poll to make a land grab

The land right next door to the laboratory is for sale. The odd thing about this land is that there are only two pieces of land up this valley. The lab and this one. And the two are almost fully surrounded by forest service land. I like to think of how I can grow stuff without getting GMO stuff in my seeds, and how my bees can get plenty of forage without wandering into stuff with pesticides and and other icky things.

Yesterday we met some folks that might buy the land. And .... we decided we had better do something quick to try to buy it ourselves.

Every dollar is currently tied up in projects. And then came "if a bunch of people bought the deep roots stuff we could probably afford it."

Hmmmm .... I need a good devious plot ....

Think, think, think .... Ooooooo! Necessity is the mother of invention!

So we currently have deep roots where a person can slap down $20,000 and get an acre. But, of course, every person selects the bestest piece of the land. So far, seven acres are marked out for deep roots.

Recently, Jocelyn and I recorded a podcast where I made it clear that the best seeds to plant are "permaculturalists" (or "permies"). And, further, during the earthworks workshop I was asked "what do you want to do with the land where we are eating lunch?" and I explained about how I want each acre to have a different permie showing off their artistic vision in seed and soil.

Further, the long term plan is for the land to be divided into four sections. Each section would be ten times better than the last. I have now defined the first section (Oehla).

So here is what I propose:

1 acre deep roots $20,000
1 acre shallow roots (3 years) $3000 (works out to $83 per month)
1 acre Oehla/basecamp deep roots $10,000
1 acre Oehla/basecamp shallow roots (3 years) $1500 (works out to $41 per month)

So now let's see how much interest there is. If there is enough interest in the next 24 hours or so, I'll scramble to make this an actual thing. For the next four posts, give a thumbs up for the post that best represents your interest. But only give a thumbs up if you are serious about parting with actual money in the next week or two for this.

Give a thumbs up to this post if you would buy 1 acre deep roots $20,000

Give a thumbs up to this post if you would buy 1 acre shallow roots (3 years) $3000

Give a thumbs up to this post if you would buy 1 acre Oehla/basecamp deep roots $10,000

Give a thumbs up to this post if you would buy 1 acre Oehla/basecamp shallow roots (3 years) $1500

Give a thumbs up to this post if you just like the idea of giving a thumbs up to a post

I'm not understanding the differences between the offerings. So let me ask a few questions. Are you suggesting to buy this property, and are 'subdividing' the property to 'investors' upfront? Or is this some kind of sponsor/lease thing? What do you mean by "deep roots" and "shallow roots"? Can you post a link to the google earth photos? I might be interested even if it's just a lease or sponsor thing, particularly if it came with rights similar to a hunting lease. (not that I hunt, but hunting leases make great private campgrounds and other uses)

paul wheaton wrote:...buy 1 acre Oehla/basecamp shallow roots (3 years) $1500

This doesn't makes sense to me. Is it an actual purchase or a 3 year lease?

So, this is the land that is in-between base camp and the laboratory? That would be really cool, to make it contiguous, if that's what you're saying. This should happen!

I wish Montana wasn't so far from Portland!

Or, I wish there was a small plane that didn't destroy the environment, and a flat piece of land on your property, so we could fly there!

Alas.

I think it's a great idea, but I don't have the money to do it. On the other hand, I could donate $50 to the cause. I know it is not much, but it is more than you otherwise would have. So, if you need it toward buying the land, let me know.

I thought I made a link to deep roots, but apparently I didn't! Here ya go: https://permies.com/t/24680/labs/deep-roots-long-term-canvas

Does this answer all the questions?

Lenn Sisson wrote:I think it's a great idea, but I don't have the money to do it. On the other hand, I could donate $50 to the cause. I know it is not much, but it is more than you otherwise would have. So, if you need it toward buying the land, let me know.

In a month or so we might do another kickstarter - and that would be good then!

Cool, thanks Paul! Good luck with the property.

Oh I hope you can find folks to help buy it! Maybe someone awesome could buy the other property outright. Good neighbors are really important.

paul wheaton wrote:Each section would be ten times better than the last. I have now defined the first section (Oehla).

