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Joseph Azzara
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I have just seen several of these on line and I have some questions/comments...

How do you keep the CO from exiting the flue pipe before entering the chimney?
Why do you use such thin gauge pipe and not the pipe intended for wood burning equipment?
There is supposed to be an air gap between the flue pipe and the dirt, cob and what not.
Does the flue gases not condense and turn acidic which in turn will eat out the galvanized pipes being used?
Is creosote not an issue with this set up?


More to come later I suppose. Back to work I go.

Thanks!
 
allen lumley
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Joeseph Azzara : Welcome to Permies.com, our Sister Site richsoil.com, And a Big Welcome to the Rocket and Wood Stoves Forums !

With Over 100,000 rocket mass heaters RMHs, Built World Wide, it is in no way a cop-out to say that Much of what you are concerned about will Not
happen in a Well built Rocket, The minimum operating temperatures of your future RMH is approximately 1000dF, well above the ignition temperature
of Creosote and Carbon Monoxide, Time temperature and turbulence create the near perfect Air Fuel mix, and allow the freaky high Temperatures and
efficiencies of our RMH, With complete combustion we see only Carbon Dioxide, Water Vapor, and Fly Ash !

We have all experienced the Stinging Smoke in the Eyes of campfires, This is mostly Wood Alcohol and vaporized Wood Vinegar, and are smoky signs
of incomplete combustion ! While it is part of the outdoor fire experience it is virtually unknown in RMHs working at their design Temps !

Air is a much better insulator than it is a good way to transfer heat, think Down Jacket! We want our Cob to completely encase the Horizontal ductwork! By
conforming to the shape of the ductwork it recreates the great structural strength of Circles and Arches !( and is an excellent heat transfer medium !)

After we have our ductwork well coated, that is time enough for the heavier and denser Materials that are so effective in hold ing the heat of out Thermal
Mass Bench !

We consider all metal within the Core of the Rocket Burner to be only sacrificial materials to be used as forms to make up the parts of the Rocket, as
such knowing The short life expectancy of these materials exposed to the working temps of our RMH, It actually makes more sense to go with as cheap a
material as possible, This includes the use of 2nd hand Lite ductwork or large diameter (6'' - 8'' )Cardboard Tubes !

I certainly recommend the purchase and knowledgeable use of all 3- Heat, Smoke, and Carbon Monoxide Detectors, As we ask all potential Rocketeers to
build their 1st RMH out of doors to learn how to run THEIR rocket, by the time you are ready to move it indoors, you should have taught yourself the safe
operation of Your Rocket, Basically after that it will come down to training the other members of your household ! For the Good of The Craft !

Think like Fire! Flow like Gas! Don't be the Marshmallow ! As always, your comments And Questions are solicited and Welcome ! PYRO - Logically Big AL !
 
Jay Kepple
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Location: Dubuque, ia
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will the pipes rust away and the cob become the pipe in the mass? Jay
 
allen lumley
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Jay : The Horizontal piping within the Cob Thermal Mass will last a long time, but it will be the Cob Thermal Mass that seals and transports the Heat Energy, this is one
of the very best places to go cheap !! For the Good of the Crafts ! Bg AL ~
 
Joseph Azzara
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allen lumley wrote:Joeseph Azzara : Welcome to Permies.com, our Sister Site richsoil.com, And a Big Welcome to the Rocket and Wood Stoves Forums ! Thanks!

With Over 100,000 Rocket Mass Heaters RMHs, Built World Wide, it is in no way a cop-out to say that Much of what you are concerned about will Not
happen in a Well built Rocket
I am sorry, nut that is not an answer...it is nice to know that they have not made the big news in a negative way., The minimum operating temperatures of your future RMH is approximately 1000dF, well above the ignition temperature of Creosote and Carbon Monoxide, Does this mean that creosote is not left in the flues? Time temperature and turbulence create the near perfect Air Fuel mix, and allow the freaky high Temperatures and efficiencies of our RMH, With complete combustion we see only Carbon Dioxide, Water Vapor, and Fly Ash ! If you see water vapor then the flue is dropping below 140 F, so it may be creating nitric and sulfurous acids which are the likely culprits of flue degredation.

We have all experienced the Stinging Smoke in the Eyes of campfires, This is mostly Wood Alcohol and vaporized Wood Vinegar, and are smoky signs
of incomplete combustion ! While it is part of the outdoor fire experience it is virtually unknown in RMHs working at their design Temps !

Air is a much better insulator than it is a good way to transfer heat, think Down Jacket! We want our Cob to completely encase the Horizontal ductwork! By
conforming to the shape of the ductwork it recreates the great structural strength of Circles and Arches !( and is an excellent heat transfer medium !)

After we have our ductwork well coated, that is time enough for the heavier and denser Materials that are so effective in hold ing the heat of out Thermal
Mass Bench !

