engines and I would have to get something 2nd...maybe 3rd hand for it to be practical.
The previous owners had cattle and most of the electrical fencing is still there, but I dont want to push around those huge animals. I'm going to go with a Dexter cows and just 1 or two depending mostly on what I find here. I will have bacon...er pigs. they can eat anyting (bacon) and they dont smell bad if they are taken care of properly (bacon) and I can raise them from spring to harvest (bacon!!) as soon as the winter leaves I'm building a fridge smokehouse....and maybe make some bacon.

Damian Jones wrote:

Matu Collins wrote:What a beautiful place! Congratulations.

You have so much opportunity. Do you have help? Do you have another job or are you setting up shop as a farm business as your income? Do you have a lot of debt? How do you feel about livestock?

Fruit and nut tees and timber management would be on my mind if I were you and I would think about fences before I thought about a tractor but I am not a tractor expert. I might build up a beef cattle herd. Maybe pigs. I'm not up for dairy cows right now but some people love them.

How are your winters?

So many questions. I don't have all the answers but I have lots of questions!

I've thought more about the project after finding out more about Fukuoka's natural way of farming. I will do the section A with rotating barley/clover and rice..Idk about the rice but I figure it is worth a shot. I will start off with the barley clover to condition the land and hopefully use the barely for fodder come the winter. Section B are paddocks for the live stock...having the pigs free roam is dependent on what I can get for fencing. To front two ponds are already there, but may have to be dug out and refreshed with water from the creek. I plan to get survey that as soon as the snow melts and maybe use my snowblower to help it along but IDK if that is feasible...ton a snow out there...up passed my knees. I will have a smaller permacultured garden in section C...it is currently a lawn but I would like to experiment with the hugelkultur and use some fallen brush and trees from this years winter snowfall.

What's wrong with this plan, what's dumb. I'm looking for a good critique.

Thanks,
Damian

Man that's a nice spread.. If I were you I would build a pen for the hogs right in between the lower B's and use portable hog net (electric) so you can rotate them a few times a year, planting the clover after they have rooted and fertilized for you. If you plan to overwinter any livestock it is beneficial to have electricity near the pens/shelter so you can de-ice water troughs and run a heat light or two if need be.. I have a very similar setup, albeit not so tree'd or large.. I run hogs, chickens, turkey and bees. My neighbor has all the cattle a guy can stand to smell, so I don't run any cattle. I have 2 breeding pair of hogs, usually between them and the offspring they will beat down an acre within 2 months. My chickens run ahead of my hogs but they aren't nearly as hard on the land. By that I mean I rotate them to the land that the pigs will move onto next.. They (the chooks) pick through what they like, poop all over the place (this is a good thing) and then the hogs kind of till it all in behind them. I broadcast clover behind the hogs and my bees love that.. If you get a lot of bugs, the chickens really help to keep population down, which is good for your garden.. And free eggs aren't ever a bad thing to go with all that bacon.. If you give me some time I can get an areal view to kind of explain what I mean. I only have 18 acres and its almost a perfect square.. The net works for my chickens as well as the hogs, but its pricey, and you have to train your hogs to the fence. If we didnt have so many predators I would let them free range, but with the amount of land I give them, I dont think I restrict their movements much anyhow. They always have fresh grass and clover to pick through. I like your idea to turn the lawn into garden.. Lawns are a little over rated in my humble opinion.. You're lucky to have that creek. When we bought this place 20+ years ago, we had one as well, now we just have a pond in a deep spot where the creek bed bends.. Some wet years it flows pretty good.. But its been quite a few years since that has happened. We let the neighbor run cattle through the creek and it just wasn't wise on out part. If anything I would, if I were you, limit them to a small section of creek as far downstream as you can.. I know you said only a couple cows so that will make a big difference, we ran 20 head through ours about 1/2 mile for 5 months out of the year, and it really just turned the water to nothing you want to eat out of or dip your toes in. The mono-culture that goes on around here hasn't helped that. The ponds would be best utilized for the cattle/hogs in my opinion. The important part is to rotate wisely. If you leave your cattle or hogs on one section of land to long it can take a long time to heal.. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I've been collecting pallets 10 or so every week from work to make "permanent" paddocks for the area. They are free and easy to come by. Other than that my plan is almost identical to what you are doing. My biggest concern at the moment is how much land to allot for the animal feed. I would like to use the grow the barely, cut, and thresh it. I hope to bag the seed and use the straw to feed the animals. I would see this to be successful is the if I can feed the animals all winter long and still have enough seed left over for the next planting. Here is the livestock list we have come up with: 1 (or 2) Dexter cows, 2 Kinder goats for milking, 6 ducks, 2 geese, 20 chickens and two small/medium pigs (I have not research which breed of pig would be best yet, but need to get cracking on that soon).
Thanks for the compliment on the land. I had my eye on it for years and finally the owners wanted to get away from the cold ( It's an unpleasant -12 this morning and my fingers are not responding correctly yet) and I jumped on it. The creek flows steady and I hear the trout are plentiful. I plan to post all my success and failures to help guide those who come after me, no sense in making the same mistake twice if you can avoid it.