So here is what I propose:

1 acre deep roots $20,000
1 acre shallow roots (3 years) $3000 (works out to $83 per month)
1 acre Oehla/basecamp deep roots $10,000
1 acre Oehla/basecamp shallow roots (3 years) $1500 (works out to $41 per month)

Could you elaborate a bit on why the second section will be better and therefore worth more?

So 'deep roots' is the lifetime lease for all in permies, and 'shallow roots' is a three year trial lease for those who are less invested into this kind of lifestyle. Land leases aren't uncommon, but presume that "improvements" belong to the improver, not the leasor. Of course, if the improvements occur as a direct result of permie classes, and not at the expense of the leasee, it makes sense that such improvements would not constitute equity. This sounds like an intentional community, and I have some experience with intentional communities. Most of it bad.

This does sound like an interesting idea, and I wish you well, but for myself and my family; I think that we will have to pass. More due to the distance of such a second home for us than anything. Then again, it might still make a fine bug out destination. Where is the nearest nuclear power plant to you, Paul? Nearest military base and/or strategic target? I love Kentucky; which is a lovely land full of trees (due, in part, to the high water table; I can't do wofati here, I checked.) but it's also home to Fort Knox, which is about 50 miles from my 13 acres; and a major rail transport line is less than mile away. (I live just outside of the city limits of Lagrange, Kentucky; which has a railroad line that runs right down main street, believe it or not. It's actually quite a sight, so long as everything continues to go well, but there are hazardous materials tanks that roll past the town hall 20 times every day, at 10 miles per hour.)

Jason Sergeant wrote:
Could you elaborate a bit on why the second section will be better and therefore worth more?

Pick a spot from the whole land, or be limited to the first section or basecamp.

Creighton Samuiels wrote:So 'deep roots' is the lifetime lease for all in permies, and 'shallow roots' is a three year trial lease for those who are less invested into this kind of lifestyle.

Nope and nope. No lease.

paul wheaton wrote:

Creighton Samuiels wrote:So 'deep roots' is the lifetime lease for all in permies, and 'shallow roots' is a three year trial lease for those who are less invested into this kind of lifestyle.

Nope and nope. No lease.

Then I'm really not understanding.

i wish i had money to come out right this moment! i dont have the money but i would poke everyone who has money to go for it and give my poor moneyless thumbs up. this would be a terrific thing for the lab i believe!


Creighton, if you havent been following the idea of how the lab is run than thats probably what youre missing. paul is permie-god of the lab and reserves the right to remove trouble even in the form of people. so its like you either are in the paul-wheaton-world-domination boat or you arent and you wouldnt live under his tyranny so you wouldnt really be interested in living at the lab.
paul feel free to correct me if i am wrong about any of this! (:

Paul can you tell us how much land is in the parcel for sale and what the total asking price is?
There might be a permie out there who has the money to buy the whole thing and would be a better neighbor than those who are looking now?

Land, Wofati, community..... I am totally fantasizing about Hobbit houses in a Shire. However, I will wait to see what you put up through Kickstarter. Fact is, I just joined not too long ago and have not listened to 90% of podcasts. Good luck nonetheless. I hope you get the land.

The nature of the project is in line with the intention of the Farmland Fund. The available balance is low right now, $1020 to work with.
I could arrange a loan. How does 0% interest sound?

Creighton Samuiels wrote:

paul wheaton wrote:

Creighton Samuiels wrote:So 'deep roots' is the lifetime lease for all in permies, and 'shallow roots' is a three year trial lease for those who are less invested into this kind of lifestyle.

Nope and nope. No lease.

Then I'm really not understanding.

Creighton, follow this link that Paul mentioned above, it mostly explains what is going on.

Paul, assuming both parties are happy with the arrangement at Wheaton Labs, is there an option to extend a shallow roots rental to deep roots at or near the current scale? Or would extension of an Oehla require the full 10k? Or will extension not be available in 3 years?

Is there a rental return schedule on three years if a permie doesn't make it on the farm that long?

These questions aren't so much for me; I can barely keep my city lot together much less run an acre in a climate I'm not familiar with. They're just questions that I thought I'd be asking if I was ready to make such a decision.

Miles,

Having a permie neighbor would be a great solution. They are asking for about $150,000 for about 100 acres.

