Your wildest plant breeding aspirations?

This may be slightly off topic, hope not. How about oak trees whose leafs after they fall dissolve when wet releasing their nutrients into the soil. You could collect them, mulch them in your gardens, and when wet they're gone.

I'm currently trying to cross pollinate Maypop "Passiflora Incarnata" with "Passiflora Edulis" to create a larger maypop with better flavor

There is a yellow fleshed moon and stars.

I noticed the original post wanting to cross Moon and stars with another Melon. The yellow one may be a better base for that.


Yamato Silver is on a list of watermelons that I wanna grow.  It's said to taste pretty good. Oh yeah, I also hate red watermelons just as others do.

Art Combe's Ancient is also on a list of watermelons that I wanna grow. Just for the bottle or handle shape that it can form. Plus red seeds. I've heard it has a tough outer skin too.


Kaho is supposed to taste pretty good, but that could taste awful to me. Dunno.




Now. There's a watermelon called Royal Golden.

It's rind is yellow when ripe. This is very cool.

Wanna know what isn't cool? It's yellow leaves which are on plants, probably grown commercially. Yellow leaves, tend to weaken plants.


Honor Bright tomato, also has a yellow leaf gene that causes changes in some of the fruits appearance and the flowers are rather pale.



So. That's a pretty big issue.


But. I've discovered that there's a yellow rind watermelon, without yellow foliage. Most varieties I've found, are crosses of Royal Golden - or they're related to it.


This is called the Lemon Drop watermelon. It also has yellow flesh on the inside.

I'm unsure if it ripens to yellow or if it goes from green to yellow immediately.


I'd also like to cross Royal Golden and Lemon Drop, just to see what happens. I'd assume their yellow rinds are caused by different traits.



I'd also like to grow Moon And Stars Yellow. Not to mention Wilson's Sweet watermelon.

Wilson's Sweet, has the usual green rind with lines across it, but it also has a unique spotting over it's rind.


I'd try crossing it with Moon and Stars, and seeing if I can get both their rind traits stabilized - I'm hoping that they'd both be able to show up.

Honestly, I may go with the standard Moon and Stars - I'd probably cross these into Art Combe's Watermelon too.


There's also a type of watermelon which has a splotched seed I think?


These would be further down the road, sort of crosses.



There are also Watermelon relatives. Close relatives.

Golden Midget also has some yellow leaves.

But, they aren't as yellow leaved as Royal Golden - not every leaf is yellow.


I haven't seen reports of yellow splotches ot huge leaf things on Lemon Drop watermelon.

I've been working on a corn project I call Wolverine corn, previously squirrel corn. The goal is a cool- hardy, semi-drought tolerant, long season, high grain production, very dark brown flint corn. I guess it's not too wild. I want a good 12 foot+ tall stalk so there's a lot for my pig bedding or composting. It has to be high production, tall stalked, not be susceptible to common molds, and high protein (used a mix of high protein flint corn for the base). The goal is a super homestead crop. High protein and a lot of useable stalk. The solid, dark brown color is just because I think it's neat.

I've been considering growing some stuff.


I live in Zone 8b now.


Asimina is a very interesting genus.


And living in Zone 8B opens up breeding options.


Asimina triloba is probably the most well known Pawpaw species.


There are also Pawpaws endemic to small areas in Florida.


There's also other Pawpaws, sure.



Now, why would I want to breed with small fruited species?


Well, some species have large flowers for one.



Another thing? I'm living in Zone 8B. Warmer areas, aren't as suitable for Pawpaws due to chill requirements. I'm probably pushing it on the chill hours here.

But then there's the Florida species, that are seen as growable only in zones 8 or higher.


And, many of these species are pollinated by wasps and butterflies. Asimina triloba is more or less only pollinated by beetles, if I remember correctly. And they don't smell too lovely.


Some species grow in partial shade or full sun.

Some are small shrubs.


Some handle drought pretty well, and grow on rocky soil.



Not all plant breeders focus on things other than disease resistances or flavor.



I happen to know that a lot of people may be more open to growing Pawpaws with flowers that smell nicer, and feed butterflies.


I for one think that having beetles to pollinate flowers is beneficial, as some years may have lower bee populations or other issues.

Plus I have a plan to grow Ficus species that are pollinated by beetles, next to Asimina triloba - not all figs are hardy where Pawpaws are usually grown.

Beetles would more than likely learn that there's even more food next to their other food - these would also have rotting scents / odors to them.


Anyways, bit off topic but I will say that there's reasonings as to why I wouldn't wanna change up the flowering stuff too much.

Triloba flowers remind me of some Asarum species to an extent, dunno if there's a special formula there for attracting some insects.


With Asarum caudatum and canadense, the flowers are the same reddish / burgundy as Asimina triloba, and they give off a rotting sort of odor. The flowers supposedly resemble the color of rotting flesh.

So. There's that. I'd probably grow some Asarum plants next to the base of Pawpaws, as a fun experiment or test.




But wait, there's more!


I'm in Zone 8B. This means I can technically grow Cherimoya - Annona cherimola.


A lot of places say it'll only grow in Zone 10 - 11, but may not have proper chill periods in Zone 11.


It'll actually grow in Zone 8, but substain frost damage sometimes.

It's well suited for Zone 9 - 10.


Annona species don't seem to all have chill periods. Cherimoya does, and there's hybrids out there with other species. They seem to readily hybridize with other species.



Now, there's an issue in California with growing Cherimoya.


It's more than likely pollinated by a small beetle, not found in California.


If only there happened to be a native species in the Annonaceae, native to North America that happened to be pollinated by small beetles and could be baited into pollinating nearby Cherimoya trees for one or two years, just long enough for the beetles to realize they can visit those top.


Oh, wait! Yeah.


I know of people in California who grow Pawpaws - not a ton of people do so. It actually does well in some areas.

I also know people in California who grow Cherimoya.


I don't know many people who grow Cherimoya and Pawpaws, side by side. The usual reasoning seems to be that one fruit takes longer to spoil, and doesn't thrive - plus the taste varies too much, even in varieties. The other has larger fruits and can be sold in markets.


Fair enough.


Cherimoya and Asimina crosses have been attempted.


They tend to fail. These are usually people shipping pollen back and forth, or from a greenhouse to outdoors.