What kind of hives do you run? Any recommendations on the breed of pig to get? I dont want something so big it will be hard to handle the first year since it is my first year of farming...ever.

Thanks for the insight it really helps to hear from someone that is actually doing the same thing I am planning on doing


~Damian

Kevin Hedrick wrote: Man that's a nice spread.. If I were you I would build a pen for the hogs right in between the lower B's and use portable hog net (electric) so you can rotate them a few times a year, planting the clover after they have rooted and fertilized for you. If you plan to overwinter any livestock it is beneficial to have electricity near the pens/shelter so you can de-ice water troughs and run a heat light or two if need be.. I have a very similar setup, albeit not so tree'd or large.. I run hogs, chickens, turkey and bees. My neighbor has all the cattle a guy can stand to smell, so I don't run any cattle. I have 2 breeding pair of hogs, usually between them and the offspring they will beat down an acre within 2 months. My chickens run ahead of my hogs but they aren't nearly as hard on the land. By that I mean I rotate them to the land that the pigs will move onto next.. They (the chooks) pick through what they like, poop all over the place (this is a good thing) and then the hogs kind of till it all in behind them. I broadcast clover behind the hogs and my bees love that.. If you get a lot of bugs, the chickens really help to keep population down, which is good for your garden.. And free eggs aren't ever a bad thing to go with all that bacon.. If you give me some time I can get an areal view to kind of explain what I mean. I only have 18 acres and its almost a perfect square.. The net works for my chickens as well as the hogs, but its pricey, and you have to train your hogs to the fence. If we didnt have so many predators I would let them free range, but with the amount of land I give them, I dont think I restrict their movements much anyhow. They always have fresh grass and clover to pick through. I like your idea to turn the lawn into garden.. Lawns are a little over rated in my humble opinion.. You're lucky to have that creek. When we bought this place 20+ years ago, we had one as well, now we just have a pond in a deep spot where the creek bed bends.. Some wet years it flows pretty good.. But its been quite a few years since that has happened. We let the neighbor run cattle through the creek and it just wasn't wise on out part. If anything I would, if I were you, limit them to a small section of creek as far downstream as you can.. I know you said only a couple cows so that will make a big difference, we ran 20 head through ours about 1/2 mile for 5 months out of the year, and it really just turned the water to nothing you want to eat out of or dip your toes in. The mono-culture that goes on around here hasn't helped that. The ponds would be best utilized for the cattle/hogs in my opinion. The important part is to rotate wisely. If you leave your cattle or hogs on one section of land to long it can take a long time to heal.. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I built my own langstroth hives, and I am going to build a topbar in case any of my swarm traps work this spring as well. I couldn't give you much insight as to how much feedlot to dedicate for the cows and goats, I just dont have the experience there. Chickens/ducks are pretty easy, there is a lot of info on fodder for the winter on this site alone. I keep 5-7 acres of food plot for the pigs, I co-op with my neighbor, he has like 8 elevators and storage silos.. So I only am using maybe half of that and he does most of the work (networking with neighbors can be very beneficial for you and them).. In the summer they range feed mostly. I do give them all the eggs that are cracked (boiled) and will give them a small trough of mash mixed with warm water and yogurt and any table scraps. I finish them with pure grain/bean/alfalfa mixed with egg shell.. They always have access to dirt, which takes care of their Iron needs. Seems pretty complete for them.
As far as breeds of pig..