1 acre Oehla/basecamp shallow roots (3 years) $1500 (works out to $41 per month)

Does the 3 years start upon payment ?

Charles Tarnard wrote:
Paul, assuming both parties are happy with the arrangement at Wheaton Labs, is there an option to extend a shallow roots rental to deep roots at or near the current scale? Or would extension of an Oehla require the full 10k? Or will extension not be available in 3 years?

Maybe. Probably. I guess that is sorta the function of this poll: should I bother hammering out these sorts of details?

Is there a rental return schedule on three years if a permie doesn't make it on the farm that long?

There would be.

Jessie Anderson wrote:1 acre Oehla/basecamp shallow roots (3 years) $1500 (works out to $41 per month)

Does the 3 years start upon payment ?

My guess is that people would pay now and then it would start when they arrive (the current mission is to see if we can pull off the land grab). I would, however, think that the three years would probably start within a year.

I also think that the prices for all of this stuff will go up in time. Especially as more and more infrastructure exists.

Some Q's from my email:

Is the existing land mortgage free?

Yes.

If I start with shallow roots is there an upgrade path?

Probably.

Paul,
Do you have a timeline on this? How urgent is it?

Wow that is some super affordable land! Good luck!!!

Stephen Molnar wrote:Paul,
Do you have a timeline on this? How urgent is it?

The property is for sale now. Publicly listed. Potential buyers are looking at it. And now I am nervous that somebody might buy it that would be problematic to the extreme.

Tonight I will add up the thumbs ups and see if we can make this leap. I also have people contacting me privately saying that they will also put money in. I've talked to one person that has listened to all the podcasts that might buy it outright - but that one person is a little short from the total.

I like the idea of putting in an offer within 48 hours.

Hi,
Is there an address so that I can search for its listing? Buying it outright is a possibility. The person who has listened to all the podcasts and wants to buy it seems a great resolution. I haven't listened to 1% (My excuse: I'm new).

I've been lurking around the edges of the forums and always liked what I've seen. I have sort of an itch to invest a little nest egg and only one real question which I haven't been able to find in my scrambling around to catch up on some of the recent activity. (This is not the question: How do you all have so much time to invest in all this online activity?!) La Pregunta: Where the heck is the land? I picture it being west of Missoula down I90 corridor maybe past Alberton? Bicycling distance? On Plum Creek land? Just speculating since I'm underinformed. I have a great latent interest in all aspects of permaculture but very few concrete opinions if any. I'll gladly invest some serious time catching up on podcasts etc as soon as I can. Consider me as a potential longterm (aka deeproots) minion/apprentice who is quite handy with a shovel and learns adaptively.

Jackie Kim wrote:Hi,
Is there an address so that I can search for its listing? Buying it outright is a possibility. The person who has listened to all the podcasts and wants to buy it seems a great resolution. I haven't listened to 1% (My excuse: I'm new).

There is not an address. This is raw land.

Doug Itup wrote: Where the heck is the land? Bicycling distance?

We are less than an hour from missoula (by car). So less than a day by bike.

Paul, is there a Multiple Listing Service number for this property that you might know of?

I think I understand what "deep roots" means, but I still don't understand what "shallow roots" means in this context.

There seems to be undue confusion here. As I understand it, although Paul has used the word 'buy', Paul is merely 'renting' portions of his property. The difference is he gets the money up front instead of monthly. 'Deep roots' for $20k is a 'forever' rental (as long as both parties agree), while 'shallow roots' is a rental for a lessor amount and a shorter duration. I project that shallow root parties would likely be extended so long as they are in good standing.

I sure hope this works out as a win/win for everyone involved and Paul doesn't turn into a Ogre !
I can't wait to hear what happens when someone breaks out the Miracle Grow!!! LOL

Creighton Samuiels wrote:Paul, is there a Multiple Listing Service number for this property that you might know of?

I think I understand what "deep roots" means, but I still don't understand what "shallow roots" means in this context.

I was trying to help answer the same question but you did a much better job Michael, many thanks.

Also, I found reading through this thread helped me understand this differences between the four planned sections of the land and why one section would be considered better than another.