Annona hybrids and Asimina hybrids, may be more compatible.


I'm quite interested in another genus since a researcher friend somewhere, told me something about funding (friends sometimes ask me for ideas or opinions on things, so I have a weird circle of friends who like weird plants).


Duguetia.


In the Annonaceae. My friend told me that Duguetia was very compatible with Asimina and Annona species.

I didn't get much information in terms of in what direction. The friend pretty much said they were approved for talking about this, as it didn't go anywhere.

But, it was simple donations of pollen.


They lost approval from funders of their research and moved onto different things, because they told people how long it would take to commercialize and breed things.

Appears they didn't like the answer.


I didn't get any Duguetia names for the exact species, I was told that it didn't seem to matter.


Meiogyne cylindrocarpa and Uvaria littoralis also exist. I was told "dunno" when I asked about these. Which I guess he did pretty much say they only worked with some Genera.


But, if I'm growing some Duguetia in pots for fruits and flowers. Yes, I'm going to grow other species in the Annonaceae.


Unfortunately, finding any public information on this isn't doable.


Unless you paid for access or know someone who's 100% allowed to say whatever.




Duguetia was seen as a possible bridge species in these cases as well - that's my main point here.


They brought up how there could be incompatibilities if they try first generation crosses crossed into another species - maybe the same barriers that the parents had. Or they said that Duguetia has some unpleasant traits, and that breeding F1s together would mean that they'd probably end up with something very similar to a Duguetia.

It also probably wouldn't be frost hardy.

Their goal would've been a frost hardy Annona.


Breeding takes time. Their bosses and whoever knew that. But, their assumed or projected periods for when they'd have something marketable. It wasn't something that people liked to see or hear.


They'd need trials in different areas that get frost.

It's likely that a lot of people wouldn't buy the fruits.

They'd be pricey due to the years of work that went into them.

People may try saving seeds for them.

The fruit would need to last long and taste good.

People would probably look at the fruit as a genetic monster in a lot of places.

People wouldn't be familiar with it in colder regions and just never touch it.



I'm 23.

I can get some breeding done. But I'd have to make 100% sure that it actually works in crosses with anything mentioned since it's hard to physically verify.

I'm also trying to think of why I wouldn't have heard of Duguetia x Annona crosses, they should overlap sometimes or be grown near each other.

One issue could be that species that overlap, may have different pollinators.

Or, people don't save seeds too often / get rid of off type / weird stuff.


Or, Duguetia has to be the mother, and crosses are rare and intermix into other Duguetia.



Honestly, I think it's worth a shot to grow these and figure out if it actually works.


If it does, I could try and see if mixing an Asimina x Duguetia and Annona x Duguetia would even give me fertile plants.

My friend said they never got that far, and used their plots for other stuff. I think it was eggplants?



If I wanted to do this properly, I'd need to cross Duguetia more than once into some of these - plus cross things back to other parents.

Maybe?


Asimina x Duguetia mixed into Annona x Duguetia, may not even work further down the line.

I doubt there's barriers. If the crosses take, I think they'd be fine and be able to produce flowers.


That was another reason that the project was scrapped earlier on.



When I start this project myself, I won't have any results for awhile.


My current research and things, seems to indicate that Pawpaw seedlings being shipped in from wherever, tend to just die.

They're usually from nurseries in the North, and too many reports mention that they die off in the South.

Other reports say that growing them from seed, and leaving the plants where they will be planted is the best way to start them further down south.


Southern cultivars or specimens also seem to work.

Those are also, harder to obtain.



It's also entirely possible that I need specific Asimina accessions or that I need Self compatible plants.


I don't think I do. But, if I'm going based on word of mouth from a friend, it's probably best to grow multiple accessions of Asimina species.



The other large trouble, was that there aren't many places you can even grow Duguetia in the United States (yeah, not the best place for Duguetia hybrid experiments). And the places that you can, they didn't have fields or anything. They could buy land.

But, their bosses would need to approve some stuff. It would need to be in a place that is large enough and suitable for Duguetia / Annona species grown outdoors, because they wanted to grow multiple species and things just to make sure future fertility in lines was assured.

And, they said that Pawpaws are grown outdoors, and that they couldn't have everything grown in greenhouses constantly.

Wouldn't do well for tests, and could complicate things.


I was told that pollen was being shipped some distances in chilled containers or something.



But yeah. I'm in a "Well, if that's even possible I'd like to try that out a bit."

Zone 8b, isn't a bad place to try that sorta stuff out.


If I managed to get F1 seed in both Asimina and Annona, that's all I'd need.


If it doesn't work, I would still be able to cross Asimina species, which I'd do anyways.



I'm unsure if this interests anyone. But, it seems like fun. By fun, I mean mostly a hobby at first.


I'm going to be growing some other trees. These poor little Pawpaws will have their shade and partial shade.

I don't know if I've mentioned this here, but I want to start a wooded area.

Our new property is up a "hill." I'd call these slopes, but I guess hills work.


We also have more property than we did before.


I'd like to grow a few Castanea and Fraxinus species here - as well as some Pinus species (White pine group).

Species in these genera have species that are endangered or extinct.

The species here, also tend to hybridize freely with each other - which means I could honestly plant a bunch of related species together, and the best plants would eventually win out / thrive.


Then I'd send plants or seed out to others.


I'd also of course select for edible chestnuts and fun hybrids.

There's also groups that WANT hybrids like these to be spread around or sent to them for usages in trials.


I'd ideally get my hands on naturally resistant specimens offspring or I'd be sent plants that are confirmed stable for such traits and mix them in here, eventually send their hybrid offspring with other resistant traits back. A single resistant gene isn't good - multiple ones are.




Maclura tricuspidata and Maclura pomifera plus some relatives would also be grown here. Same thing. These were in different genera at one point.

Anyways, they hybridize freely.


I'd also like some Sorbus and Aronias, maybe some Pyrus species here too. These have been known to form hybrids together.



Metasequoia glyptostroboides, Sequoia sempervirens and Sequoiadendron giganteum.

Once again, some friends said "Yeah these can interbreed to an extent."


Because one of these suffers from inbreeding depression, and the other two have a limited range and also happen to be the last living Redwoods.


I'd like to grow them all, side by side. Why not?