I run Large White's and American Landrace. If I had my Choice I would probably do Red Wattles as well as some Tamworth (heritage breeds).. These are all large breeds, The large white is a feed conversion dream pig. They get big fast, and they are amazing as far as temperament. My Miss Pigelsworth is damn near a teddy bear when she isnt farrowing!! The Landrace are big too and a bit more demanding (might just be mine though), but still as gentle as ever. American Guinea Hogs are popular, but I wouldnt let the size of the pigs discourage you, especially if you like bacon and ham. I would almost say larger pigs are easier depending on what type of fencing you go with. Even then I prefer large pigs. Hog net is a psychological barrier, you train them to respect it from a weener and they just dont fool with it.. Even when you take the fence down to move paddocks, they know where not to go. Boars on the other hand would probably chew threw anything to get to a gilt in heat.. lol.. Hog panels are pricey but effective, I use them in my permanent paddocks in the winter runs. If you have an escapee, you might as well lock it in the barn for a week, once they escape, they seem to be hell bent on finding new ways out. That having been said, they are not as smart as you. If one gets out, dont spend hours chasing it like most people do. Set up a trap and bait it with its favorite treat and wait.. Will you be butchering yourself? IF not, you will bringing the pigs to your local locker, then you need to design in a way to load your pigs onto a trailer. Oh yeah and you will need a livestock trailer or something along those lines.. Sounds like you get cold weather like I do. We often have -35 -50 wind chills, that makes watering and farrowing a challenge.. Plan for that.. The most economical way to raise pigs, in my opinion is to start with a breeding pair.. This will allow you treat them as pets and become comfortable raising them, when it comes time to farrow, you have bit more knowledge under your belt. You can expect between 6-12 in a litter and that's a lot of bacon for free. The old timers say you can get maybe 20-40 breeds in the lifespan of a pair. I havent been at it that long so I couldnt say for sure.. This isnt self sustaining in itself, as you would need at minimum 4 breeding pairs to avoid inbreeding.. But its a dang good start, and by raising more than what you need you leave yourself the option to sell weeners to offset feed costs should your feed crop not fair so well.. This happens some years, it pays to plan for that..
I look forward to following along on your journey. Remember to enjoy the experience. Sometimes it feels like climbing a sand cliff.. You keep pumping your feet and dont seem to get anywhere, but when you look behind you, you can see all the ground you have moved.. The first year will be down right discouraging if you let it be. Keep a good journal, leave out negative and personal things. Save seed receipts and packages, any feed receipts, supply receipts, make copies of all related records and literally glue them into your journal. Take lots of pictures, paste these in as well. When you are feeling like you just arent getting anywhere, look back through your journal.. It helps. You will be tied to your acreage and livestock unless you can arrange for friends or neighbors to come feed and care for them. This means no real vacations for some time.. This can wear on a person, make good friends, help people, go out of your way to do so... If you ever need someone to chat with, message me and I will get you my phone number and you can call any time.. Its all worth it, so please don't let my warnings scare you. There is no better feeling in the world than sitting down with your family for a meal after your first harvest from food you have grown on your own land.. You feel free, like a man should. Kudos to you for using pallets. If I didnt have my own mill and a lot of lumber this would be my next choice.

Hi Damian,

Great parcel of land, tremendous potential. Advanced Farm & Homestead Design / is a workshop coming up in May in Iowa (close to you). As an IT mind, I think you'd appreciate a systematic approach to creating the homestead that meets you and your family's true goals.

Damian Jones wrote:What's wrong with this plan, what's dumb. I'm looking for a good critique.

Thanks,
Damian

Damian, It is great that you are interested in developing your property using a permaculture design! Since you asked for a critique I will give you my take. I don't want to discourage you in any way, but you asked our criticism. perhaps not all of my input will apply to you, but I offer general advice for others that might read this thread at a later date.