We consider all metal within the Core of the Rocket Burner to be only sacrificial materials to be used as forms to make up the parts of the Rocket, as
such knowing The short life expectancy of these materials exposed to the working temps of our RMH, It actually makes more sense to go with as cheap a
material as possible,
If cob is similar to clay that is used in chimneys, then I can see where you are going with this thought however, clay is not meant to hold up with condensation. This includes the use of 2nd hand Lite ductwork or large diameter (6'' - 8'' )Cardboard Tubes ! Why not go with the more expensive parts that are meant for the task at hand? They will hold up longer and would, when used within manufacturer's guidelines, be safer.

I certainly recommend the purchase and knowledgeable use of all 3- Heat, Smoke, and Carbon Monoxide Detectors Right on!, As we ask all potential Rocketeers to
build their 1st RMH out of doors to learn how to run THEIR rocket, by the time you are ready to move it indoors, you should have taught yourself the safe
operation of Your Rocket, Basically after that it will come down to training the other members of your household ! For the Good of The Craft !

Think like Fire! Flow like Gas! Don't be the Marshmallow ! As always, your comments And Questions are solicited and Welcome ! PYRO - Logically Big AL !


I hope this did not come across any other way than curious and my attempts to maybe help bring some possible awareness to some potential hazards. If I am wrong, I am open to discussion but I would like more than there are many out there and we have not heard of anyone dying as of yet. No offense but that seems like a dangerous way to look at things, no?

Thanks.
 
allen lumley
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Joseph Azzara : 100,000 + Rockets Mass Heaters Simply means we have Done the testing to be able to Produce a Non-Fossil Fuel Fired Furnace With a Mass
Heater that Costs Thousands less, and can only be Directly Compared to Russian/Scandinavian Masonry stoves costing 10s ofThousands of Dollars More to
Build and install !

I am much too old to try to lull anyone with absolutes, however, it requires not just operator error, but a mindset of Criminal Carelessness to operate a RMH
in a manner that will Allow the Rocket to make Creosote ! Mostly by trying to burn Wet wood and overcrowding the Feed tube ! The act of Crafting your own
rocket mass heater will Teach you the necessary skill sets to understand what safe operation is. Within reason the RMH at Operating Temperatures can not
be operated to produce Creosote or more CO than grilling a steak !

These units have been extensively tested, and again we are very definitely coming in with lower emissions than other More Commercial units ! At around
1400dF we start to see some production of Oxides of Nitrogen, but we have zero needs in the Home heating environment to create these conditions. There
are several good articles on High Temperature Hydrogen Attack and How it can quickly destroy many Grades of High Carbon Steel, to include Stainless Steel!

Cob as generally Used in Construction of part of the Rocket Burner Base, and Most of the Thermal mass bench is ~30%~ clay, and we find that it handles all
of the water produced, Absorbing some of the Water vapor into the mass and Even additional Water vapor out of the Living Space air when the Humidity is
high and releasing it later when the humidity is lower !

At the Top of this page, below the Permies Banner and above the Permies '' Video of the week '' is the Permies Toolbox, Clicking on "Search'' from the Rocket
Stoves Forums Will allow you to enter in a specific topic in the 'Search Field' allowing you to do a search of the !0s of thousands of threads and Thread Extensions
on this topic! This is one of your' privileges of membership' Available 24 / 7 For the Good of the Craft ! Big AL !
 
Tim Dunlap
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I was wondering if anyone has used flu line for exhaust instead of pipe?
 
allen lumley
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Location: Northern New York Zone4-5 the OUTER 'RONDACs percip 36''
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Tim Dunlap : The main Requirement for all of the Horizontal piping and for the Final Vertical Pipe is smooth walls, sweeping curves and unrestricted Transition points!

Your question hints that you are ready to goto> rocketstoves.com to Download a PDF Copy $18, of the Brand New Third Addition of Ianto Evans' Great Book
'' Rocket Mass Heaters '', with ~100,000 ~ Rocket Mass Heaters RMHs, built worldwide Most have been made following 'The Book' and 95% of all the 1st time
Rockets (that Worked ) were made following "The Book".

I find the Book easy to follow, there is a minimum of new words and phrases to learn, assuring that when you come back here to talk with your Fellow Members
you are using the same words to describe the same part/section and its shape, size, and orientation to the other parts/sections. You will have to understand the Ratio
of Depth of Feed tube to Length of Burn Tunnel to Height of the Heat Riser(and Barrel)!

You will also need to understand the Need to keep a Constant Cross Sectional Area though out your build, based on YOUR Heat Energy Needs and Scaled to the inside
dimensions of your Burn Tunnel, Needing no more than 4th-5th grade math !

Truthfully there is not much of a learning curve until you start constructing the 1st one out doors in your back yard, and then you are your own best Teacher though
you will always be able to come here with any questions, or observations !

Think of it as an investment, saving you time money and Frustration,especially because you understand the comments of your only slightly advanced Fellow Members!
( Full disclosure, I do not make a nickel Touting the rocket mass heater Book ! ) For the Good of the Craft ! Big AL !
 
Mikael Long
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In answering questions.Even pointed ones. Big Al you are a saint and a scholar. You answer questions and provide incredible amounts of life saving info and set the record straight with the grace of a artist who paints a beautiful picture. Thank you for your time and all you have made and are a part of here.

Mikael
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://richsoil.com/wood-heat.jsp
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