Cupressaceae species that happen to be closely related, are known to interbreed.


Cryptomeria japonica, Taiwania cryptomerioides, Hesperocyparis macrocarpa, Callitropsis nootkatensis, Chamaecyparis thyoides, Cupressus gigantea, Cupressus torulosa, Thujopsis dolabrata, Platycladus orientalis



Sciadopitys verticillata is in the Sciadopityaceae, and the only plant in that family and its genus. It's family is said to be a sister clade to Taxaceae and Cupressaceae. I'd like to grow it as well, just to see if any magic is possible.




Keteleeria evelyniana - I'd also like to grow species in the same family as this fellow.



I may have mentioned this stuff before. But, I feel like not everyone is even aware of some of these species.

Some are natural insecticides and rot resistant. I probably don't need to explain why that's beneficial.


Araucaria species like Monkey Puzzle, I'd grow those out as they're in a family that's a sister to these other fellows mentioned here.





Toona sinensis and Toona ciliata. Plus Cedrela odorata.

Cedrela is from the America's. Toona  is from Asia.


They're both in the Meliaceae family, and in the subfamily Cedreloideae, and in the tribe Cedreleae.

Cedrela odorata is hardy to roughly zone 9. Toona sinensis is hardy to around zone 5 - USDS zones.

Cedrela odorata is rot resistant and tends to act as an insecticide towards termites.


These are closely related and can probably share diseases. So. Yeah, I'd like to cross them as a "do this before they kill each other off with introduced pests and diseases" sorta thing.


That's if they can cross. If they can, I'm assuming people would wanna grow these.




I'd probably grow out some Zelkovas, Sabals, Hovenia, Eriobotrya japonica, Chaenomeles japonica, Cydonia oblonga, Pseudocydonia sinensis, Mespilus germanica - might as well see what all can cross.


Decaisnea fargesii, Cercidiphyllum japonicum, Ginkgo biloba and Eucommia ulmoides. These plants would be here too. A lot of these are living fossil species, I'd like to see how they do in this sorta mixed planting.

Unfortunately, the chances of these outcrossing towards anything are probably slim to none. At least nothing that I can think of.



I also mentioned Asimina and Annona I'm another post.


They would also ideally be grown here.



Toona, Cedrela and the various Redwoods are some of the largest and tallest trees on Earth. Cedrela and one Toona ciliata would be zone pushing here.




The Cupressaceae species. Some of the species I listed are the sole species in their genera, and have survived mass extinction events.

I think two of the species I listed, are only found on Japan and are both from a different genera. If they can outcross with any relative, I'd see that as a win.

Frankly, with living fossils I think that hybridization can save a species or cause it to gain traits that help them spread out to more regions.


Or just make them more suitable to growing in forestry types of places.



I could also grow Musa species and other understory plants at some point.


Yeah, most of these won't be too tall until I'm dead. I'm also pretty sure that if I plant these mentioned species altogether, in a rural area with mostly woods, swamps and a few double wides, that the planting would become some sort of national monument or some researcher or group would buy the plot of land / mark it as something or another.


It's not near anything major either, so I doubt trees would be cut down.


Fairly sure that I touched on this a bit elsewhere.



I'm not forgetting understory plants either. Ideally, natives would be growing there for the most part, or I'd have trails.

Many of these would need proper spacing between them too.


Toona trees may become invasive, as would other species. I'm unsure if Toona sinensis and ciliata are known to hybridize.


I do know that Toona ciliata is a valuable wood, but it's not viable for some plantations.


Toonas can grow as a semi understory tree as well.



If I wanted Redwoods to cross, and for some Toona species and relatives to cross - they'd be able to grow fine together.


Redwoods aren't all great for logging. It's also thought to be why some species weren't heavily harvested despite their large trunks.

Someone could grow Redwoods and things for conservation and plant other trees as far into the future, plantings for harvest. Or plant pawpaws and things under them.


Anyways, these are some fun ideas that have popped into my head.


I would be growing these from seed.


The largest expense would be soil. I save pots, so those wouldn't be an issue for the most part.



The larger trees would be far from the house. Just because.

I've probably spammed this thread up a bit, so I'll let others do whatever and let them post their own stuff.

Some researcher friends said they tell me about stuff and whatnot, because I tend to have good ideas and think outside the box.


Asarum species of some types came to mind when talking about Asimina triloba and its flowers and scent.

There's convergent evolution between these groups, in my opinion.

Small reddish / burgundy flowers which smell of flesh and atteact small flies or beetles, very similarly sized flowers and shape.



Plus the thing with Annona cherimola and some figs.

Either grow Asimina triloba ans Annona cherimola in a way that they'll self graft, or graft them another way.

Or try the rotting meat trick on both species and see if anything happens.

Or try dying some Annona cherimola flowers red.


Some friends saw my post here, and asked me to elaborate more.


I'd ideally make a dye with Asimina triloba flowers and then freeze them or refrigerate them.

Hopefully, it's lovely smelling flowers would stay intact with their chemical compounds.


Then I'd ideally paint or somehow soak Annona cherimola flowers in the dye.


My reasoning, was that my neighbors wouldn't appreciate me hanging dead carrion like others have tried before, to attract pollinators.


Plus, if I can attract Pawpaw pollinators to Annona cherimola, for even a year or two - flies and beetles should learn that these flowers exist, and flock to them.


I'd plant Asarum species as groundcovers around the Pawpaws, they also seem fine in the shade.

Asarum species also have some pollination issues at times.


Having both Asarum and Asimina triloba growing together, would probably give me even more pollinators.

It's probably possible to breed a non toxic Asarum that's usable as a completely non toxic ginger substitute.



This is also apart of why I would say that perhaps a large burgundy flowered, nice smelling Asimina triloba hybrid, may not be ideal. Or a large not so good smelling specimen may not be ideal.


Annona cherimola flowers, are frankly possibly not seen as flowers or as a food source for beetles that go to Asimina triloba flowers. They look pretty different.



I've also been making notes and things on studies of different sorts, plus some other things.


With humans killing some megafauna and other things, they stopped eating some fruits.


It's entirely possible that things like the Osage Orange weren't palatable to humans or maybe not enough people spread seeds, or some things needed stratification or whatever else.