Your excitement to get things moving in the spring could lead to some costly mistakes. You likely lack the knowledge required to plan and implement something that you will be happy with in the long run. Observation of the property is key to making a good design. Start slowly this year and gain an understanding of the property in all 4 seasons. Meanwhile you can learn more about rotational grazing, resilient design, soil building, animal husbandry, etc. If you have not already bought books, I would suggest dropping $300 before you commit to more expensive items such as: aquaponics systems, larger animals, trees, equipment. Somewhere on these forums there is a great list of suggested reading material. The information contained within the top 5 permaculture books should provide a great base to start from.

Make a plan. Ask better questions and clearly define your goals for the land. The more specific you can be, the better. It is impossible to implement a good plan without a desired outcome in mind. how many people do you want to feed or what % of your diet do you want to produce? how much income (if any) needs to be generated to cover expenses and taxes? how much working capital are you willing to commit in the first year, and do you expect a return? if you do plan on making it profitable in the first year, what items would you need to produce to make that happen? Would your plans work if you or your family had to leave for some reason such as vacation, illness, or emergency? what is your soil like? have you tested it? do you need to amend it before you plant long term perennial crops like trees and shrubs? Would it be better to dredge and stock your ponds or buy aquaponics systems and heat the water through the winter? which of these (or other) options is most profitable in the first year: crops, hay, leasing the pasture, animal husbandry? are your goals realistic?

My suggestion is to start small. raise a few dozen chickens for a year to see if you like caring for animals. they are easy and cheap. buy a few 20# bags of black oil sunflower seeds (non heat treated variety sold as bird seed) and sow a patch for chicken feed. raise smaller plots of grain for feed and invest most of your energy preparing the garden near the house this spring. plant a few trees and shrubs, but hold off on planting a lot of trees until you can prepare the land correctly and understand your local conditions. get your soil tested! compost shredded leaves and work on building a heavily mulched (6-18") soil in the home garden area. Learn about your land. Observe the stream and see how high it floods during heavy rains. As a part time farmer you won't have the time to tackle a serious workload. Enjoy the fact that you currently have outside employment(where you can do research, plot, and scheme on the clock) and save as much money as you can.

My goal is to eventually get the the langstroth...once my woodworking skills improve a bit. For now I'm leaning heavily towards the perone hive as my first concern is to make sure I have address the pollination of the plants. I would like the smaller size pigs this first year to get accustom to raising animals. At the moment I only have to worry about feeding 3 people and pets. I do intend on marketing what ever is left to a couple of shops I've already lined up to see if there is an interest and build from there.

I will continue to post and promote this site to my friends. It is a great resource and the more people participating the better.

Thank you Kevin,

~Damian

Kevin Hedrick wrote: I built my own langstroth hives, and I am going to build a topbar in case any of my swarm traps work this spring as well. I couldn't give you much insight as to how much feedlot to dedicate for the cows and goats, I just dont have the experience there. Chickens/ducks are pretty easy, there is a lot of info on fodder for the winter on this site alone. I keep 5-7 acres of food plot for the pigs, I co-op with my neighbor, he has like 8 elevators and storage silos.. So I only am using maybe half of that and he does most of the work (networking with neighbors can be very beneficial for you and them).. In the summer they range feed mostly. I do give them all the eggs that are cracked (boiled) and will give them a small trough of mash mixed with warm water and yogurt and any table scraps. I finish them with pure grain/bean/alfalfa mixed with egg shell.. They always have access to dirt, which takes care of their Iron needs. Seems pretty complete for them.

Grant Schultz wrote:Hi Damian,

Great parcel of land, tremendous potential. Advanced Farm & Homestead Design / is a workshop coming up in May in Iowa (close to you). As an IT mind, I think you'd appreciate a systematic approach to creating the homestead that meets you and your family's true goals.