Glaciations already killed off a bunch of Megafauna and other things. Not to mention trees and smaller plants or entire families. Amborella trichopoda and Boquila trifolioata, probably had other species that did similar things at some point.


My hypnosis was that with all of that, it's evident that flies, beetles butterflies and many other species, seem more likely than bees or wasps to have singular relationships with plants.

There are wasps that pollinate figs - some species prefer beetles or other insects.


These will refuse to pollinate other figs usually.

They can be taught to pollinate other fig flowers. But, they'll typically never learn "hey that's food" on their own. Their offspring then learns that same thing, and they adapt to be able to survive well on those.

Typically they'll prefer their main host.

Digging through research is fun.


Some figs may have chemicals that harm other fig wasps and kill them immediately or near immediately.




Some species readily hybridize - including living fossils. I said "It's possible that larger mammals, fruitivores and herbivores dispersed the seeds of many things, and refused to eat some hybrids or weren't as likely to eat smaller specimens, so it didn't happen as often."


I also mentioned that many studied show that some hybrids - Blue Ash with others, won't support frogs as well or other stuff. Some trees that hybridize will produce toxins that kill former insect hosts.


Butterflies and bees that form single species relationships, also don't always like hybrids. With butterflies, some hybrids have toxic flowers and then they run into issues. Or the flowers are different colors and scented differently than their host.


Hummingbirds also count as pollinators.


A lot of species would thus run into issues where they only ate a few species of insects, fossils show that many insects were large. These mammals and whatever else die.


Hybrids between some species become more common, this causes some to have rapid evolution - for others it gives semi sterile plants or nothing will even eat them anymore because they're both toxic, and both parents were widespread.

If nothings eating them, and they keep hybridizing, and spreading too much in small areas due to the lack of dispersal, they'll run into overcrowding and disease.

The lucky ones develop barriers or things to stop them from crossing too much. Others have semi barriers to allow for extra genes every now and again.

Plus, there would be immediate problems of less grazing happening. This can cause forests to grow too much, or eventually issues with overgrazing due to extinct predators or other issues popping up.

Many species are very partial to lighting conditions or soil conditions. Lighting can also eventually change the soil.

In short, massive die offs cause even more massive die offs.



I put stuff like this out, and eventually somehow the stuff made others reach out to me.

So yeah, I have some research friends. Some of them I met later due to them knowing others. But my idea or hypothesis, seemed to intrigue some people, and it's observable today - some friends say it's a probable explanation for some things.

I've asked why they don't chime in on any posts of mine, and one person made a lighthearted "You'll see." comment. Usually get contacted if I post anything of interest.

The you'll see comment, is because some friends have asked me to goto different countries and to work for various facilities. At some point. So some of them think I'll become a researcher or scientist of some sort at some point.



Plus the Toona and redwood idea, along with other stuff - Pawpaws and other species could work into long term logging plantations, mixed with a shade sort of forestry thing. Or partial shade.

Plus sites for growing endangered or underutilized species and breeding shrubs that do very well in the shade.

Maybe some things that help trees grow, and keep up soil fertilities.



Plus creating hybrids with edible crops like Loquat and things.



Bringing in logging equipment or other things, near food crops isn't ideal nor I'd harvesting.


So, you'd have trees that aren't really ever harvested, along with shorter lived trees that grow quickly mixed with trees that are very useful but take awhile to grow.



I've brought similar ideas up to friends before, who have said that there are countries who would like that sort of idea, since they have programs that focus on crops for the future or more sustainable and land conservative growing regimens.



But yeah. I have research friends. They also say that I notice miniscule details very well. And that I'm good at noticing hybrids or oddities. Or of thinking up interesting ideas.


There are many nice logging groups and companies, which replant things and allow half of stands of trees to stay, and let other species and things flourish. That way it can be harvested every few years.


There's also monoculture plantations, and plantations that harvest everything and kill trees that take a long time to grow, all at once and kill the soil.




So, if anyone's wondering where I'm coming from with some of these breeding projects or things, I'd like to breed multiple things at once and have various new or improved crops ready at eventually the same time. Along with great ways to grow them all.

Some friends on Gmail or whatever else have said something about how I needed to use more layman's terms or explain things out even more - or do that and have someone explain it in simpler terms.



This will be the last post for awhile. I'd rather not spam anyone out of here. Hopefully others like these ideas or these give them ideas themselves.

Said the other ideas were my last.


Poncirus trifoliata, grown next to Citrus australasica (there have been highly resistant accessions of this species - by resistant, I mean to citrus greening disease), Kumquat and Yuzu Ichandrin - some other citrus.

Citrus maxima - Pomelo and Citrus medica are also some species I want to grow.


The Australian finger lime, may or may not be cold hardy here.


Zone 8b is zone pushing some of these if I choose to grow them outdoors in the ground.


I'd ideally cross Poncirus trifoliata and the Australian Finger lime, and heavily select into the Finger Lime's direction.


I have some friends who love Pomelo, Yuzu, and Citrus medica species / varieties.

The friend who likes Pomelo doesn't like Grapefruit as much.


I've read that Poncirus trifoliata hybrids tend to be semi resistant to citrus greening, and don't usually die even when infected, can outpace it too.


Because of this, I think that the mentioned cross may be a good idea.


This is probably a more normal post than my others so far.

Hello all,

For many years I have dreamed about creating a Jerusalem artichoke cultivar with a high starch content and low inulin content. Not only a cultivar but, ideally, a collection of landraces to have a diverse gene pool. It would keep all the vigor, high yields, and reliability of regular Jerusalem artichokes but also have those tubers full of starch! The goal would be to emulate potatoes or maybe groundnuts in terms of starch content and versatility. I would also be open to creating a hybrid gene pool within the Helianthus genus if it could be stabilized.

Eric S.

Family:  Poaceae

Subfamily: Panicoideae



× Triticosecale (maybe not as closely related)

Cenchrus americanus

Setaria italica

Eleusine coracana

Echinochloa esculenta

Echinochloa frumentacea

Echinochloa polystachya

Echinochloa stagnina

Echinochloa muricata

Echinochloa oryzoides

Echinochloa crus-pavonis

Echinochloa colonum

Zea mays

Paspalum scrobiculatum

Panicum sumatrense

Panicum miliaceum

Sorghum bicolor

Sorghum × drummondii

Sorghum × almum

Sorghum halepense

Sorghum virgatum.



Alright. I'd like to somehow cross some different genera listed here.

There are some fun corns out there right now.

Such as Zea hybrids which are perennials. Mix that with blue or orange corn - maybe sticky corn. Plus nitrogen fixing nodules and bacteria.


Plus fun branching habits or other stuff.


Sorghum has some hybrids which I've listed up here.

Some of those can be further crossed with each other, making sure not to create anything that's toxic to cattle or anything.


'M61 Survivor' Perennial Sorghum, is one such hybrid.


According to the Experimental Farm Network though, it has survived 12F and came back but didn't survive another year. That was years ago - probably even hardier now after some selection.


One thing to remember with the perennial corn hybrids, is that for most people they'll always be oddities. There aren't any real Zea species that will take well to any snow or frosts even if they're perennials.

Johnson grass, can survive frosts and some lower temperatures.


There's actually a lot of wild Sorghum species which could possibly be crossed into this crop, for frost resistance or other fun stuff.

Plus there's different populations of Johnsongrass.



Panicum miliaceum:

"The crop is notable both for its extremely short lifecycle, with some varieties producing grain only 60 days after planting, and its low water requirements, producing grain more efficiently per unit of moisture than any other grain species tested."

Panicum sumatrense is a cultivated relative of Panicum miliaceum.


Echinochloa esculenta - a less common or well known millet, known as Japanese Barnyard Millet or just as Japanese Millet.

Cold hardy rice varieties have appearently cut down the production of the species in Japan.


Echinochloa frumentacea has also been called Japanese Millet. It's actually cultivated more in Nepal, Pakistan and India. Those three countries usually have some interesting crops not found elsewhere.


Echinochloa polystachya is native to the New World.

Maybe it should be reclassified into another grouping. But, unlike Sorghum and Zea - you can't goto another continent off in the Old World and just find some wild Zea species.

Having species in the same genera, found in a ton of places. If someone could do something similar with what was done to Johnsongrass and Sorghum bicolor. That would be great.

Echinochloa muricata is also native to the New World.


Echinochloa stagnina, was once cultivated by the Fulnai people. It's still cultivated on a small scale in Africa.


Echinochloa crus-pavonis and other wild species are also pretty cool. Echinochloa colonum is the wild ancestor of Echinochloa frumentacea.

Echinochloa oryzoides is well known as well. Not for being a crop. But, for being known as a pest in some cropping systems and even mimicking rice.


To my knowledge, no Echinochloa species is really cultivated for human use / food in North America.

Unlike Corn or Sorghum, or their hybrids - these can be found in some pretty cold locations. Sorghum varies a bit.

But yeah. The whole part of it being in the New World and Old World. Plus it being found in a large range of areas. In crop breeding language, that means that it has a lot of potential.




Paspalum scrobiculatum, Eleusine coracana, Setaria italica and Cenchrus americanus are some other interesting ones.


Not everything mentioned here is in the same subfamily or whatever.


A near universal thing that I've found in interspecific breeding though, is that diverse hybrids of two different groups which are related, have a higher chance than usual of crossing with one another.

Grains would need grown close together, regardless. Specifically ones that cross in blocks or with nearby plants.


Rather than focusing on making wide crosses, I'd grow these near each other and try crossing them with relatives, planting the hybrids with other hybrids and culling things that don't meet some criteria.

I'd probably need to have things sent to labs for study as well. Just for disease resistances and things.

Some of these don't mind or prefer to be waterlogged. Others prefer dry soil.

I feel like someone or myself brought these up.


But, Good-King-Henry, Blitum bonus-henricus: Amaranthaceae - Chenopodioideae - Anserineae.

Spinach, Spinacia oleracea: Amaranthaceae -Chenopodioideae - Anserineae.

Leafy Goosefoot, Blitum virgatum: Amaranthaceae -Chenopodioideae - Anserineae.

Strawberry Blite, Blitum capitatum: Amaranthaceae -Chenopodioideae - Anserineae.

Huauzontle, Red Aztec Spinach, Chenopodium berlandieri: Amaranthaceae - Chenopodium.


Cockscomb, Celosia argentea: Amaranthaceae - Amaranthoideae. (Celosia Variegated, Chinese Wool Flower, Indiana Giant, Yachiyo Hiryu, Yachiyo Karyu). Baker Creek seperates some of these into two species.

Celosia argentea var. spicata: Amaranthaceae - Amaranthoideae. (Asian Garden Celosia, Flamingo Feather, Lagos Spinach).


Amaranth, Amaranthus cruentus:  Amaranthaceae - Amaranthoideae.


Amaranth, Amaranthus tricolor: Amaranthaceae - Amaranthoideae. (Chinese Multicolor Spinach, Pink Beauty).


Amaranth, Amaranthus caudatus: Amaranthaceae - Amaranthoideae. (Dreadlocks, Elena's Rojo, Hopi Red Dye, Love-Lies-Bleeding-Red).


I'd like to try the whole "grow these all side by side and see what happens" thing.


Celosia and Amaranth are very closely related.

Amaranthus caudatus, seems to produce its flowering bunches in a similar way to Strawberry Blite and shares some other traits. I felt that was notable. It's more notable in some varieties than others.

Adaptive Seeds has Chenopodium formosanum and Chenopodium giganteum. Plus Chenopodium quinoa.

Gomphrena species are sold by Baker Creek. Many different varieties are technically also different species.

Members within the Amaranthaceae, have a tendency to widely hybridize within their own genus.


Chinese Wool Flower, is interesting.


I looked at it, and went "Oh, Amaranth."


It's a Celosia. It resembles spiked Celosia, and things like Variegated Celosia and non variegated types with that flowering type.

Asian Garden and Lagos Spinach obviously look different as well. But, they just seem to have smaller flowers.


Some of the smaller spiked types, have flowers which branch into different colors as they grow upwards.


Either way, the globed types aren't as spikey or spikey at all.

For the most part.


Chinese Wool Flower, is also supposedly woolier or has a different flower sort of texture or growth than other Celosia. These seem larger than other Celosia of larger round types as well.

I'd assume that someone crossed the two different types at some point.