I would love to go, but the price is way outside of my budget. Why is priced in such a way only the well to do could be a part of it? To me the underlying tone of permaculture is the inclusion of people to learn to farm in a sustainable way. I see the slow transition to a capitali$tic process where everything must be purchased..supply and demand. I would rather spend the money on more seed and livestock.
The land in Iowa is not my land, the climate is not my climate so what works there doesn't mean that it would work here. I would ask questions about my land and climate there as I do hear. I would rather host a free course and the attendees donate what they feel is prudent for the advisers. Everyone would get free meals and exchange I would get tons of help in making my land sustainable. In turn I would travel to another property, set up a tent and be fed for the exchange of my hard labor and my philosophy of the land and/or life. THAT is what brought me to permaculture...the symbiosis.

While I do appreciate the invitation, it is just against what I believe permaculture to be.


~Damian

Hi Ben,
Great questions..and a lot information to think about. I will work on a more detailed plan to outline the measures you have described and somethings that have been floating around in my head.

~Damian

Ben Bowman wrote:
Your excitement to get things moving in the spring could lead to some costly mistakes. You likely lack the knowledge required to plan and implement something that you will be happy with in the long run. Observation of the property is key to making a good design. Start slowly this year and gain an understanding of the property in all 4 seasons. Meanwhile you can learn more about rotational grazing, resilient design, soil building, animal husbandry, etc. If you have not already bought books, I would suggest dropping $300 before you commit to more expensive items such as: aquaponics systems, larger animals, trees, equipment. Somewhere on these forums there is a great list of suggested reading material. The information contained within the top 5 permaculture books should provide a great base to start from.

Make a plan. Ask better questions and clearly define your goals for the land. The more specific you can be, the better. It is impossible to implement a good plan without a desired outcome in mind. how many people do you want to feed or what % of your diet do you want to produce? how much income (if any) needs to be generated to cover expenses and taxes? how much working capital are you willing to commit in the first year, and do you expect a return? if you do plan on making it profitable in the first year, what items would you need to produce to make that happen? Would your plans work if you or your family had to leave for some reason such as vacation, illness, or emergency? what is your soil like? have you tested it? do you need to amend it before you plant long term perennial crops like trees and shrubs? Would it be better to dredge and stock your ponds or buy aquaponics systems and heat the water through the winter? which of these (or other) options is most profitable in the first year: crops, hay, leasing the pasture, animal husbandry? are your goals realistic?

My suggestion is to start small. raise a few dozen chickens for a year to see if you like caring for animals. they are easy and cheap. buy a few 20# bags of black oil sunflower seeds (non heat treated variety sold as bird seed) and sow a patch for chicken feed. raise smaller plots of grain for feed and invest most of your energy preparing the garden near the house this spring. plant a few trees and shrubs, but hold off on planting a lot of trees until you can prepare the land correctly and understand your local conditions. get your soil tested! compost shredded leaves and work on building a heavily mulched (6-18") soil in the home garden area. Learn about your land. Observe the stream and see how high it floods during heavy rains. As a part time farmer you won't have the time to tackle a serious workload. Enjoy the fact that you currently have outside employment(where you can do research, plot, and scheme on the clock) and save as much money as you can.

Damian,

Your design ideas are good. One thing that does speak to me is the size of the yard. It's location is almost too far for a garden. Also start small or a garden that large, especially without a tractor, will become absolutely soul wrenching. Fence it off temporarily and run stock until you are able to grow your plot or plant something perennial. (Food forest maybe?)

I have found that the gardens inside zone 1 really do make a lot of sense, even if it's not the "best" location at your disposal. Aerial maps only show so much of course.

Thanks for the sound advice. The garden is just passed the driveway, no other choice there. Now much room nearer the house. Once we get things going we plan on dong a food forest to the south and west of area 'A' mostly to keep animals out of the barley and gardens...well that's the plan

Nicholas Covey wrote:Damian,

Your design ideas are good. One thing that does speak to me is the size of the yard. It's location is almost too far for a garden. Also start small or a garden that large, especially without a tractor, will become absolutely soul wrenching. Fence it off temporarily and run stock until you are able to grow your plot or plant something perennial. (Food forest maybe?)

I have found that the gardens inside zone 1 really do make a lot of sense, even if it's not the "best" location at your disposal. Aerial maps only show so much of course.