Either way, crossing Chinese Wool Flower with Indiana Giant and Variegated Celosia and some other types / species. That seems fun / worthwhile.


Red leaved types of course have an advantage where they contain some nicer nutrients than usual.


Amaranth and Celosia are both used as grains and / or, as leafy vegetables.


I'd assume they share the same pests and can act as disease vectors towards one another.


I see no reason, not to grow numerous species of their genera side by side and hope for the best.

Amaranth fixes nitrogen to some extent. Globe Amaranth does as well. I believe that others also do the same.


I'd place early seed / flower maturity, ability to grow at certain elevations, drought, cold, heat and other tolerances, nutritious qualities, flavor and some other traits high up on a totem pole of things that could be grabbed from relatives.

Many of these are used for seed / grain usage. Flowers and leaves are edible.

Obviously, fixing nitrogen is pretty big.


Atriplex / Orach, are in the same family as well.

Orach pulls salt into its leaves. That's a bonus.

I just finished reading through this thread, it's got some great stuff! I would also love to see many of those developed.

I'm about 3 years into organizing what I assume will be at least a lifelong and hopefully multi-generational cold-hardy avocado breeding project, trying to develop avocado varieties able to survive and fruit in the Cascadian lowlands (USDA zone 8b/9a, sunset zone 5). As far as I know no one has yet succeeded in fruiting an avocado outdoors here. I've heard of some success in greenhouses on Vancouver Island, though, and I know there are some people there also experimenting with them outside, both as part of our project and otherwise.

I distributed ~30 seedling and grafted trees to project members this year, and plan to distribute at least 30 more every year for the foreseeable future, eventually cross pollinating the many allegedly hardy varieties I've been collecting on our greenhouse multi-graft trees.

There are some Avocados that can survive in 8b or 9a.


So, those already exist.

But, some years can have bad frosts.

And, some new diseases have been popping up.


I've moved to Mississippi, semi recently.


A year or so ago.




Some zone 9 plants grow here. It may be closer to 8b here.



Either way, I've also looked into Avocados.



I've been wanting to find seed for Persea schiedeana, which can supposedly hybridize with Persea americana - the common Avocado. It's texture isn't described as being as great as normal types.


And the seed is larger, less flesh. It can also have a coconut taste, on top of the typical Avocado taste.


Wikipedia mentions that most people prefer normal Avocados.


I've heard differently elsewhere. There's a few different accessions and varieties. The species is considered endangered or near endangered.


It's from some mountains, so it could be semi hardy? Again, there are multiple accessions.



There's also a few Persea species native to different parts of North America, with very small fruits.


Persea americana var drymifolia, includes some longer necked Avocados.


There are red skinned, very large Avocados.



Hass Avocados are probably the most commonly sold Avocados out there. They're grown in California and Florida, I believe.


"Tropical Avocados", are usually ones eaten when they're softer, and have some nicer tastes. And they don't last as long as the most common types.

I bought one for my mother before, she said it was bad and she didn't know how to use it.


Litsea garciae, the Engkala. And, Laurus nobilis, the Bay Laurel.

Those are also in the same family as Avocados.

One, of those is used for its fruit.

The fruited is boiled and salted or beaten and the flavor allowed to release.


If you're able to get seed for that, it could be fun to grow it next to Avocados, just to see if anything fun could happen.



I'm unsure if you're looking for hardier tropical Avocados or what.


There are some different groups or subspecies, mainly from certain areas.

I’m hoping to get some fluke avocados grown from grocery store seeds to withstand winters and grow big trees with lots of fruit. And then I want that fruit to store well.

Garrett Schantz wrote:There are some Avocados that can survive in 8b or 9a.


So, those already exist..

Not every 8b or 9a is created equal! Usually when we get a bad freeze in winter, it lasts for many days, often with the high temperature below freezing the entire time, even if the low temperature is in the low 20s or upper teens (so 9a or 8b low temperatures). Those freezes also occur when soil temperatures are low, soil is fully saturated at the surface. Sometimes accompanied by strong winds and/or multiple days of continuous snow.

Those kind of freeze events are basically unheard of in Gulf Coast or eastern U.S. zones 8b/9a, but they happen here at least a few times per decade, and sometimes multiple times in a single winter.

Additionally, even when we aren't having one of those arctic fronts, the normal winter temperatures are below freezing on dozens and dozens of nights each winter, and the normal low temperature is rarely above the low 40s (°F), with highs rarely above 50°F.

As a result, most "cold-hardy" avocados are ill-equipped to survive here, despite the USDA growing zone being the same as places where they do grow. And that's why I didn't say "able to survive in zone 8b," but rather able to survive in the Cascadian lowlands specifically.

I'm attaching charts showing the last 2 years of temperatures here in my yard, plus the worst freeze since I started the avocado breeding project, 6 days in late December 2021 starting and ending with nights in the teens, 6 inches of snow on the ground, and highs below or barely above freezing each day. The second day, the high was only 25°F.

Bethany Brown wrote:I’m hoping to get some fluke avocados grown from grocery store seeds to withstand winters and grow big trees with lots of fruit. And then I want that fruit to store well.

If you'd rather get some seedlings of hardy varieties, feel free to sign up! You are in the area of our project, and I distribute seedlings every spring. Next year it's mostly Del Rio seedlings, but also some others. Here's the sign-up page, it's free but we do already have more members than I've got trees for next spring, so can't guarantee everyone signing up from this point would get one this time around.

Join the Drymifolia Collective

Winn Sawyer wrote:

Garrett Schantz wrote:There are some Avocados that can survive in 8b or 9a.


So, those already exist..

Not every 8b or 9a is created equal! Usually when we get a bad freeze in winter, it lasts for many days, often with the high temperature below freezing the entire time, even if the low temperature is in the low 20s or upper teens (so 9a or 8b low temperatures). Those freezes also occur when soil temperatures are low, soil is fully saturated at the surface. Sometimes accompanied by strong winds and/or multiple days of continuous snow.

Those kind of freeze events are basically unheard of in Gulf Coast or eastern U.S. zones 8b/9a, but they happen here at least a few times per decade, and sometimes multiple times in a single winter.

Additionally, even when we aren't having one of those arctic fronts, the normal winter temperatures are below freezing on dozens and dozens of nights each winter, and the normal low temperature is rarely above the low 40s (°F), with highs rarely above 50°F.

As a result, most "cold-hardy" avocados are ill-equipped to survive here, despite the USDA growing zone being the same as places where they do grow. And that's why I didn't say "able to survive in zone 8b," but rather able to survive in the Cascadian lowlands specifically.

I'm attaching charts showing the last 2 years of temperatures here in my yard, plus the worst freeze since I started the avocado breeding project, 6 days in late December 2021 starting and ending with nights in the teens, 6 inches of snow on the ground, and highs below or barely above freezing each day. The second day, the high was only 25°F.

The temperature Highs and lows are still the same though.


Either way. I understand freezes and things, I lived in Zone 6a, until last year.


But yeah, there are types that are hardy down to around 10F - 20F.


Mexicola Grande, is considered hardy to USDA Zone 8a.


Snow, is actually helpful.


In Mississippi, if there's an unexpected frost that happens every few years - one happened when we moved here, then a lot of things can die.


A bunch of neighbors shrubs died. Snow, insulates the roots of plants.


Mississippi being a swamp in many areas, including where I live.

Trees and shrubs can and probably will, sit inside of water.



Mexicola Grande, is from Mexico and probably prefers drier soils and things than what Mississippi has.


Brogdon Avocado, supposedly does well with humidity and the like. Supposedly cold hardy.

To around 25F. Which is great for Avocados.


But, like you. That's not super great.


It's technically Zone 8a where I live - but things coin out more to 8b - 9a. It's 8a due to older charts from certain periods where things got colder.


We were already on a sort of intermediate area according to some maps as well - between what eventually became 8a / b on charts.



Buying Avocados from the store, will likely give you Hass Avocados. Most of the time, they're grown with other Hass Avocados.


They're more genetically diverse than other Avocados, apparently. So maybe they have some hidden cold resistance traits.


But, Hass isn't even advised for Zone 8b.

9a and up. That's its recommendation.



So, if anyone is wanting to save seed for this purpose.

I would look for things other than Hass.




Mexicola, Stewart, Jim Bacon, and Zutano

Mexicola is probably a bare minimum tolerance of 18F.


Stewart, would be somewhere in the mid 20F range. Considered to be 9a hardy - might survive lower. Maybe.

Jim Bacon is 26F.

Zutano is more or less at 25F for its minimum temperature range.



Mexicola Grande, is obviously the winner here. I'm assuming it would do well in your area / region as well.


I'm likely going to try it out, even if it's not a fan of the climate here.

I can probably get away with some other types as well.


But, I'd like to grow one that won't die from a sudden colder frost, within a few years from now.


25 to 28 degrees - it can still get to these ranges every few years. Neighbors told us that we'd cursed them from the North and it had been over a decade since their last killing freeze. This year may be bad too.



Now, there's also Lila. Not Lula. They sound similar.

Lila, is hardy down to around 15F. That's a few degrees lower than Mexicola Grande.

Joey has withstood temperatures as low as 15F / 18F.


Multiple websites have recommended growing both varieties.



One is a "Type A Flower", the other is a "Type B Flower." Avocados like to outcross. And there are different flowering types.


Del Rio is also there at around 15F.





Del Rio
Fantastic
Mexicola
Mexicola grande
Wilma
Martin
Joey
Poncho
Gloria
May
Opal/Lila

Joey
Fantastic
Lila/Opal
Pancho/Poncho
Brazos Belle/Wilma
May
Del Rio
Gloria
Gainesville
Mexicola/Mexicola Grande
Brogdon
Winter Mexican

There are from lists elsewhere on Permies.


Some have duplicate names. Anyways.


If you can order any of these or look into them, having trees right off the bat, and then growing semi hardy types in pots and letting them cross pollinate.


That may be an option.



Avocados are just pretty up there in how expensive they are. And the chances of finding a single cold hardy seedling out of a non hardy type, could be a one in a thousand chance.



I've actually been thinking of growing Medlar and some things but somehow forgot about Avocados.

Those things are horribly expensive at the supermarket, yet they're possible to grow here - outdoors.

Garrett Schantz wrote:

The temperature Highs and lows are still the same though.

Trust me, temperature alone does not tell the whole story. An avocado that could survive 14°F in a brief freeze that is followed by warmth might be killed by a low of 20°F during an entire week without any temperatures above freezing. Hardiness always depends not only on the low, but also the duration.

I'm speaking from experience! I have over 30 grafted varieties and have already started hundreds of "cold-hardy" seedlings over the last 3 years. So far zero of them have survived above ground without protection, even some older trees planted out from 15 gal. Even the roots have often died, though I've had a few that keep regrowing from the roots each year.

But yeah, there are types that are hardy down to around 10F - 20F.

Mexicola Grande, is considered hardy to USDA Zone 8a.

Considered by whom? And have you personally tested those claims? Many of the claims about avocados are being made by nurseries trying to sell trees, and there are not many studies that have tested them. I've spoken to dozens of people who bought allegedly cold-hardy avocado trees like Mexicola, Mexicola Grande, Stewart, Poncho, etc., and planted them here in Cascadia and they died the first winter. In 3 years of this project, I've yet to meet anyone who has successfully grown a single avocado tree outdoors in our climate. While you can find AI generated articles and nursery listings claiming some varieties have extreme hardiness, take them with a grain of salt. So far, none are able to survive in lowland Cascadia.

Snow, is actually helpful.

Snow, insulates the roots of plants.

This is true for the roots, but windy conditions combined with snow will usually increase the frost damage to the parts above ground.

If you're buying things from nurseries, you do need to probably let plants adjust to growing in a colder area.

I'd personally suggest growing seeds from cold hardy type.


Roots need established pretty well in your climate, and they need to adjust to winds and things.


I dislike purchasing from nurseries, myself. Some species won't adjust until all of their leaves die off.


Which also usually means less root growth and things.


For Avocados, I'd get something bare root, if that's a thing and plant them mid spring or earlier when chances of cold are gone.



That way they experience some cold.

Winn Sawyer wrote:

Bethany Brown wrote:I’m hoping to get some fluke avocados grown from grocery store seeds to withstand winters and grow big trees with lots of fruit. And then I want that fruit to store well.

If you'd rather get some seedlings of hardy varieties, feel free to sign up! You are in the area of our project, and I distribute seedlings every spring. Next year it's mostly Del Rio seedlings, but also some others. Here's the sign-up page, it's free but we do already have more members than I've got trees for next spring, so can't guarantee everyone signing up from this point would get one this time around.

Join the Drymifolia Collective

I would definitely be interested! I’m not in the lowlands, so I’m not sure if I fit your demographic. We’re at 700 feet and get ice and snow at times when town that’s at like 50 ft has none. We’ve been snowed in for a week at a time a few times in the last four years. Do you think your trees will handle that?

Bethany Brown wrote:
I would definitely be interested! I’m not in the lowlands, so I’m not sure if I fit your demographic. We’re at 700 feet and get ice and snow at times when town that’s at like 50 ft has none. We’ve been snowed in for a week at a time a few times in the last four years. Do you think your trees will handle that?

Probably not! But, as I've been trying to explain in this thread, the vast, vast majority of "cold-hardy" avocado trees I've been distributing and will continue distributing will probably not survive anywhere in our region, even in pretty warm microclimates. Feel free to sign up even if you're outside the strict area, and once I figure out the most equitable/best way to pick who is eligible for trees in our region, I'll be sharing it with the group.

At this point I'm mostly limiting it to people who are in at least USDA zone 8b according to this 2012 version of the map, which roughly corresponds to Sunset Zones 4 and 5 on this map, with a preference for sunset zone 5 but not required. Other people in colder parts of our region may not get trees as soon, but over time I hope we'll have enough extras to care less about focusing on areas with the greatest chance of success.

Garrett Schantz wrote:If you're buying things from nurseries, you do need to probably let plants adjust to growing in a colder area.

I'd personally suggest growing seeds from cold hardy type.

That is what I've been doing for a few years now! I've grown seeds of allegedly hardy types, I've purchased both scionwood and grafted trees, and I've babied some of them while giving tough love to others. So far, no matter when they are planted, any trees that are not protected fail to make it through our winter without dying back either to ground level or a few inches above ground level, and more than half of these "cold-hardy" trees die completely in our climate, roots and all!

Some promising specimens have survived with only "minimal" protection, though, like an unheated cover over them on just the worst freezing nights, but a few others have died even with protection! This is why I'm organizing a breeding/selection effort and I'm growing multi-graft "mother" trees in my greenhouse to hopefully produce seeds for many years or even decades to come, so I can keep distributing trees until we find some that actually can grow here. But so far, none of the allegedly cold-hardy avocados that we've tested are able to do so.

Winn, on the map I would be 8b. I’d love to give it a try

Bethany Brown wrote:Winn, on the map I would be 8b. I’d love to give it a try

Great! Just sign up on the website with an email address and you'll start getting project updates whenever I get around to sending my next one! Tree distribution will likely be in early or mid spring. One big change not mentioned there, though, is after the logistical nightmare of driving trees all over western WA this spring, I'm going to switch to asking people to come to Seattle to pick up their tree(s), though I'll encourage people in each area to pick up trees for other members in their area who can't make it to Seattle as easily.

Jordy Buck wrote:I've been working on a corn project I call Wolverine corn, previously squirrel corn. The goal is a cool- hardy, semi-drought tolerant, long season, high grain production, very dark brown flint corn. I guess it's not too wild. I want a good 12 foot+ tall stalk so there's a lot for my pig bedding or composting. It has to be high production, tall stalked, not be susceptible to common molds, and high protein (used a mix of high protein flint corn for the base). The goal is a super homestead crop. High protein and a lot of useable stalk. The solid, dark brown color is just because I think it's neat.

  This is very similar to my grain corn grex goals.  I'm in South West South Dakota only 12" of water and want tall corn for carbon cycling and feed and beding for the goats. Didn't plan on it being brown though.  I don't know what I'm doing but I started with a bunch of tall silage corns.  Next year I am adding a local Grazing Corn it is short but ALL the low water dryland corns I'm finding are short (5') Plants.  Like to be able to grow all the corn for the chickens / goats / ducks / sheep etc.  on site. Be great if someday the ears could be fed on the cob as the kernels fall off easy.  Less work for me.   Tom

This idea started as an autocorrect and extended joke in a group text. Now I’m obsessed and must do it. I need to breed a melon that is white with black mottling like a Holstein cow. Brown spots will do if black is not possible. The flesh needs to be white and I think it should taste like vanilla ice cream. I found a few varieties that have rind patterns that might get me in the right direction. Anyone ever taste a melon that reminded you of vanilla ice cream?

Still new to all this, but I'm so here for this thread. I love that people are dreaming big and talking about multi-generational projects.

My biggest dream right now is pinyon pines that can compete/survive better with junipers despite climate change. And produce nuts every year like it's a mast year. And bigger nuts, with a higher percentage of them filled, and that are easier to harvest. If even one or two of those those goals is achievable, then huge areas in the US Southwest could produce vast quantities of human food without irrigation, or much human intervention at all after establishment, and probably with minimal disruption to the non-human ecosystem.

Someone already mentioned Chenopodium quinoa x album, which I'd also be thrilled about. In the same family, Amaranthus cruentus x retroflexus might also be cool if the "spiky" trait from retroflexus could be bred out. C. album and A. retroflexus are "weeds" here, and are both considered edible although they sure taste like weeds to me. Anything that can grow in this climate and is edible is a miracle plant as far as I'm concerned, and if and when I figure out how to cross and cultivate these things, I'm willing to sink a lot of time into trying. I'd love to hear from any other nerds in this thread about how I might go about doing that, or swap/buy seeds from anyone who's trying!

I recently had the idea of domesticating hobblebushes for fruit. They are so delicious—I wonder if after a few decades of breeding we would end up with something like a small plum?

I would love to have one of the "potato leaf" tomato varieties that had vining tendencies with tendrils like peas or cukes. My tomatoes do so much better now that I've quit using tomato cages and stakes and starting supporting the plants using 8' sections of cattle panel. Better air circulation so I have fewer bugs and less disease. But I have to tie the plants up every couple days. It would be sweet to reduce the amount of time I spend on that garden task.
I have a friend whose dream is to breed an edible sweet corn with kernels the color of glass gem corn. He's given me some seed to plant this season and it's truly gorgeous